I (UBM) went to the meeting with my wife and we somewhat discussed the article afterwards. She actually started it, realizing during the meeting, how I must cringing in my seat with all this talk about the org and why we should follow it. I am trying to make her see that there is a difference between believing in God (and maybe looking for some kind of personal relationship with him) and believing and following everything the WTBS says. So this means progress, as she almost apologized to me for being a JW, explaining that she stuck with them basically because all other christian religions she has had contact with, are a lot worse in her opinion.
Posts by Zana
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42Ironic quote in the 5/14wt lesson "Are you moving ahead with Jehovahs Organization"
by BU2B inthe whole article makes me ill with its worse than average mind control.. i was going to only include one quote but there are so many doozies that i will post what i feel to be the worst.. from paragraph 6.
"gods organization survives and flourishes on earth because the people who are part of it have his approval.".
the great tribulation has been "so close" for over 120 years of wt history.
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How to prove the Watchtower wrong with their own recent literature (May 15th, 2014)
by Zana inthis is very good, at least it will be in a few years.
sorry if it's been posted here before already.. it's in the watchtower magazine may 15th, 2014, last page: from our archives: they talk about a public speech held in sao paolo in 1923 where they also distributed the brochure "millions who now live will never die" (pictured in the magazine!).
a quick calculation: 1923 -> 2014, how many people in the world now are 90 years old or more?
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Zana
This is very good, at least it will be in a few years. Sorry if it's been posted here before already.
It's in the Watchtower magazine May 15th, 2014, last page: From our archives: They talk about a public speech held in Sao Paolo in 1923 where they also distributed the brochure "Millions who now live will never die" (pictured in the magazine!). A quick calculation: 1923 -> 2014, how many people in the world now are 90 years old or more? Not sure, probably still millions, but not many. So in a few years there is definite proof about the fact, that at least once they printed something wrong. And you don't need to look for it in the internet, apostate literature or decades old watchtower magazines. You can show them openly with their own latest literature. And then ask the question: "How can you be sure, that everything they print today is true? You can't!"
I definitely planted a seed there (in my wife's head).
PS: I found this in the Spanish version of the watchtower (La Atalaya). The not simplified version! Not sure if it's in the English version.
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Birthday celebration/participation
by Zana inmy wife is considering to let our kids participate, maybe even celebrate their own birthdays.
she says what can be so bad about just giving a little kid (who doesn't yet understand the bible) a day full of joy and happiness?
she herself actually delayed her own baptism as a teenager in order to celebrate one more birthday.
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Zana
My wife (liberal JW) and I (UBM) have been discussing birthdays lately (again...), after our 3 years old son got a few birthday invitations from his friends. My wife is considering to let our kids participate, maybe even celebrate their own birthdays. She says what can be so bad about just giving a little kid (who doesn't yet understand the bible) a day full of joy and happiness? She herself actually delayed her own baptism as a teenager in order to celebrate one more birthday.
Questions for you:
- How bad are birthdays really for JWs? Reason for DF? Or how bad compared to other sins for example fornication, smoking, marrying an UBM? Is there a difference between participating in someone elses birthday and celebrating yout own and why? What about a JW mother who lets her kids participate in their friends birthday parties? How bad will she be counseled if word gets out?
- How can I continue to reason with her, that the watchtower interpretion of the bible concernings birthdays is actually very far-fetched. What bible-quotes will she throw at me (or other JWs at her) and how can I try to disarm their arguments?
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67
Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father
by Zana inmy wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.
my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .
sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.
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Zana
Fraz,
You will always be the enemy in all of this - any compromises you make will not change this - she will just see this as a sign of weakness. Also much better to start tough and relax at the edges later than to start by making compromises and then try to tighten up once you realise you have lost control.
I can see the logic here, but the thing is, right now I am not the enemy, not for her and not for her congregation. They (the cong) probably still hope I will become a JW one day. And for example they are happy, I take care of the kids every once in a while, so my wife can go door-to-door. And for my wife I am not the enemy because we understand we both want what is best for our kids. And she is kind of open to the idea that the WTBS truth is not the one and only way to educate children. So she actually listens (and complies) when for example I talk about avoiding fear-inducing bible stories. And she doesn't side with the WTBS. Which I am afraid she would do more often than not, if I "start tough" now.
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67
Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father
by Zana inmy wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.
my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .
sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.
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Zana
villagegirl,
There is no middle road.
I believe there is. At least as long as my wife stays liberal and moderate. And if she suddenly turnes hardcore I can still get out bigger guns. But if I flat out reject everything JW-related now, that would put a strain on our marriage and possibly just result in the consequences I slowly try to stear her away from in the first place.
Actually yesterday we had a talk about the seriousness of baptism, the motives behind it, and at what age this might be appropriate, if our kids really want it. She will be fine with a 18-years-old rule. There it is: Middle road. More time for me to show them the world and educate them to become critical thinkers.
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67
Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father
by Zana inmy wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.
my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .
sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.
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Zana
pbrow, yes, I am the father and yes, I plan on doing most of the things you suggested for my kids. I just want to be prepared for the weapons arsenal the JWs might aim at them sooner or later. You know books, videos, possibly talks behind my back or other things people mentioned here. I am not expecting much trouble from my wife's congregation at the moment. The elders are ok and don't seem very manipulative or overambitious about shepherding their flock. There is one "elderette" who often tries to get my wife more involved in JW activities, but she actually just gets on her nerves, too.
But you never know. Somebody here (roberto?) made the al qaeda sleeper cell comparison. And besides we will possibly move to another city soon. A different congregation could mean more trouble. And then we will have to build new non-JW connections, too.
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67
Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father
by Zana inmy wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.
my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .
sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.
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Zana
I absolutely didn't want them to have a bible study ( besides the mother ) before an highschool degree
When would they want to do that? I mean at what age? Is that a common thing to do for born-in JW children? Getting bible studies from someone outside the family? I don't like this idea.
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67
Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father
by Zana inmy wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.
my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .
sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.
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Zana
Hi roberto,
glad to hear things turned out fine in your family. One thing strikes me as rather odd though. You think your wife is happy that none of your children wanted to join her religion? That is a lot more than liberal! Does she go to meetings regularly? Do you sometimes go with her? My wife still believes in Armageddon and is a little sad when thinking about me or possibly her children not being there then. Though I like the puzzled look on her face, when I tell her that this will be a tough problem for Jehovah to solve: Make her happy in life after Armageddon without me and our kids being there, too.
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Can a marriage between a catholic and a jw work?
by roberto avon inthis topic was posted yesterday on an italian fb page.
i replied that my personal experience was very positive.
of course i have to admit that my.
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Zana
Yes.
I am an agnostic married to a modern, well-balanced (her own words) JW wife. Meaning balance between worldly and spiritual things. And I have the feeling that family is first, WTBS only second or third on her list. Of course there are difficult themes/conversations sometimes (blood issue, education of our children, ...), and with some of these topics there is hardly any compromise possible. But we manage. Loving each other helps a lot. If I were catholic, she would probably feel even better. More common ground.
I imagine a marriage (without children) between a more hardcore JW spouse (WTBS first!) and an UBM could also work out, if the UBM has his/her own no. 1 priority before family, for example a very demanding job or a very time-consuming hobby. But then, what kind of marriage would that be?
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67
Raising kids - JW mother, agnostic father
by Zana inmy wife and i have two wonderful children aged 1 and 3. i was raised as a lutheran but stopped believing in my late teen years.
my wife is what i would call a liberal jw (yes, i believe such people exist .
sooner or later our children will have questions about religion and the differences mom and dad show towards it.
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Zana
Childhood milestones:
- First comment at the meeting
- First public talk
- Dress-up in meeting clothes, first briefcase
- First field service
- Baptism
Ok, interesting. Well, our 3-year-old has been dressed-up already with clothes some JW-friends gave him as a present. Kind of cute and kind of scary at the same time. I will have to think about my position on field service, once my wife picks that up on a regular basis again. Although I believe I will have quite some advantage there, because I will be able to offer a lot more fun stuff to do with my kids when planning on how to spend saturday morning.
Baptism is big of course. I plan on setting the rule that they can decide about that not before their 18th birthday. What opposition will I face here? When somebody pressures them they can always blame me and my rule.
And thanks, jgnat, for the links!
There are two areas you can/should discuss with your wife. The blood doctrine and how that applies to her and your children and the Pedophile problem.
I've done a lot of research on the blood doctrine. Although I couldn't convince my wife to not carry the blood paper thing around, I at least made her accept all the blood fracture stuff and use of blood saving methods. And I made myself very clear that our children will always be allowed to accept blood transfusions no matter what.
On the pedophile subject I haven't really gotten to her. When talking about things like that (strange JW rules/interpretations or any flip-flopping doctrine), she blames humans to be imperfect, even if they are elders or GB. There is bad people everywhere.
Now, lucky72's list (thanks, great post!):
- insist that we had friends and associated with kids outside of the organization
Check. Also my wife is ok with this.
- allow us to play sports and be involved with extracurricular activities
Check. Also my wife is ok with this.
- discuss doctrines. I think this would have made a big difference to me because I had so many doubts and getting a different, well thought out and reasonable perspective from my father, at a young age, would have been enormous. We did occasionally engage in debates when I was in high school, such as evolution vs. creation, but I think I was too far gone by then
Ok. Will keep this in mind.
- argue with the fact that witnesses are the only ones who have the truth and that everyone else will die at armageddon. Present evidence of "goodness" in other groups. Although I had many doctrinal questions growing up, I never really questioned that all other religions were evil, so it made my other issues seem secondary. It also made me reject any argument against the witnesses (occasionally presented by my grandparents) as being "apostate". I think if these discussions had started at an early age, in conjunction with a discussion of doctrines, I would have been eagar to entertain alternatives
Ok. Shouldn't be a problem. My wife does see goodness in other groups already, so no opposition there.
- insist on college (if that's what your children want) and don't wait to have that discussion until the last minute. Deep down, I really did want to go to college out of high school and I remember wishing at the time that my dad would have insisted. I did eventually go to college during the brief change in policy in the 90's, and it helped give me the confidence to finally get out.
Check. Also my wife is ok with this.
- Do not underestimate the peer pressure in the congregation. Because my mom was very active and my dad was an unbeliever, we had several elders take my brother and sister and I "under their wing" and the pressure from them and their families was huge! We felt the pressure from the "good" families because we wanted to be considered "good association", and this influenced my willingness to participate in lots of witness activities enormously, especially because I had no friends outside of the organization.
Ok, haven't thought about that very much. Thanks for pointing it out!