somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
5go: ...because evidence has disproven that men in the past could of seen it...
I am afraid there is no such evidence.
5go: ...the did not descibe the rather blinding and hot effects of matter conversion...
This is only theorized as a possible side-effect of one proposed method to achieve matter conversion, 5go. There is no evidence that this is a necessary side-effect for the process to happen at all.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
LDB,
Explaining things to a civilization incapable of comprehending them would be rather pointless. Reveal means to demonstrate, so I took him to mean "shown" by God (or some extra-human source).
Telling an ancient civilization about DNA, for instance, would be pointless. Telling them that animals produce pheremones would be pointless. Telling them that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared would be pointless, even if you said that by way of explaining the cool things you could "turn water into", because they will focus only on what they see and would describe it the best they can manage from a position of relatively gross ignorance. So what that you know you didn't really turn water into wine, you can't possibly explain what really happened to people who aren't capable of comprehending it.
We have reports of things happening that we now know to be scientifically possible and they happened before humans had the technology to accomplish them, or even comprehend how they were accomplished.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
Jeffro: Re-ordering the available atoms of water cannot make wine. (You may like to take a look at a periodic table.) It would be necessary to split a portion of those atoms to form a smaller amount of the other elements required to make wine. And maybe a Haz-Mat suit.
Okaaaay, I suppose this might have some relevance you are going to credit a narrative account from a fairly backwater corner of the globe as being scientifically accurate in its relation of how something witnessed was accomplished. And I think it's cute the way you assume we would currently be able to accomplish the trick if only ... we are only at the far edges of wishing we could do what we know to be technologically possible when it comes to replication and to reordering of atoms. We might need Haz-Mat suits to accomplish this anytime within the next 250 years, but if you look back at how far we have come technologically in the past 250 years perhaps we won't even need a Haz-Mat suit 250 years from now.
The point of this is, transmutation of one form of matter into another form of matter is theoretically probable and people claim to have seen it done long before humans had the technology. Therefore, an extra-human or super-human source is reputed to have revealed as a reality something we can still only theorize about. Which goes directly to Terry's request.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
Jeffro: Comparing 'immaculate conception' myths with in vitro fertilisation is an invalid comparison. One requires the genetic material to come from somewhere, the other requires gullibility and an overactive immagination.
And yet, the Native Americans believed the whites had magical powers because of a compass needle. Ever stop and think how a culture incapable of comprehending in vitro fertilzation might describe it, due to the lack of knowledge?
Is matter transference theoretically possible, or not? How about probable? Would it be more likely easier to move a large amount of matter, or a small amount?
Is genome modification possible? Probable? Already a reality? I have seen a field of glowing tobacco. Wanna know how they did it?
The fact is, until very lately conception without sexual union was considered impossible. Now we know it is possible. Which means it always has been possible. But it was declared possible long before human science declared it possible, wasn't it, Jeffro?
He asked for one thing.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
"xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.. are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings?
do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist?
do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?.
"Xeno" is a common taxonomical designation for aliens (strangers) including extraterrestrials.
Are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings? Do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist? Likely?
Do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?
Do you think it is possible or likely that primitive peoples encountered Gods and/or Goddesses possessed of incomprehensible capabilities?
Could our special advancement have been aided along by benefactors of an extra-earthly origin?
It is a point of avid curiosity for me. I'd love to read pro and con discussion, although I probably won't get to reply much.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
Have you ever seen someone start a fire using the "friction method"? It is a royal pain the butt, and definitely not easy.
Yes, I have. I have seen myself start a fire using the friction method—which is what started the line of reasoning. It is a royal pain in the butt and not the sort of thing someone would arrive at doing by simple trial and error.
The keys are high pressure, high speed and bone dry, super-fine tinder.
Perfectly expressed, and highly unlikely to be observed in nature in such a way that the realization dawns. As far as I know, hands spinning wood does not create smoke except in artificial circumstances, such as the additional use of ignition compounds coating the bowl. Cold, especially cold and damp, environments would be the least likely place to find those circumstances. Icy conditions would make the discovery nearly impossible. The skin of the hand would be off before smoke occurred.
I'd love to hear a hypothetical scenario under which the "friction method" actually employed by primitive peoples would have been discovered accidentally. The point is, the gift of anthropogenic fire (i.e. specifically the technology of fire, not the naturally occuring sort) is attributed to Gods by many, many ancient cultures. Whoever actually discovered it must have been very humble, indeed.
