deleted - double post.
yaddayadda
JoinedPosts by yaddayadda
-
11
WTS's two 'classes' of Christians is completely artificial
by yaddayadda inplease read the below excerpt from a 1996 questions from readers on the difference between the little flock and other sheep.
the article makes it very clear that both classes receive the holy spirit and there is absolutely no discernible difference whatsoever between the 'anointed' and the 'other sheep'.
the society is well aware there is no practical difference at all between these two so-called 'classes' of jw christians.
-
-
-
11
WTS's two 'classes' of Christians is completely artificial
by yaddayadda inplease read the below excerpt from a 1996 questions from readers on the difference between the little flock and other sheep.
the article makes it very clear that both classes receive the holy spirit and there is absolutely no discernible difference whatsoever between the 'anointed' and the 'other sheep'.
the society is well aware there is no practical difference at all between these two so-called 'classes' of jw christians.
-
-
yaddayadda
Exactly, Leolaia.
Even if there were two 'classes', there is no scriptural justification whatsoever to restrict partaking of the emblems to only one 'class'.
In fact, the Society even states that the 'great crowd' inherit 'the kingdom' - just the earthly 'realm' of the kingdom rather than the heavenly 'realm':
*** w99 3/1 18 "The Temple" and "the Chieftain" Today ***
21 It is not only the chieftain and the priesthood who have assigned places in this restored land. The dividing of the land shows that each one of the 12 tribes has a secure inheritance. (Ezekiel 47:13, 22, 23) So those of the great crowd not only have a place in the spiritual paradise today but will also receive an assignment of land when they inherit a place in the earthly realm of God’s Kingdom
*** w97 9/15 20 Who Will Survive "the Day of Jehovah"? ***
If you yearn to live forever in an earthly paradise, you must demonstrate heartfelt support for true worship, as Jehonadab did. Then you may be among Jehovah’s faithful servants, who will soon experience the fulfillment of Jesus’ words: “Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.”—Matthew 25:34.
If they 'great crowd' still 'inherit the kingdom' according to Matthew 25:34 then why continue the sham of denying them the emblems?
The confusion lies in the Society's very narrow interpretation of what 'the kingdom' is: that it is a heavenly 'government' for a small minority of Christians. They are bending the entire Christian Greek scriptures around Luke 22:28-30 and a couple of verses in Revelation. -
4
1935 teaching ...does this scripture apply?
by ninja in(matthew 23:13-14) 13 woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites!
because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
-
-
yaddayadda
The dropping of the 1935 teaching doesn't change the fact that the Society still teaches there are two 'classes' of Christians, a heavenly class and an earthly class.
So that scripture would be better suited to those who want to attack that distinction, not the 1935 date as such. -
3
Mennonites, Waldenses, etc, didn't use the name 'Jehovah'.
by yaddayadda inmy understanding is that the society suggests that various christian groups that popped up here and there during the christian era, such as the waldenses, etc, likely contained 'wheat-like' christians, ie, anointed ones with the heavenly calling.
the basis for assuming this is because these groups taught certain similar doctrines that jw's do today that makes them stand out from broader christendom (anti-trinity, etc).
the argument is that these groups read the bible for themselves, saw that the big churches had some things wrong, but were soon persecuted and crushed by the powerful false religious 'weeds'.
-
-
yaddayadda
Found this from 1965, although it seems they are less generous in more recent statements on the subject:
*** w65 3/15 191-2 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
ó Have there been witnesses of Jehovah on earth in every period of human history? What about the Dark Ages?
It does not appear wise to answer these questions dogmatically. However, it does seem that reason and the facts of history, together with what God’s Word has to say, allow for the conclusion that there have been witnesses of Jehovah on earth in every period of human history.
The mere fact that only three Witnesses are mentioned by name before the Flood does not mean that there may not have been others. It is quite probable that Abel was married at the time he was a faithful Witness and so his wife could have continued being a Witness after his death. And then there was Lamech; for him to utter the inspired prophecy about his son Noah he also must have been a witness of Jehovah.—Gen. 5:29.
After the Flood we find faithful Shem surviving until Abraham’s day. And were not Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Job faithful witnesses, even as must have been the parents of Moses? With the forming of the nation of Israel the entire nation became a nation of witnesses, even as Jehovah shows at Isaiah 43:10-12. That nation continued as witnesses of Jehovah until 36 C.E.
