Posts by CPiolo

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

CPiolo

Dunsscot:

You do have a gift for obfuscation.

I'm glad you attempted to answer Farkel's questions, although by now many will have forgotten them. Perhaps in the future you could quote the question being answered, especially when it's so far up the thread and a day old. Farkel's post is here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?site=3&id=8125&page=1, down the page a bit.

1) God evidently has a universal organization and an earthly one. When I speak of "God's Organization," I am referring to God's earthly organization composed of the remaining ones of the heavenly woman's seed and those who loyally associate with this remnant.

By what empirical evidence is there to show that God has either a universal or and earthly organization? On what Biblical evidence do you base this? Who is this "heavenly woman," who are the remnant of her seed, and who are those who assiociate with this remnant? On what do you base your answer (again empirically)?

2) In His holy Word, God Himself tells us that when we bless His worshipers, we are in effect blessing Him. Conversely, cursing God's servants is akin to "cursing" Him. So leaving God's organization is comparable to apostatizing from Him. The NT never promotes the notion of "Lone Ranger" Christians.

Besides begging the question, you've made a couple of logical errors here. You've of course still have to prove God has an organization and that the WT is that organization.

It does not follow that cursing God's servants is akin to cursing God. If I curse you, I am not necessarily cursing your entire family, you entire city, your entire race, religion, nation, etc. This, of course, depends on the curse.

You have to prove first that by leaving the WT you are cursing, first God's worshippers, second his organization, and thirdly God. You've also equated cursing with apostacizing. In other words your equating apples and oranges. I can say all kinds of bad things about (cursing) God without rejecting God (apostacy) and without stopping my worship of Him. There are many examples of peoples who worship and curse mean, angry gods.

The NT does not promote the notion of a Christian corporate entity, Christian door-to-door magazine salemen, counted hours and time slips, five weekly meetings, assemblies, conventions, no beards for men, dress length for women, etc., etc., etc.

Lastly, you failed to address Farkel's questions:

What, exactly is "God's Organization?" Please be specific. There will be a quiz. And by implication you have stated that leaving "God's Organization(tm)" is the same a leaving "Jehovah God Himself." Please show evidence for that assertion.

4) You also asked me to prove that "so-called 'vile utterances'" even "bother a God "so far removed from us all that is pathetic." Well, what kind of "proof" would satisfy your mind. What type of argument would seem "cogent" to you? In many (if not all) cases, "proof" is person-relative.

I believe we'd all like to see a logical argument built with empirical evidence to back it up.

Looking forward to your response to Alan,

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

CPiolo

Dunsscot:

You demonstrate once more that you are selective in your responses.

My point is that while I may not be able to convince you that the Witnesses have the truth by means of logical argumentation or reasoning from the Scriptures, this fact does not mean that my argument is invalid, unsound or uncompelling.

In other words, just your opinion. As someone recently said: "Opinions and assholes." (clue: everyone's got one.)

The problem with this is that the WT and its members require that one follow these opinions as if they were from God himself with utterly horrible consequences in many cases where one goes contrary to the society and its teachings (opinions) -- shunning, and death in the case of blood transfusions.

So while your esoteric philosophy says:

I cannot apodictically prove that there are other minds besides my own.

or as Lao Tzu said upon waking from a dream that he was a butterfly: "Am I a man dreaming I'm a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man."

While we wait to find the answers to these questions, we have people in this reality, whatever that may be, suffering and dying due to the opinions of others.

CPiolo
Still waiting for dunsscot to answer the difficult and pertinent questions put forth by AlanF and Farkel. I'd also like to see a response to LoneWolf's insightful post as well.

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

2

Experience at the Supermarket today

by betweenworlds in

jw
friends

just thought i'd share something that happened to me today in the supermarket.... i went into the supermarket to pick up a few things today and ran into the wife of one of the elders from the local congregation.

she was glad to see me in her usual stepford wife manner.

both this brother and his wife have been calling periodically, shepherding their butts off, but much to their chagrin it isn't working (i haven't been to the hall in over 8 months, and did not attend the memorial) a few months back, my friend from next door who is a born again christian, had some of her wow worship music blaring in my living room, and the kids (hers and mine) were all dancing to it, when this brother and his wife called.

CPiolo

betweenworlds

She was glad to see me in her usual stepford wife manner.

Not everyone here is probably familiar to your reference, but for those of us old enough to remember the movie, it rings true. This was my very first impression of JWs many years ago on a visit with an old girlfriend (who was studying with them and had a JW mom) to fulfill a religious studies course in college. The "love bombing" and initial interest the congregation took in me seemed canned and reminded me immediately of the Stepford Wives.

For those of you unfamiliar with the movie, the plot revolves around a couple who moves to a new town after the husband has been transferred. The town is peaceful, quiet, charming, and everyone is so very friendly. The wife becomes friends with a neighbor and they both feel that while all the other women are nice, there is something odd about them that they just can't put their finger on. The women who aren't odd, one by one begin to change so that they become as the others.

