Posts by daniel-p

26

Were the "Pioneers" in your hall treated with favoritism by the Elders?

by booker-t in

jw
friends

it seems that all of the parts on the theocratic ministry school were given by the pioneers in my old hall.

also the elders were always complemented on how "sister pioneer" is so zealous and loves jehovah.

as if sister not pioneering hated jehovah.

daniel-p

[q]when i was a pioneer, the PO loved parading me around. and then i was apointed as a MS at 18.

PO: "...by holy spirit. but we need to ask you, do you have a problem with masturbation?"[/q]

I had one of these experiences myself. Except it was at Bethel, about 2 months after I got there. The department overseers were making the rounds, probing for any brohers who had problems with pornography. Of course, I didn't, no... not at all. "Have you ever viewed pornography?" ME: "Hm, well... there was this one time when I was 7 years old... yes, and I saw this picture on a wall in this autobody shop and there was a woman in a funny position... I didn't really know what it was at the time...."
And then some bull**** about what we can do to get images like these out of our minds by reading scriptures, blah blah blah. Seriously, did they think thousands of 19-year old men DID NOT have a "problem" with masturbation and most of the time pornography? I remember the chairman on morning worship who was literally brought to tears talking about how they were helping many brothers get over their pornography addictions, how much anguish it caused, etc... and how if anyone had a problem to come forward with it. You just have to experience that sort of thing for yourself - the electricity in the air between the 1000 men and women all sitting next to eachother, all 1000 barely breathing while the morning's council was doled out. I tell you, there was more council on porn, masturbation, violent video games, etc... enough to smother a regular congregation.

Stastistics show that 98% of young men masturbate. And I actually thought that when I got to Bethel, Jehovah's holy spirit would eliminate that "unclean" desire out of my heart. For goodness sakes, I was an idiot....

25

If the WTS was totally discredited in the eyes of the JWs

by greendawn in

if a really big scandal happened in the wts and the r&f realised that the organisation is the big con that it is, how do you think they would react?

empty kingdom halls?

divided families re united?

daniel-p

Well, I think if just more people knew about some of things that have happened, you'd have a lot more leaving. Controlling the information is the most powerful weapon during times of peace and especially times of war. For example, up until a month ago, I had never known about the UN/NGO scandal, or the story behind Raymond Franz. I was at Bethel, but I only heard vague references of the "Great Apostacy" of the 80's. I once heard Lon Schilling (Wallkill 'heavy') mention during Saturday morning worship that they knew apostacy existed even among the "highest ranks of the organization and we couldn't do anything about it" and I was even then doubting he was alluding to the actual GB. I think it is basicaly something they would all rather forget about - even the ones who experienced it all first hand. Of course, I knew about the pedophilia cases - that spread like wildfire - but you have to understand that scandals have no other way of spreading among JW's other than word of mouth. These things are never addressed at the time, directly from the publications. And we certainly would never go "looking" for information to get the scoop, would we? ;)

Either we come across the information by accident and continue to watch/read/listen to it with baited breath, OR we get to the point of actually actively seeking info even though we know we could be considering "apostate" literature. Either way, it is our hunger for the truth that leads us to it - which just happens to be the most damndest ironic thing I have experienced in my life.

11

Miracle Cures

by daniel-p in

jw
friends

for those who recognize quackery in the medicinal form: .

do you find a disproportionate amount of witnesses - primarly older women - promoting and peddling miracle cures?

or do you think the occurence is the same as outside the organization?

daniel-p

I have personally seen, and continue to see, general paranoia over conventional medicine and treatment. For instance, Sister So-and-so gets cancer. They are paranoid about doctors (after all, they just want to give you blood, right?) so they go to the Hoxsey Clinic in Tijuana. Sister So-and-so's cancer abates for a while and they are elated. Six months later the cancer gets more aggresive. This time she goes to the hospital and gets chemotherapy. Three months later she dies. What did she die from? The cancer or the chemo?

I have seen this time and time again - even in my own case which I will not elaborate on at this time. But I have seen for a long time that critical thinking is not really encouraged by the Society. There has been efforts made to get witnesses to be a little more open to conventional medicine (see recent Awake cover article on doctors) but the question still arises:
If our faith in the "new world" is so sure, why are we so frantic and irrational in coping with death-dealing diseases?

The survival mechanism kicks in, naturally, but our senses are clouded by our inability to think critically.

11

Miracle Cures

by daniel-p in

jw
friends

for those who recognize quackery in the medicinal form: .

do you find a disproportionate amount of witnesses - primarly older women - promoting and peddling miracle cures?

or do you think the occurence is the same as outside the organization?

daniel-p

edit: I shouldnt say "primarily older women" - that's just been my experience. I do know of many men who promote miracle cures as well.

11

Miracle Cures

by daniel-p in

jw
friends

for those who recognize quackery in the medicinal form: .

do you find a disproportionate amount of witnesses - primarly older women - promoting and peddling miracle cures?

or do you think the occurence is the same as outside the organization?

daniel-p

For those who recognize quackery in the medicinal form:

Do you find a disproportionate amount of Witnesses - primarly older women - promoting and peddling miracle cures?
Or do you think the occurence is the same as outside the Organization?

54

Skirting the issue

by Virgogirl in

what argument is put forth that women must only wear dresses or skirts to the meetings or in service and are not permitted to wear slacks?

where does it say it's wrong for sisters to wear pants, and how are they convincing women in 2005 to buy into this?

i remember many bitterly cold chicago mornings with frozen legs running to doors and back to the warm car as quickly as possible, wearing a skirt which was ridiculous and inappropriate to the weather conditions.

daniel-p

It's simply the "custom."
Many things in the organization are custom and nothing more.
For example, men not growing beards.
Or... stopping for coffee out in service, now that one NO ONE'S GOING TO TAKE AWAY FROM ME!!!!!!!

52

1st step?

by daniel-p in

jw
friends

i am forcing myself to do this - i feel nauseated, depressed... my hands are shaking.

i know many of you see this and laugh.

but for those of you who arn't, you know how hard it is for me to do this.

daniel-p

Thanks everyone for replying.

I have spent some more time thinking about matters... but of course continuing my theocratic activities. I engaged my wife in a conversation the other day, trying to get closer and closer to some of the topics that have been disturbing me... I don't know if i really reached her. I don't know if there really is a difference between what she truly feels and the rhetoric we are all familiar with and let fall out of our mouth when we have doubts.

[is there any qualitative difference between "doubts" and "questions"?]

I was reappointed as an ms last night after a breif congo. transistion period.
Before they reappointed me they took me to the back room to say they got the letter back from the society and to ask if there was any reason I couldn't serve as an ms.
I've gone through this procedure about 4 times before.
Of course, what could I say? "Actually brothers, I've been reading apostate literature recently and I really do have some big questions - and oh by the way, I've always hated going out in the ministry and constantly avoid it - the few years I spent pioneering I actually had a perpetual stomach discomfort and every time I go I'm filled with anxiety."
No, of course not.
When it was announced, my wife put her hand on my arm and smiled, everyone clapped. The brother on the stage looked at me and smiled, I smiled back, thinly.

The elder's and servant's school is coming up soon.

When will the rollercoaster ride stop? Will I get off myself, or will someone toss me off?

I do know one thing for sure: no one else's experiences are going to convince me to make a decision. I have to see for myself. I want to return to Bethel and look behind the curtain. Will Jehovah allow me to go back? What part of the game am I playing?

52

1st step?

by daniel-p in

jw
friends

i am forcing myself to do this - i feel nauseated, depressed... my hands are shaking.

i know many of you see this and laugh.

but for those of you who arn't, you know how hard it is for me to do this.

daniel-p

dezpbem,

I really don't know what I want or need to hear; I can't even think straight.
I want to know the ever-elusive Truth. I want to know, for sure, if I am doing the right thing. If this isn't the truth, I am being taken for a hell of a ride. If it is the truth, we are all screwed. I can say my faith is breaking apart. How could I expect Jehovah to answer my prayers with these doubts? Would he ever give me conclusive evidence like he gave Gideon? If the answer is no, does he think I am somehow more mighty than Gideon, needing no proof?
Please, someone tell me I am not insane. I don't know if I will ever be able to express these thoughts to anyone in my life....

52

1st step?

by daniel-p in

jw
friends

i am forcing myself to do this - i feel nauseated, depressed... my hands are shaking.

i know many of you see this and laugh.

but for those of you who arn't, you know how hard it is for me to do this.

daniel-p

sorry about the huge paragraph i put spaces in but they didn't show up.

52

1st step?

by daniel-p in

jw
friends

i am forcing myself to do this - i feel nauseated, depressed... my hands are shaking.

i know many of you see this and laugh.

but for those of you who arn't, you know how hard it is for me to do this.

daniel-p

I am forcing myself to do this - I feel nauseated, depressed... my hands are shaking. I know many of you see this and laugh. But for those of you who arn't, you know how hard it is for me to do this. I am currently very active as a JW. I have been my whole life. In other words, my entire life consists of activities and people intertwined with the organization. I'm an ex-bethelite, reg. pioneered, current ms, my wife does not know I am doing this - I am a very private person and will lie when confronted about it. I've lied before; lied about reporting my time, lied about an early pornography addiction, lied about the fact that I am not "seeking glory" for myself by attending college. I've given public talks in outgoing halls. In every hall I move to, I spend much energy making sure the brothers know I am a hard worker and want to serve. However, I cannot stand the ministry. Perhaps it's because I have had doubts for many years now, and can't speak from the heart? Perhaps it's because I have a better idea of how I look to people, going door to door, offering the society's literature. I love my family dearly and would not want to be the source of so much anguish... my mother is sickeningly self-righteous and emotional about anything spiritual. I do not want to be a bitter man - but I think I have been for quite a while. Mainly about my choice to go to college. First of all, I wanted to do something I was good at, not slave away day after day like a machine at Bethel, and not ride around in cars all day being lucky to place 1 magazine set. I wanted to do something that I felt was productive. Second, I wanted to take care of my aging parents who have absolutely no retirement thanks to their moving "where the need is greater." I even wrote the society asking them if I was doing anything wrong in going to college. They said there is nothing wrong with trying to "better your financial situation" but that I should just keep in mind my spiritual balance. I guess I am failing. And now I am constatnly second guessing myself. What has got me to this point is not scandals, but the fundamental stuff. Not whether Jehovah exists, but if he really is using this organization. And then the back of my brain tells me, "of course he is... he certainly is not using any other religious organization." So then I hit a brick wall. But then there is all the logistical stuff like "are we really making the good news known in all the earth?" and "if Jehovah has let the system go on in order for the good news to be preached, why are we barely even touching the vast territories like Bangladesh, India, China?" And of course the Big One: "if Jehovah is not going to destroy 'good people' who have not heard the truth, why are we preaching anyway?" And then of course, there is all the evidence of how the organization is ever more reactionary in their policies. If it is God's spirit annointed organization, why do we have to be reactive? Woulnd't we have special foresight, and impliment proactive policy? Many times people have said (including myself) "Jehovah uses imperfect men to run the organization - the only thing that matters is if we are heading in the right direction and that we remain clean. The ones causing others to stumble will be judged." And then I think of Gideon who requested evidence that Jehovah was with him before he went into battle - 3 times! Why can't I ever hope to have the same privelege of seeing evidence of Jehovah's will? Faith is not supposed to be blind.... I don't know if I will ever be able to have these answers satisfactorily answered. Many of you have said things that have come pretty close, but for the most part, I get put off by the bitterness. I know it's no crime to be bitter or defensive... but I just need to figure it out for myself. I'm sure if some of the things that have happened to you were to happen to me I might be pretty bitter, perhaps even "gnashing my teeth" [shudder]? I feel I am approaching the biggest personal event in my life. That is why when I first began to think about it whole-mindedly, I felt like vomiting. You might say I've been "conditioned" but its more than that. You must understand, I was raised in the truth. This is everything I have ever known. I'm not sure I want to even take this any further. I've briefly entertained the notion that I could just "drift away" but I am not that kind of person.... And could I ever turn my back completely? Could I ever DA myself? There are too many aspects of the organization that I hold dear. But then that's the other Big One: am I loyal to Jehovah or the organization? And are they completely synonomous? I may post later, but I have to take this one careful step at a time so I don't get too far along on a path that I do not want to be on. I still don't know what the hell I am doing... please understand.