That Jehovah has also had witnesses on earth from Christ’s time until our day seems to be indicated by Jesus’ parable of the wheat and weeds as recorded at Matthew chapter thirteen. Therein Jesus stated that both the wheat and the weeds would continue growing together until the harvest, when a separation would take place. This parable may be taken to imply that during all this time, from the first sowing until the harvest, there would be some genuine Christians, “wheat,” even though at times their number might be exceedingly small.
Thus throughout the centuries there have been professed Christians who rejected the error of the trinity, usually called “Arians.” There were those who closely followed primitive Christianity and who were known as quartodecimans because of celebrating Christ’s memorial on Nisan 14, holding out against the paganizing trend of Rome. Then there were the Paulicians from the seventh century onward, whose teachings have been termed “genuine apostolic Bible-Christianity.” They stood solely by the “New Testament,” practiced adult baptism, believed that God in his love had sent an angel to earth who at his baptism became God’s Son. They rejected unscriptural tradition, had no clergy-laity distinction, refused to revere the cross.
Then there were the Waldenses from the twelfth century forward, who had much in common with the previous Paulicians in rejecting all false tradition such as purgatory, the mass, and so forth, and adhering closely to the Bible, although they did not limit themselves to the so-called “New Testament.” The only two ceremonies they recognized were baptism and the Lord’s evening meal. They strictly followed Bible principles regarding morality and refused to celebrate popular religious holidays such as Palm Sunday, Easter, All Saints’ Day, and so forth. Typical is the statement of one of them, who was martyred, that ‘the Cross should not be prayed to but loathed as the instrument of the Just One’s death.’
Many were the Arians, Paulicians and Waldenses, not to mention others, who because of their Bible-based religion suffered martyrdom. Not that this in itself or together with their beliefs, as noted in the foregoing, indicated that all of them had God’s approval. Why not? Because time and again not a few of these took up the sword to defend themselves against Roman Catholic crusades in violation of Matthew 26:52.
The foregoing facts therefore would appear to demonstrate two things: (1) That through all the centuries from the time of Abel to modern times there were those who adhered so closely to God’s Word as to be considered God’s witnesses that had his approval. (2) That the number of them must have been small. This would be in keeping with the limited number composing the body of Christ as well as with the fact that comparatively large numbers of these appeared at the sowing and at the harvesttime. -
13
The WTS and its vicious slandering of the early church
by greendawn inone of the most disagreeable actions of the wts is the vicious way in which it relegates the christian martyrs of the early church not only in seeking to minimise their number but also their authenticity.
they claim that after the first century the church went apostate and there were basically very few genuine christians so most martyrs were worthless.
yet when we examine the early church doctrines closely we see that they were pretty much based on the bible and perhaps also on books that were then circulating among the churches and considered, perhaps wrongly, to be genuine at the time.
-
-
yaddayadda
To be fair to the Society, they do not paint as harsh a picture of the early centuries as you allege, at least according to the following Watchtower article:
*** w70 8/15 494-5 Jehovah's Servants Are Different ***
" 22 Although shortly after the apostles fell asleep in death, “while men were sleeping,” an enemy, Satan the Devil, came and sowed weeds in the wheat field, the wheat field did not immediately become a field of weeds. (Matt. 13:25) And so early church historians tell us that in those early centuries Christians still stood out as different from those about them. This difference was apparent in at least four distinct respects. For one thing, they stood out as different from all the rest in the matter of religion. Not only were their beliefs and form of worship distinctive but they uniquely claimed that they alone were the true religion and all the others were false. It took courage to make that claim. As one church historian expressed it: “To the Christian, his God could never be placed in the same category as Isis or Mithras or Augustus.” Roman emperors were tolerant of different religions but not of one that taught “that the gods of Rome and of all other religions were alike false, and which strove to win over all mankind to that belief.
23 Those early Christians also stood out as different in their relationship with other parts of that system of things. On the one hand they refused to hold office in the government and to serve in the armies of Caesar, and, on the other hand, they ceased being materialists. Material riches were no longer the goal of their endeavors but merely a means used in furthering their preaching activity.
24 Similarly the early Christians stood out as different in regard to morals. All manner of immorality was rampant in the Roman and Greek civilizations of that time, sexual immorality even being a part of their worship, and sexual perversions, such as homosexuality, were rife. Historians record how different the early Christians were from those about them also in this respect: “We have the testimony to their blameless lives, to their irreproachable morals, to their good citizenship, and to their Christian graces.”
25 And finally, these early Christians stood out as different in their great unselfish love for one another, even as Jesus said would be the case: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”—John 13:34, 35.
26 No question about it. The record, both inspired and otherwise, testifies to the fact that Jehovah’s servants were different from those about them, from the time of Abel to the early postapostolic centuries. But what about our day? Is this still the case? It is, even as the next article will show." -
11
WTS's two 'classes' of Christians is completely artificial
by yaddayadda inplease read the below excerpt from a 1996 questions from readers on the difference between the little flock and other sheep.
the article makes it very clear that both classes receive the holy spirit and there is absolutely no discernible difference whatsoever between the 'anointed' and the 'other sheep'.
the society is well aware there is no practical difference at all between these two so-called 'classes' of jw christians.
-
-
yaddayadda
Please read the below excerpt from a 1996 Questions from Readers on the difference between the little flock and other sheep. The article makes it very clear that both classes receive the holy spirit and there is absolutely no discernible difference whatsoever between the 'anointed' and the 'other sheep'. The Society is well aware there is no practical difference at all between these two so-called 'classes' of JW Christians. Both 'classes' get the holy spirit in equal measure, they all have the same knowledge, they are all preaching and doing the same things.
So, exactly how is this composite 'slave class' providing 'food at the proper time' to the 'other sheep'? In what way has this 'slave class' been 'appointed' over all Jesus' belongings when 99.9% of elders in the organisation are of the 'other sheep'? Exactly what is the so-called 'faithful and discreet slave' class doing differently from the 'other sheep' to justify their exclusive claim to Matthew 24: 45-47?
The Society takes great pride in its claims to be a modern-day restoration of original, 'true' Christianity, yet the truth is, of course, that there were no 'classes' of Christians in the first Century at all. It is explicit in Scripture that ALL Christians who professed faith in Christ, repented, and were baptized received the holy spirit and were thus 'anointed'. They all professed the same hope (Eph 4:4). Thus the Watchtower Society can hardly claim to be a restoration of original Christianity at all. It is certainly preaching a different 'good news' than the apostles taught (2 Cor 11:4; Galatians 1: 6-9).
The entire concept of two separate 'classes' of Christians, with two separate 'hopes', is completely unscriptural. There is not the slightest bit of evidence in the Christian Greek Scriptures to justify the Watchtower Society's creation of these artificial classes of Christians.
*** w96 6/15 31 Questions From Readers ***
"Can we say that God’s servants today who have the earthly hope have as much of God’s spirit as do spirit-anointed Christians?
Members of the “other sheep,” though not having had the experience of being anointed, in other respects do receive holy spirit. The Watchtower of April 15, 1952, observed:
“The ‘other sheep’ today perform the same preaching work as the remnant, under the same trying conditions, and manifest the same faithfulness and integrity. They feed at the same spiritual table, eating the same food, absorbing the same truths. Being of the earthly class, with earthly hopes and a keen interest in earthly things, they might interest themselves more in scriptures relating to earthly conditions in the new world; whereas the anointed remnant, with heavenly hopes and strong personal interest in the things of the spirit, might study more diligently those things in God’s Word. . . . Yet the fact remains that the same truths and the same understanding are available to both classes, and it is just how the individuals apply themselves in study that determines the comprehension of heavenly and earthly things they acquire. The Lord’s spirit is available in equal portions to both classes, and knowledge and understanding are offered equally to both, with equal opportunities for absorbing it.” "
Interestingly, compare the above with the following:
*** w53 9/15 554 Creating Counterfeit Christianity ***
NO CLASS DISTINCTION
"Early Christians were all brothers. No class distinction could rightfully exist. (Jas. 2:1-9) Christians were not to bow down worshipfully before another, as Peter told Cornelius. (Acts 10:25, 26) No Christians kissed Christ’s hand or toe; instead, he washed their feet! “If I, although Master and Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash the feet of one another.” (John 13:14, NW) If bowing down and kissing toes and hands were Scriptural, then, according to Jesus’ example, Christians would have to do this, not to a select few, but to all their brothers. Clearly, such procedure is not Scriptural, and Christ set no pattern for class distinction." -
3
Mennonites, Waldenses, etc, didn't use the name 'Jehovah'.
by yaddayadda inmy understanding is that the society suggests that various christian groups that popped up here and there during the christian era, such as the waldenses, etc, likely contained 'wheat-like' christians, ie, anointed ones with the heavenly calling.
the basis for assuming this is because these groups taught certain similar doctrines that jw's do today that makes them stand out from broader christendom (anti-trinity, etc).
the argument is that these groups read the bible for themselves, saw that the big churches had some things wrong, but were soon persecuted and crushed by the powerful false religious 'weeds'.