It turns out that the men in town have making robotic replicas of their wives, who are kind and submissive, but lacking in personality and human-ness.

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

CPiolo

Faraon:

¡Hola! ¿Qué tal? Tengo una pregunta. ¿Porqué escribiste tu respuesta en castellano? ¿Conoces a Dunsscot? ¿Él habla castellano? Estoy curioso porque nunca he visto ninguna persona charlar aquí en ese idioma.

Bueno, chao, ¡suerte!

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

CPiolo

Dunsscot:

You made certain assertions in your first post. AlanF and Farkel called you on them and asked you to back those up giving examples to back up their positions. If you are to claim certain things and then fail to back up those claims, they are nothing more than words.

You started this thread with more than an outline of your agenda and theoretical approach (whatever that means). You made certain claims and then when two people called you on them, you ignore them. (I see you have promised to answer Farkel later, but there's nothing for Alan.) You also say that Alan wrote a book and you haven't time for a lengthy reply, but in the interim, you've written a couple of books to those who've responded after Alan and Farkel.

BTW, all of youse folks who seem antipathetic toward theory, remember that while theory without practice is empty--practice without theory is blind.

And theories need to backed up with supporting empirical evidence or they're nothing more than opinions. Such theories put into practice amount to nothing. For example, I have a theory that if I smear my body with coconut oil and stand on my head, I will enjoy good health and long life. I may put this theory into practice, but if there is no evidence to back up my theory, my practice is empty and worthless, and I will not necessarily enjoy good health and long life. So could you please define theory for us -- do you mean this in the scientific sense or what?

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

14

to Maximus

by anon in

jw
friends

thanks for your most recent e-mail.

will try again later.. briefly, i do disagree on some points (i am not violent though), agree on some others.

some i would prefer to discuss privately for sake of my own conscience.

CPiolo

Anon:

You asked who else , besides JWs, preached woldwide, and who else was nuetral. Off the top of my head, I provided two examples and with a five minute internet search provided documentation. So while this may make a distinction between some other groups, JWs are by no means unique in this regard. With further research, one could probably find many more examples.

Just because one is ignorant of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist and so your or my ignorance of other groups does not mean there aren't any. I believe the Shakers also did not fight or go to war. Of course, there aren't many left because they took Paul's words to be celebate until the soon-to-be "end" to heart, and they've pretty much died off.

Yes, the NT says that Christians should be evangelizers, but why does this have to mean going door to door, as others on this forum have documented, one of the most inefficient and least successful ways to indoctrinate someone. The Mormons have far greater success using a similar technique, but use other means and media as well. It might be interesting to research why they are so much more successful than "God's organization."

Regarding being approached by other groups, I've been approached by dozens here in Southern California --at the university, on the street, in restaurants, in shopping centers, at the movie theater, through mutual friends, through family-- these include a broad spectrum of Christian groups--from fringe groups like Mormons and JWs to Evangelists, Fundamentalists, Catholics. These invitations have been for things ranging from Bible studies, religious services, picnics, barbeques, pot-lucks, campfire meetings, revival meetings, and more. I don't know where you live, but I am approached constantly.

So, I still fail to see the uniqueness of JWs in this respect. The JWs are distinct in only a couple of areas that I can see -- one, their abstinence of certain types of blood transfusions at the cost of their lives and the lives of loved ones; two, the number and frequency of their failed predictions/prophecies for armageddon.

There probably isn't a Christian group that doesn't have it bad points and its good points, and its unique take on Christianity. So in some respect, each and every group is unique and distinct. Can you provide documentation the JWs are more unique in a positive way that all other Christian groups? I don't believe you can. I don't believe the Bible even requires such a thing, but then again, I could be wrong.

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

137

Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

CPiolo

Dunsscot:

You've responded to almost all posters, with two notable exceptions -- Farkel and AlanF. They both made some valid points that you haven't addressed. I particularly would like to hear your response to the challenge Alan put to you.

Why have you avoided answering them? Are you not up to the challenge and/or unable to respond? Avoiding difficult questions shows just how deep your "truth" is.

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

14

to Maximus

by anon in

jw
friends

thanks for your most recent e-mail.

will try again later.. briefly, i do disagree on some points (i am not violent though), agree on some others.

some i would prefer to discuss privately for sake of my own conscience.

CPiolo

Anon:

Also, I have been going door to door for 35 years and would have to state that I do see a difference between JW's and other groups. Two examples:
Preaching - If JW's are not carrying out Matt 24 & 28, who is?
Neutrality - JW's stand out here too in not killing their fellow man.

Two groups that fulfill both these statements are the Mennonites and The Society of Friends (Quakers). They both have a worldwide ministry and believe in love and nonresistance.

