yaddayadda

Joined

• started 89 topics
• posted 1,035 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by yaddayadda

• 
  93

  Christianity did NOT borrow from pagan "Dying-Rising" God motifs

  by yaddayadda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  it is a fallacy that the early christians weaved the tale of a dying and rising god-man on the loom of mystery religions.

  the idea of the dying-rising god as a parallel to the christian concept of the death and resurrection of christ was popularized by james frazer in the golden bough, first published in 1906. scholar edwin yamauchi (1974; easter: myth, hallucination, or history?

  ) has observed that, although frazer marshaled many parallels, the foundation was very fragile and has been discredited by a host of scholars since frazers ideas were at the height of their popularity in the 1960s.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  It is a fallacy that the early Christians weaved the tale of a dying and rising God-man on the loom of mystery religions.
  
  The idea of the dying-rising god as a parallel to the Christian concept of the death and resurrection of Christ was popularized by James Frazer in ‘The Golden Bough’, first published in 1906. Scholar Edwin Yamauchi (1974; “Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?”) has observed that, although Frazer marshaled many parallels, the foundation was very fragile and has been discredited by a host of scholars since Frazer’s ideas were at the height of their popularity in the 1960’s.
  
  To take just one example, on the Osiris myth, Bruce Metzger (1968; “Historical and Literary Studies: Pagan, Jewish and Christian") observes, “Whether this can rightly be called a resurrection is questionable, especially since, according to Plutarch, it was the pious desire of devotees to be buried in the same ground where, according to local tradition, the body of Osiris was still lying.”
  
  Yamauchi agrees: “It is a cardinal misconception to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the “resurrection” of Hebrew-Christian traditions. In order to achieve immortality the Egyptian had to fulfill three conditions: (1) His body had to be preserved, hence mummification. (2) Nourishment had to be provided either by the actual offering of daily bread and beer, or by the magical depiction of food on the walls of the tomb. (3) Magical spells had to be interred with the dead – Pyramid Texts in the Old Kingdom, Coffin Texts in the Middle Kingdom, and the Book of the Dead in the New Kingdom. Moreover, the Egyptian did not rise from the dead; separate entities of his personality such as his Ba and his Ka continued to hover about his body.”
  
  A little research will likewise prove that any alleged parallels between Jesus resurrection and Tammuz (Adonis), and Cybele and Attis, are tenuous and weak.
  
  In fact, that the mystery religions prior to Christianity even had the tale of a dying and rising god-man is it itself a myth. Ronald Nash (2003; ‘The Gospel and the Greeks’) sums up the evidence about all these gods of the mystery religions and their alleged resurrections”
  
  “ Which mystery gods actually experienced a resurrection from the dead? Certainly no early texts refer to any resurrection of Attis. Attempts to link the worship of Adonis to a resurrection are equally weak. Nor is the case for a resurrection of Osiris any stronger. After Isis gathered together the pieces of Osiris’s dismembered body, he became “Lord of the Underworld.” As Metzger comments, “Whether this can be rightly called a resurrection is questionable, especially since according to Plutarch, it was the pious desire of devotees to be buried in the same ground where, according to local tradition, the body of Osiris was still lying.” One can speak, then, of a “resurrection” in the stories of Osiris, Attis, and Adnonis only in the most extended of senses. And of course no claim can be made that Mithras was a dying and rising god. French scholar Andrew Boulanger concludes: “The conception that the god dies and is resurrection in order to lead his faithful to eternal life is represented in no Hellenistic mystery religion.”
  <br><br>Nash’s study on the mystery religions shows the contrast between them and Christianity. He notes six points of contrast between the death and resurrection of the savior-gods of the mysteries and the resurrection of Christ:
  
  1 “None of the so-called savior-gods died for someone else. The notion of the Son of God dying in place of His creatures is unique to Christianity.”
  2 “Only Jesus died for sin. As Wagner observed, to none of the pagan gods ‘has the intention of helping men been attributed. The sort of death that they died is quite different (hunting accident, self-emasculation, etc.)’ “
  3 “Jesus died once and for all (Heb 7:27; 9:25-28). In contrast, the mystery gods were vegetation deities who repeated death and resuscitation depict the annual cycle of nature.”
  4 “Jesus’ death was an actual event in history. The death of the god described in the pagan cults is a mythical drama with no historical ties; its continued rehearsal celebrates the recurring death and rebirth of nature. The incontestable fact that the early church believed that its proclamation of Jesus’ death and resurrection was grounded upon what actually happened in history makes absurd any attempt to derive this belief from the mythical, nonhistorical stories of the pagan cults.”
  5 “Unlike the mystery gods, Jesus died voluntarily. Nothing like the voluntary death of Jesus can be found in the mystery cults.”
  6 And finally, Jesus’ death was not a defeat but a triumph. Christianity stands entirely apart from the pagan mysteries in that its report of Jesus’ death is a message of triumph. Even as Jesus was experiencing the pain and humiliation of the cross, He was the victor. The New Testament’s mood of exultation contrasts sharply with that of the mystery religions, whose followers wept and mourned for the terrible fate that overtook their gods.”
  