-
-
yaddayadda
My understanding is that the Society suggests that various Christian groups that popped up here and there during the Christian era, such as the Waldenses, etc, likely contained 'wheat-like' Christians, ie, anointed ones with the heavenly calling. The basis for assuming this is because these groups taught certain similar doctrines that JW's do today that makes them stand out from broader Christendom (anti-trinity, etc). The argument is that these groups read the bible for themselves, saw that the big churches had some things wrong, but were soon persecuted and crushed by the powerful false religious 'weeds'.
I'm not certain just how categorical the Watchtower Society has been in stating that such groups housed 'true Christians'. My feeling is that the Society is mealy-mouthed about this - hinting at them possibly being wheat but avoiding clear statements about it. (I seem to recall that they equivocate on this in relation to the Anabaptists.) If anyone can unearth any quotes from the Watchtower publications on this score they would be invaluable.
Depending on how the Society categorises these historical groups, what I'm wondering is whether any of them used the name 'Jehovah' or not? Can anyone point to any sources that shed light on this?
My feeling is they did not.
Aside from the fact that the evidence is flimsy that the first century Christians used 'Jehovah', if the Society is claiming that these more recent groups also housed genuine anointed Christians and those groups did not use the name 'Jehovah', then how does the Society insist that only those who today recognise and use that name can be 'true Christians'? -
8
With the "New Light" on 1935 will JW's come up with a Great Crowd "A" and B
by booker-t init is just getting like a rollercoaster ride with the changes going on at the wt society.
but it just don't surprise me as much as it used to.
i really believe that jw's will come up with a new doctrine of the "great crowd-a" (people going to heaven to help the 144,000) and a "great crowd -b" people staying on earth after armaggeddon.
-
-
yaddayadda
Jeff, How on earth can you say that becoming mainstream is an overall 'objective' of the JW's? That is utterly baseless. The entire history of the organisation is nothing but a reaction and rally against 'mainstream' Christendom.
JW's will never abandon their earthly paradise teaching, just like the Christadelphians never will. They would sooner shrivel up and disappear that abandon such a fundamental teaching to them. There is as much chance of them dropping this teaching as there is of the Pope announcing in the future that the human soul is mortal. I wonder if you ever were a JW to be so out of touch with their mindset.
They may tinker here and there with certain of their fringe/chronological teachings and soften some of the more rigid stances re blood etc because of financial/legal threats but that is hardly evidence of an overriding 'objective' to become mainstream. -
98
I just got back from my circuit assembly !
by 5go inok i have listed all the intresting and thought provoking things.
hear they are from a to z.
<----------- yep nothing.. .
-
-
yaddayadda
Good. Now I can be left alone to get on with my life without being pestered by them.
-
38
How many Christians were there in the 1st century?
by yaddayadda injust been reading former long-time brooklyn bethelite tom cabeen's very encouraging article entitled "where is the body of christ?".
(can be found at http://divinetruth.homestead.com/bodyofchrist.pdf) .
in his article, tom says: "when john received the revelation around the end of the first century, there were hundreds of thousands of christians, even by conservative estimates.
-
-
yaddayadda
Thank you very much for the replies, particularly Leolaia's comments.
Although the evidence is rather inconclusive, it seems safe to say that Tom Cabeen's statement is way off the mark.
Nevertheless, from all accounts it seems very hard to imagine the 144k number not having been filled up a long time ago. This would especially seem to be the case given that 99% or so of the many thousands of 'anointed' Bible Students/JW's (aged around say 20 upward) alive in 1935 must all be dead by now.
On this point, Greendawn said:" Undercover, that is the presumption of the WTS 1 900 years of Christian existence failed to provide a total of 144 000 saints and they, a half baked religion managed to provide 50 000 or so in a mere 100 years..."
Greendawn, is your estimate of 50,000 reliable or is it a speculative guess?
Can anyone tell us: 1 - How many Bible Students likely died between, say, 1879 and 1935; and 2 - how many adult JW's were alive around the early 1930's (when a large number still professed to be of the 'heavenly calling'.)
Thanks