Mennonites on nuetrality:

13. Love and Nonresistance
We believe that God in Christ reconciles people to Himself and to one another, making peace through the cross. We seek to be agents of reconciliation, to practice love of enemies, and to express Christ’s love by alleviating suffering, reducing strife, and promoting justice. Because violence and warfare are contrary to the gospel of Christ, we believe that we are called to give alternative service in times of war.

Quoted from this page: http://www.mbconf.ca/faithlife/confession/digest.html at this site: http://www.mbchurch.sk.ca/resources.cfm

The Society of Friends on peace:

PEACE
We feel bound explicitly to avow our unshaken persuasion that all war is utterly incompatible with the plain precepts of our divine Lord and Law-giver, and the whole spirit of His Gospel, and that no plea of necessity or policy, however urgent or peculiar, can avail to release either individuals or nations from the paramount allegiance which they owe to Him who hath said, "Love your enemies." (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:27) In enjoining this love, and the forgiveness of injuries, He who has brought us to Himself has not prescribed for man precepts which are incapable of being carried into practice, or of which the practice is to be postponed until all shall be persuaded to act upon them. We cannot doubt that they are incumbent now, and that we have in the prophetic Scriptures the distinct intimation of their direct application not only to individuals, but to nations also. (Isa 2:4, Micah 4:1) When nations conform their laws to this divine teaching, wars must necessarily cease.
We would, in humility, but in faithfulness to our Lord, express our firm persuasion that all the exigencies of civil government and social order may be met under the banner of the Prince of Peace, in strict conformity with His commands.

Quoted from this page: http://www.quakerinfo.com/article1072.html#Peace at this site: http://www.quakerinfo.com/page1001.html

The Watchtower has misled you about their uniqueness in regards to these things. There are many Christian groups that preach throughout the world. How many of these are nuetral, I don't know. But with a little research on your own, you could probably find many that fulfill these requirements.

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

Edited for bad code.

6

The Passionate Life

by GinnyTosken in

jw
friends

one of my favorite books is sam keen's the passionate life.

sam keen regards eros as an impulse or energy that links us to the whole web of life rather than a strictly sexual-romantic thing.

his goal in this book is to help us recover 'a healthy passion' for life.

CPiolo

Ginny:

I always enjoy your posts.

After seeing several suggestions to read Eric Hoffers The True Believer, I purchased a copy and have almost completed it. Your post ties in well with Hoffer's book.

Hoffer suggests that those who join mass movements do so to avoid personal liberty and responsibility, even though the movement itself may be fighting for these very things. He goes on to say that their motivation is one of self-loathing and a sense of their unimportance or lack of success. By joining these movements all decisions are made for them, squashing their personal liberty and removing personal responsibility. This ties in with the Jehovah father figure, Organization mother figure, etc. Such individuals are, of course, incomplete and not fully mature.

Of those raised in such movements he says:

Thus people raised in the atmosphere of a mass movement are fashioned into incomplete and dependent human beings even when they have within themselves the making of self-sufficient entities. Though strangers to frustration and without a greivance, they will yet exhibit the peculiarities of people who crave to lose themselves and be rid of an existence that is irrevocably spoiled.

You've probably already read the book, but I throw my two cents in a recommend it along with all the others who already have.

Take care,

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

Edited for bad code.

29

New Insights on History of Jesus

by Amazing in

jw
friends

last year on h20 much was discussed about whether jesus was a historical person.

it was brought out that no mention of jesus is ever made outside the works of christians (presuming that all christian historians are biased) except for the the writings of roman historian, flavius josephus.

and, even the brief mentioin of jesus in josephus works are challenged by some as being spurious addtions to some manuscripts.

CPiolo

JanH:

Thanks for the info and the links. I will check them out. You reaffirmed what I'd read about the spurious Josephus account of Jesus -- that an observant Jew would not call him the Messiah, which would be blasphemous to a Jew. I had also read that the text appears to have been inserted and awkwardly interrupts the text in which it appears, as well as that it is out of character with Josephus' writing to devote only two paragraphs to someone as important as the Messiah, when he devotes page upon page to many lesser unimportant individuals.

Yeru:

I don't believe Jan has ever stated that he dismisses a historical Jesus. What he dismissed is one of the two accounts by Josephus.

Using acceptable norms of historical scholarship, there is no doubt that Jesus was a real person.

If this is true, how do you account for the debate among reputable historians as to the veracity of a historical Jesus?

The question remains, how much of that person do we really see in the bible?

Here you've hit the nail on the head for me. How much of the accounts of miracles and such can be accepted as historical fact, especially when many of these accounts reflect other older religious accounts and legends -- Egyptian, Greek, Mithrain, Zoroastrian and more? As I mentioned earlier, the Jesus Seminar, in a poll of the scholars who are members of the seminar, reached the conclusion that 80% or more of what Jesus has been attributed to have said in the Gospels, was in fact, not said by Jesus. This work is published in The Five Gospels by the Jesus Seminar. There was no consensus among the scholars, and other scholars who are not members of the seminar have differing opiniions, but the work raises interesting questions as to who really was Jesus of the Bible.

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde