if one has the truth he invites questions, because they will only confirm it with answers.. if one has 1/2 truths then only certain type of questions are wanted ones that they can answer.. if questions that are hard or that really challenge the holder of 1/2 truths are supressed and the questioner motives are attacked, should it not make any clear thinking person suspicious?.
if you are one of jw's can you asked hard questions and not be afraid of being veiwed with suspicion and contempt?.
any jws please respond.
If you are one of JW's can you ask hard questions and not be afraid of being viewed with suspicion and contempt?
A “real” JW doesn’t have any questions, hard or otherwise. Because if he did, he wouldn’t be a “real” JW anymore, and would therefore be deserving of suspicion and contempt.
Just the view from my side of the picture window.
just a couple of quick questions, the first directed at exjws - could you ever see any reason for you to return to the organisation?
what would have to happen for you to return?
under what circumstances would you ever go back?
wife:
Why are you asking these questions?
What would your answers be?
does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?
are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?
if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.
Dunsscot:
Now, after having slogged through your thread entitled “freedom of thought. . . ”, I have to admit that now I’ve seen it all - an active JW who pedantically resorts to quoting “worldly” philosophers in support of his apologetic argumentation. As an observation (and NOT an insult), I’d guess that you must be quite an oddity amongst your fellows in the hall.
I found it interesting to think that most, if not all, of the individuals whose thinking you’ve sought refuge and justification in, would, given the opportunity, reject the WTS out of hand. The ability to do so on your part now a given, with a little polishing, a position on the writing committee could loom large in your future, ha, ha. After all, they’re experts in arrogating the ideas of others and weaving them into sophistic dissertations. Not to say that’s what you’ve done, exactly. In contrast: I am assuming you are sincere, whereas they are active manipulators, in my opinion.
In any case, you had asked: “Does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?”
I think you have your answer, yes? I believe it does obtain, and far in excess of the degree to which it is allowed or pursued within the confines of my (our) former religion. There is really very little of the “Olympian perspective” in evidence here, as much as it is the pain of experience from which people are freely speaking.
Thus the imperfect men of the GB may stress conformity to certain ideas that are not in fact fully formed. But we must not be hindered by such small details. The whole is more important than its constituent parts: I look at what the JWs teach as whole.
Not fully formed? Small details? The whole is more important than its constituent parts? Amazing. I found that the “whole” was the sum of its flawed, incomplete, unformed, misrepresented and outright false assumptions/parts. Leaving us with what? Though I to (at that time) hated to be hindered by such small details.
You referenced “Jannes and Jambres. . . men completely corrupted in mind” as comparable to those of us who post here in opposition to the “truth” as you see it. But what corrupted them? Was in not possibly, in large part, their own worldly knowledge?
As I read your expressed thoughts, the following scriptures came (unbidden) to mind:
“In the same way also, unless YOU through the tongue utter speech easily understood, how will it be known what is being spoken? YOU will, in fact, be speaking into the air.”
“For Christ dispatched me. . . not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the Christ should not be made useless.”
“For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.”
“And so I, when I came to YOU, brothers, did not come with an extravagance of speech or of wisdom declaring the sacred secret of God to YOU. For I decided not to know anything among YOU except Jesus Christ, and him impaled. . . and my speech and what I preached were not with persuasive words of wisdom but with a demonstration of spirit and power, that YOUR faith might be, not in men’s wisdom, but in God’s power.”
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”
I am interested in truth. I am also interested in your thinking. With that in mind, would you place the afore mentioned in their proper context for me please? Also, I was glad to see that (so far) no one has resorted to the very tired “consorting with apostates” arguments to drive you off.
Thanks for the diversion, we needed one,
Copernicus
i got my first crank mailing today.
it was a large envelope containing the following:.
1. two paper plates together.. 2. plastic fork and spoon.. 3. three small packets of ketchup.. 4. one packet of mayonnaise.. 5. two packets of salt and pepper.. 6. pair of old boxer shorts with the seat ripped out.. no message or writing, perhaps what is listed above is the message in totality.
Eat my shorts???
Bill - My opinion? Don't play into it my encouraging any responses. Who knows what the game may be.
what is the future of the watchtower society?.
this subject is the greatest mystery of my life.
been in the borg since infancy - my parents and.
Heck, if they got all this holy spirit and Almighty backing they talk about, how come their reading and thinking is so pathetic? I guess they just can't fight those 'worldly trends!
ROTFL!!! Touché, metatron.
I’m glad that so far this thread has stirred up some thought provoking responses. It deserved too. It also felt good to be challenged on my observations. All of you made some fine points. The idea that they SHOULD be striving to educate people, is an idea whose time has come. . .
On the other hand, if the average pub would spend just a few minutes during his constant deep “study” with a dictionary in his hand, he’d be much better off for the effort.
Very sad in a way, yes?
these days it's pretty clear that the jw organization is running on autopilot.
charles taze.
russell, joe booze rutherford, nathan knorr and freddie franz all had a certain amount of vision.
I am bringing this to the top again in hopes of getting some response from Mishnah.
Come on man, I'd like to know what you think.
what is the future of the watchtower society?.
this subject is the greatest mystery of my life.
been in the borg since infancy - my parents and.
Metatron:
I picked this up from your earlier post on this subject.
Add to this situation the enormous 'dumbing down' of the organization. I dare anyone to compare at random any Watchtower volume from the sixties to the platitude laden, eight grade reading level mess that they crank out now. You think computers make things better. Not if all you do is 'cut and paste'!
While I like where you’re going with this topic, I did think the above was rather unfair. If the Tower is “dumbing down,” it’s because the bottom has fallen out of the IQ of its target audience (eg: society in general). I mean really, pick up any generic periodical from the sixties (The New Yorker, Saturday Evening Post, etc) and compare them to one of today’s issues. What do you see? The same decline in editorial content.
Imagine trying to write an article that had to be translated into 100 different languages, to be understood by an equivalent range of educational levels. No easy task, in my opinion. As far as the eighth grade reference goes, my own word processing software TELLS me to dumb down my letters to an 8th grade Flesh-Kincaid reading level, if I want them to be comprehended by most people. What’s that tell you?
I can’t even count the number of times I conducted a book study where I realized that half the publishers had no idea of the meaning of most of the polysyllabic words. Nor had they made any effort to find out. In other words, they were answering rote questions from the paragraph, without ever understanding the question or the answer itself. The “deep” books (like the recent Daniel book, LOL) were impossible to get through for that reason. So what would be the point of cranking out scholarly tomes, even if they could?
The door to door work was just as bad. Could you imagine presenting a book such as “Babylon Has Fallen” at the doors today? They average person doesn’t read much more then the cartoons in Sunday’s paper. They simply have no use for the complex written word.
I’m not one to defend the Tower, but in all fairness, what choice do they have? And just so you know, my Word software tells me I pulled this post off at a measly 7.6
i just saw this show on the scifi channel for the first time on monday night.
how entertaining!
if this guy is for real, i'm amazed.
What always had me laughing throughout the half dozen or so times I’ve watched this show is that if this man is communicating with the dead, then why doesn’t he ever reveal some MEANINGFUL information? It’s always about where Uncle Harry left his last pair of dirty socks, or whether or not Cousin Edna dyes her hair orange or not. All the information he supposedly ‘extracts” or “channels” is always about ridiculous, basically irrelevant stuff.
If you were talking to the dead, wouldn’t somebody want to know WHERE THEY ARE? WHAT’S IT LIKE THERE? IS THERE A GOD? WHAT’S IN THE FUTURE? The man never touches these subjects, which are obviously the kind of thing the “dead” could import meaningful information about. I for one would be curious about his answers to THESE sorts of questions. But he never touches these sorts of subjects.
In my opinion, the guy is a complete fraud, no question about it. Worse, he preys on the emotionally disadvantaged who are suffering from recently having lost a loved one. They are so desperate for any tidbit of confirmation that their dead relative still exists, that they are subtly pumped to feed ol’ John enough facts to make him appear legit, as he weaves his little of web of I see a “B” – what’s the “B” mean?
And by the way, it was my dear dead brother Joe who asked me to get this message out!
these days it's pretty clear that the jw organization is running on autopilot.
charles taze.
russell, joe booze rutherford, nathan knorr and freddie franz all had a certain amount of vision.
Mishnah:
Copernicus, what? Alanf made allegations about Rutherford, as did Farkel, that are totally unproven. My calling them on this is not something I have to prove. It's just something I have to point out. If they cannot back up their claims, then mine are proven as a result.I’m sorry Misnah, but the conclusion you’ve drawn here (being proven right) escapes me completely.
Allow me to say this:
(1) Years ago, while out in service, I encountered an old man who claimed to have been a witness in the 30’s. We talked for some time and he claimed to have left the org because of Rutherford’s shenanigans. What bothered him most, was that the Judge lived like a KING, while the typical publisher was barely surviving at that time. He spoke of mansions, Cadillac cars, fancy clothes, and luxurious world travels (among other things).
At the time I scoffed and dismissed it completely. After all, how could God’s chief “anointed” on earth at the time possibly have been an ostentatious lout? Right?
Then eventually I read Jim Penton's book, Apocalypse Delayed. While Penton is obviously (for good reason) no lover of Rutherford, it was all there in meticulously documented detail. Everything I had heard in the earlier service conversation was true. Now what?
(2) I used to love JFR’s books – read all of them. Now, in hindsight I see that they’re full of plain whacko ideas and loony meanderings. Resurrection of ancient worthies? The end in 1925? Millions now living will never die? I could go on and on. So, we can definitely add false prophet to the list as the Judge is condemned by his own prophetic hallucinations, all of which had been presented as unequivocal TRUTH, and none of which panned out. Could God’s chief “anointed” have spoken falsely, and to such an extreme, in Jehovah’s name? Now what?
Alanf is certainly in a position to know whether he can or cannot prove his claims. If he cannot then what else are we to think but that he purposefully libeled Rutherford?In the context I described above, someone referring to JR as only a drunk and an adulterer is being kind to the man, in my opinion. And the things of which Alan has accused him (if true) are the least of the guilt that he bears. In any case, the overwhelming preponderance of available evidence (outside the Witness literature) validates that this man’s character was extremely flawed. If not completely corrupt. Now what? Should I ignorantly defend him against these latest charges because Alan doesn’t want to give you the “in and out” specifics, or a stained blue dress? My best guess is that Alan is quite right in his statements, as believe me, he’s not one to simply talk out of his ass.
As far as your proof contradicting this. . . where is it? The Witnesses are notorious historical revisionists. Why do you suppose that is? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they have plenty to hide.
Now you have two choices, keep your head in the sand and call all of us liars, or go educate yourself as to the historical reality that exists outside of a Kingdom Hall; and my friend, you owe yourself that much. Get ready for a big surprise.
given some of the recent arguments on the board (which i haven't kept up with at all) i thought this may be of interest, it's taken from my speech class' text book.
they propose a model of communication that is the result of two parties' joint creation of meaning, rather than involving only a sender of information and receiver.. .
meaning is social.. this implies that no one individual, either sender or receiver, can control "the true meaning" of a statement.
Given some of the recent arguments on the board (which I haven't kept up with at all) I thought this may be of interest. . .
Thanks! As you may have noticed, we need all the help we can get. This is a difficult medium to work in.