  Walter Kunneth (1965; "The Theology of the Resurrection") sums it up: “It is superficial and unfounded to say that the study of the history of religion has shown the dependence of the resurrection of Jesus on mythology. On the contrary, it is precisely the comparison with the history that gives rise to the strongest objections to any kind of mythifying of the resurrection of Jesus.”
• 
  55

  Will Lack of Leadership Sink the JW Ship?

  by Seeker4 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i see serious problems with the leadership of the witnesses on two important levels: locally, in smaller bodies of elders with marginally qualified men carrying heavier workloads, and internationally in a lackluster and unimaginative governing body.

  there are no nathan knorrs, or fred or ray franz's in this pathetic group!

  first, the local elders: .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  Nup. I think one of the problems with the org is there are TOO MANY leaders! There are too many heirarchies of people with unscriptural titles and roles, MS's, circuit overseers, DO's, Branch overseers, pioneers, committees, etc, etc. This is why nothing changes for the better in the org....it has become a huge, ponderous beaucratic machine the likes of which the USSR would have been proud of. It's like a giant oil-tanker that takes 5 miles to turn around or pick up any inertia.
  
  The Society needs to get rid of all these cumbersome 'middle manager' roles and simplify things. It needs to abandon structuring itself like a global corporation (which it utterly is) with all these layers of 'leaderships' and get back to the basic, humble arrangement found in the bible.
  
  Basically it needs to go back to the old, simple pre-Rutherford structure, without all these rings of centralised control.
• 
  10

  Why is the Faithful and Discreet Slave thanked in every prayer?

  by RULES & REGULATIONS in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  every prayer at any meal,congregation meeting,and assemblyhas the fds being thanked for the spiritual food that they provide.jesus gave us an example on who to pray to and what to say.the society or any human were not included and was not ever mentioned by jesus.the society has always included themselves in prayers.

  .

  do you think that by including themselves in every prayer,they intentionally try to inculcate that into each brain,so that their powers are never questioned?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  It's probably fair to say the FDS/org gets more mention in prayers than Jesus.
• 
  28

  What other ancient Greek Manuscripts contained the divine name?

  by yaddayadda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the society in appendix 1a of their 'kingdom interlinear translation of the christian greek scriptures' refers to nine other greek manuscripts as containing the divine name, and they quote from jerome as referring to certain 'greek volumes' containing the tetragrammaton.

  can anyone shed any light on what these greek manuscripts and volumes are and their dates of writing?

  here is what the society says in full: .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  I agree Jringe. But I would say they should not have inserted 'Jehovah' at all in the NT in those places where they are not quoting directly from the OT.
  
  If they have faith that Jehovah has preserved his word accurately they must assume that Jehovah never intended his name to go where there is no evidence whatsoever that it was ever there in the first place.
• 
  28

  What other ancient Greek Manuscripts contained the divine name?

  by yaddayadda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the society in appendix 1a of their 'kingdom interlinear translation of the christian greek scriptures' refers to nine other greek manuscripts as containing the divine name, and they quote from jerome as referring to certain 'greek volumes' containing the tetragrammaton.

  can anyone shed any light on what these greek manuscripts and volumes are and their dates of writing?

  here is what the society says in full: .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  ps - Thank you very much Moggy Lover for those references.
• 
  28

  What other ancient Greek Manuscripts contained the divine name?

  by yaddayadda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the society in appendix 1a of their 'kingdom interlinear translation of the christian greek scriptures' refers to nine other greek manuscripts as containing the divine name, and they quote from jerome as referring to certain 'greek volumes' containing the tetragrammaton.

  can anyone shed any light on what these greek manuscripts and volumes are and their dates of writing?

  here is what the society says in full: .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  My opinion is that the Society is probably justified in inserting 'Jehovah' in the New Testament wherever the bible writer is directly quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures, despite the lack of any extant copies of NT manuscripts that contain the divine name. But they have gone too far in adding 'Jehovah' in other places in the NT.
• 
  21

  Is the Watchtower happy being stagnant?

  by RULES & REGULATIONS in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  stagnant.

  adj.not moving or flowing; motionless.

  foul or stale from standing: stagnant ponds.showing little or no sign of activity or advancement; not developing or progressing; inactive: a stagnant economy the sunday talks are copy and paste .the watchtower study is the same.ask the preprinted questions and answer.the ministry school is reading the same parts of the bible.the service program has the same dull presentations.the book study has some books being read 3 - 4 times.. is the watchtower society happy with being stagnant and just going thru the motions?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  Hi Brant. Yes I do believe they sincerely believe it themselves. I think some of the GB have doubts about certain of their own teachings and doubts about the timing aspect of things, but overall I think they believe it all hook line and sinker, because they have quite convincing scriptural arguments for nearly all of it.
  
  I don't believe any of them think it is a 'scam' in the usual sense of the word.
• 
  71

  A Letter to the Governing Body

  by truthsetsonefree in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (km 6/03 p. 1 par.