Still, the Bible (and other ancient religious texts) relate at least three points that science has either established as fact or which science expects to eventually establish as fact. None of these could have been scientifically comprehended by the people who reported them and were explained as miraculous, but they can be scientifically comprehended today. I mentioned the three in the first post where I started discussing fire.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
IP_SEC: No problem there either. It is a funny thing about progress that VERY often the same advancement is made on opposite sides of the globe with no knowledge of the research of either party. Why? How? How did the Chinese and Europeans both begin using horses without knowledge of each other?
It isn't my problem to demonstrate the how, IP_SEC. I am not the one making the extraordinary claim that prior to written communication such advances were commonplace or likely to arise spontaneously in many places without communication between groups. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
IP_SEC: No, I believe what you are missing is critical mass of intelligence (which did take millions/billions of years) to produce an animal capable of "quantum jumps" past his anscestors.
"Critical mass of intelligence" does not equate to "critical mass of knowledge." Technology is not simply a function of intellect. Aboriginal tribes of Australia are no less intelligent than other specimen of homo sapiens, but they lacked a lot of the knowledge acquired long prior to their discovery by many other peoples around the globe.
I note that you mention the "quantum jumps" past ancestors. Couple this with disconnected civilizations arriving at technologies nearly simultaneously and a curious combination of extraordinary claims emerges. A simple explanation exists, by application of Occam's Razor, although it is one not readily embraced by many of a scientific bent.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
Terry: Men of [science] blocked the way, certainly.
This would be true in the case of Nikola Tesla, certainly—the scientific "papacy's" version of what happened with Galileo Galilei. Men of science are no more noble or prone to admit fundamental error in their basic assumptions, in my experience, than anyone else. Human pride blocks the way to progress. It also leads the way to progress. Odd, isn't it?
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
Terry: If there is one thing for certain, fire was NOT discovered by rubbing sticks together.
Relatives of homo sapiens "discovered" fire much the same way gorillas, chimpanzees, deer, squirrels, owls, ants, bees, and every other kind of land-dwelling creature discovers fire. One starts and destroys habitats, destroys specimen, and destroys product. In the wild, those species of the animal kingdom which are not afraid of fire do not often survive fire. Instinctively, fire is feared and avoided by mammalian species in particular.
Do you agree?
Again, before trying to find a way to bring this dreaded thing into existence intentionally a need must be present which (a) requires the technology to a sufficient degree that natural instinct to survive is overwhelming innate dread of fire, and (b) can be met quickly enough to have been discovered within one life span. The solution to the need must have been (a) discovered within a single life span, (b) have been simple to employ, and (c) can have been easily communicated to uninterrupted successive generations prior to the advent of written communication.
The need for technology precedes the use of technology—more especially in prehistoric environments than today. There simply wasn't time in a day for idle pursuits.
To use your analogy of Survivor, Terry, ALL the people placed in those more primitive circumstances (still ultra-modern by prehistoric standards) already know the survival value of fire and they are often still unwilling to invest the required efforts or are unable to produce fire. Others, after producing fire, fail to keep the fire going through inattention or unfavorable weather conditions. At home, we watch thinking how stupid they are for not giving due attention to such a vital element of wilderness survival. They are exhausted from the other demands of survival, caring for provision of food, clothing, and shelter. They are undernourished and tired, they make mistakes. They know the value of fire and sometimes still can't keep one maintained once started.
Original anthropogenic fire requires the value being either intuited from a position of complete ignorance of the advantages of fire or necessitated by immediate unfavorable conditions that required the production of fire. That is, unless we imagine primitive societies had time to devise parlor tricks for entertainment purposes. Watching Survivor, I find that extremely difficult to envision.
I think original anthropogenic fire is a very interesting discussion because of the single life-span constraint implicit in the nature of the technology itself. It couldn't possibly have developed gradually over even two hundred years, much less hundreds of thousands of years. We are talking a period in history when the average life spans were much shorter than today. The needs leading to its introduction and ubiquitous application would have to have been much too immediate to allow for a hundred generations of "fire scientists" dedicated to the pursuit of acquiring human generated fire.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
somebody is always insisting they have an invisible and mysterious source of divine information and selling it like hotcakes and syrup.
but, why are you still buying?
when will you ever learn that this is a scam among many scams.
The reason is the critical "missing link" in the discussion because we know this skill couldn't have gradually developed over many generations. Within one lifespan a reason had to have been cause to discover and teach and an anthropogenic method of producing usable, controllable fire had to be discovered.
Not "hundreds of thousands of years" ... one lifespan. The survival import of the advancement had to be recognized as important enough to overcome the societal instinctive dread of fire and spread throughout near-human society within a few lifespans.