  9 building for an eternal future, w87 2/1 p. 15 par.

  (km 11/88 p. 4 par.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  Great letter and very sincere. I think any elder feeling the pressure could relate to it.
  
  You are, however, at serious risk of being accused of apostasy for what will be perceived to be an attack on Watchtower doctrine and the GB. There are some pretty strong statements by you in that regard. A JC will likely ensue.
  
  The 11th commandment for JW's is 'thou shalt not criticise the Watchtower Society or its doctrines'.
• 
  28

  What other ancient Greek Manuscripts contained the divine name?

  by yaddayadda in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the society in appendix 1a of their 'kingdom interlinear translation of the christian greek scriptures' refers to nine other greek manuscripts as containing the divine name, and they quote from jerome as referring to certain 'greek volumes' containing the tetragrammaton.

  can anyone shed any light on what these greek manuscripts and volumes are and their dates of writing?

  here is what the society says in full: .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  The Society in appendix 1a of their 'Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures' refers to Nine other Greek manuscripts as containing the divine name, and they quote from Jerome as referring to certain 'Greek volumes' containing the Tetragrammaton.
  
  Can anyone shed any light on what these Greek manuscripts and volumes are and their dates of writing?
  
  Here is what the Society says in full:
  
  " From the photographs of 12 fragments of this papyrus roll our readers may examine these occurrences of the Tetragrammaton in such an early copy of LXX. Authorities fix the date for this papyrus as the first century B.C.E., that is, about two centuries after the LXX was begun. This proves that the original LXX did contain the divine name wherever it occurred in the Hebrew original. Nine other Greek manuscripts also contain the divine name. - See NW Ref. Bi., PP. 1562-1564.
  
  Did Jesus Christ, and those of his disciples who wrote the Christian Greek Scriptures, have at hand copis of the Greek Septuagint with the divine name appearing therein in the form of the Tetragrammaton? Yes! The Tetragrammaton persisted in copies of LXX for centuries after Christ and his apostles. Sometime during the first half of the second century C.E., when Aquila's own Greek version was produced, it also showed the Tetragrammaton in archaic Hebrew letters.
  
  Jerome, of the fourth and fifth centuries C.E., in his prologue to the books of Samuel and Kings, said: "And we find the name of God, the Tetragrammaton [inserted], in certain Greek volumes even to this day expressed in ancient letters." Thus down to the time of Jerome, the chief translator who produced the Latin Vulgate, there were Greek manuscripts of translations of the Hebrew Scriptures that still contained the divine name in its four Hebrew charactors. "
  
  Obviously the appearance of the tetragrammaton in this very early copy of the Septuagint doesn't prove that the 'original' LXX contained the tetragrammaton, nor does it categorically mean that Jesus and the writers of the NT had at hand the LXX with the divine name, as the Society contends. The most it could mean is that the original LXX could have contained the tetragrammaton and Jesus and the NT writers could have had at hand an LXX with the divine name in it (and my personal view is that it was likely they did). But my concern is just to know more about these 'nine other Greek manuscripts' the Society refers to (as I don't have a NW Reference Bible) and the 'certain Greek Volumes' that Jerome refers to.
  
  
  Much thanks
  Yadda
• 
  5

  E-watchman replaces Watchtower's weirdness with his own

  by yaddayadda in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  robert king discredits the wt societys 1914 teaching and in one of his latest essays has now attacked their parousia theory that goes hand in hand with the 1914 teaching.

  good job, you might say.

  however, he has come up with a couple of radical new interpretations that seem just as bizarre as the societys teaching about christs presence.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  yaddayadda

  Robert King discredits the WT Society’s 1914 teaching and in one of his latest essays has now attacked their ‘parousia’ theory that goes hand in hand with the 1914 teaching. Good job, you might say. However, he has come up with a couple of radical new interpretations that seem just as bizarre as the Society’s teaching about Christ’s presence.
  
  He states that the ‘two witnesses’ (the remnant of the anointed) during the Great tribulation will literally see Christ, in a manner similar to the transfiguration:
  
  “The two witnesses are also commissioned to prophesy, as was John, indicating that the John class is the same as the two witnesses. The designation of “two witnesses” signifies that they will have visibly witnessed the very presence of Christ, just as Peter, James and John visibly witnessed the transfiguration and John also witnessed Christ in the vision of Revelation.”
  
  Furthermore, he feels that the anointed themselves will be literally transfigured, like Moses was when he emitted rays, before they are taken to heaven:
  
  “The sons of God shining like the sun in the kingdom of Jehovah means that they will have been fully accepted into the then-established kingdom; and not only that, but they will have conferred upon them the very glory of Christ – a glory that they will then reflect to illuminate others – those who have not allowed themselves to have become blinded by Satan. In a miraculous manifestation reminiscent of Moses, the anointed will then be transfigured so as to radiate Jehovah’s glory in their own faces and in that way the sons of God will be revealed before creation as an earthly reflection of the glorious revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.”
  
  Pretty odd wouldn’t you say. Even fundies expecting to be taken up in the rapture would find these interpretations bizarre.