to Maximus

by anon 14 Replies latest jw friends

  • anon
    anon

    Thanks for your most recent e-mail. My e-mails to you have not gotten through. Will try again later.

    Briefly, I do disagree on some points (I am not violent though), agree on some others. Some I would prefer to discuss privately for sake of my own conscience.

    Publicly I will inquire as to opinion (anyone's) of BMJ discussion on blood that Furuli was involved in.

    Also, I have been going door to door for 35 years and would have to state that I do see a difference between JW's and other groups. Two examples:
    Preaching - If JW's are not carrying out Matt 24 & 28, who is?
    Neutrality - JW's stand out here too in not killing their fellow man.

    [email protected]

  • LDH
    LDH

    Welcome, Anon! Maximus is the bomb! I'm sure he'll reply.

    JWs are NOT the only religion who believe in neutrality and not killing their fellow man. This is just something told to JW so often over and over, that they now believe it.

    If you remember, Mahatma Gandhi was one of the post non-violent, yet effective, reformers the world has ever seen.

    As for the preaching work, my personal opinion is that Jesus never imagined a worldwide publishing conglomerate that puts out billions of magazines that their followers attempt to sell door to door. Do you know the phrase "How many magazines did you place today?" It is really just another way of saying, "Did you sell anything today?" It has NOTHING to do with preaching the good news about the Christ, which can be accomplished with NO bboks or magazines.

    If you think the focus of JW isn't the publications, try going in service this weekend with your BIBLE only, and see how far you get.

    PLEASE stick around a while, and welcome.
    Lisa

  • anon
    anon

    Ghandi was an individual. Note the events surrounding Indian independence from Britain and continued violence until now. Very few international groups could actually claim neutrality.

    I am not sure of comment on only using Bible in service. I have at times done so. What problems should I expect?

  • julien
    julien
    Neutrality - JW's stand out here too in not killing their fellow man.

    Not many people would say that war is a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary evil. I would say rather that JWs are shirking their duty to the country they live in. I am thankful for the men who have gone to war and fought for our way of life; otherwise the world might be run by someone like Hitler right now.

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    There are several religious groups that believe they should refrain from killing their fellow men. I'm pretty sure Quakers are in that group.

    Just like JWs, however, (now that "new light" has dawned) they will accept non-combat positions in order to fulfill military obligations.

    There are also many religious groups that engage in door-to-door preaching (if that's what floats your boat). Mormons, and the International Church of Christ are two that come to mind. They also conduct Bible studies and all the typical JW stuff.

    So.....JWs are not particularly unique in these areas. Additionally, some very good arguments have been presented here and on other boards concerning the validity of the house-to-house preaching by all members of a church. Examining Jesus' words closely indicates that not all would be involved in this sort of "ministry", thereby invalidating any religious group that makes the house-to-house work a requirement rather than an option.

  • CPiolo
    CPiolo

    Anon:

    Also, I have been going door to door for 35 years and would have to state that I do see a difference between JW's and other groups. Two examples:
    Preaching - If JW's are not carrying out Matt 24 & 28, who is?
    Neutrality - JW's stand out here too in not killing their fellow man.

    Two groups that fulfill both these statements are the Mennonites and The Society of Friends (Quakers). They both have a worldwide ministry and believe in love and nonresistance.

    Mennonites on nuetrality:

    13. Love and Nonresistance
    We believe that God in Christ reconciles people to Himself and to one another, making peace through the cross. We seek to be agents of reconciliation, to practice love of enemies, and to express Christ’s love by alleviating suffering, reducing strife, and promoting justice. Because violence and warfare are contrary to the gospel of Christ, we believe that we are called to give alternative service in times of war.

    Quoted from this page: http://www.mbconf.ca/faithlife/confession/digest.html at this site: http://www.mbchurch.sk.ca/resources.cfm

    The Society of Friends on peace:

    PEACE

    We feel bound explicitly to avow our unshaken persuasion that all war is utterly incompatible with the plain precepts of our divine Lord and Law-giver, and the whole spirit of His Gospel, and that no plea of necessity or policy, however urgent or peculiar, can avail to release either individuals or nations from the paramount allegiance which they owe to Him who hath said, "Love your enemies." (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:27) In enjoining this love, and the forgiveness of injuries, He who has brought us to Himself has not prescribed for man precepts which are incapable of being carried into practice, or of which the practice is to be postponed until all shall be persuaded to act upon them. We cannot doubt that they are incumbent now, and that we have in the prophetic Scriptures the distinct intimation of their direct application not only to individuals, but to nations also. (Isa 2:4, Micah 4:1) When nations conform their laws to this divine teaching, wars must necessarily cease.

    We would, in humility, but in faithfulness to our Lord, express our firm persuasion that all the exigencies of civil government and social order may be met under the banner of the Prince of Peace, in strict conformity with His commands.

    Quoted from this page: http://www.quakerinfo.com/article1072.html#Peace at this site: http://www.quakerinfo.com/page1001.html

    The Watchtower has misled you about their uniqueness in regards to these things. There are many Christian groups that preach throughout the world. How many of these are nuetral, I don't know. But with a little research on your own, you could probably find many that fulfill these requirements.

    CPiolo

    The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

    Edited for bad code.

  • slipnslidemaster
    slipnslidemaster

    LDH wrote:

    If you think the focus of JW isn't the publications, try going in service this weekend with your BIBLE only, and see how far you get.

    Anon responded:

    I am not sure of comment on only using Bible in service. I have at times done so. What problems should I expect?

    LDH, you are on the right track and I commend Anon for preaching with just your Bible.

    I would add this: Anon, try going out in service for the next 6 months with just your Bible. No publications. Don't place any publications. The problems that LDH hint at will manifest themselves very quickly. They will NOT be from the householders. In fact, I believe that the householders will be more responsive not less.

    The trouble will come from another source. Try it and tell me what happens. Or simulate it by not reporting any placements for a couple of months. Of course, I expect your reaction to be that you can't/won't do this. Ask yourself why and you will start to see what "problems" will appear.

    Slipnslidemaster: "The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad."
    - Salvador Dali

  • anon
    anon

    I took the time to look at Mennonite site referenced. They do take a stand against war. Amish groups do this also. The Mennonites do claim a worldwide membership. That is commendable in my view if they put that into practice. How many others do this? Not many, so it is still a notable distinction.
    They also say they should be evangelizers. There appears to be several churches in my metro area. I have never been called on by a Mennonite in any of the states I have lived in. The only other group I have ever been approached by is the Mormons. I did not find any specific references to how they do the evangelizing that you mentioned. Do you have any more info on this?
    The call for Christians to individually be evangelizers is quite common. The Catholic church states much the same. This caused quite a stir last year when Pope affirmed there is only one true church and Catholics should be evangelizers. I should think the Catholics could preach to everyone in the world in a relatively short time if the members could be motivated to do so. Protestants also have the same problem. Remember Key '73? When someone is approaching a home to preach the reaction usually is 'It must be JW's' (sometimes Mormons), not 'It must be those Mennonites (Catholics, Protestants, etc.) again!'
    So while some groups (very few) do stay out of wars and some do preach as individuals (Mormons primarily), I conclude that only JW's really do both. Of course there are other requirements, but I only mention two.
    As for the Hitler danger reference, if you had been born in Germany you would have been shirking your duty if you did not try to put the world under Hitler.
    The last post I saw dealt with literature placements. I see value in the literature, so why wouldn't I offer it? The Ethiopian in Acts asked for help. Why is it an issue whether the help is spoken or written?

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    I'm really glad to hear from you, for the reasons I noted. I've had some personally anguishing experiences with individuals who in the process of re-examining a long-held belief system were overwhelmed, seemingly with no way out, with tragic consequence.

    Someone was kind enough to alert me to your post; I'll write privately. My hotmail account has been jammed, hard to keep it pared down to size limit. Great that you are posting here--take the best, leave the rest.

    For me, it is not so much how JWs stand out from other groups, but one major concern is that admittedly fallible men are insisting they be looked on as de facto infallible even when unable to answer reasonable questions; i.e., a governing body that operates by vote, not even consensus much less unanimity, and a group of individuals who transmit that as "policy" or position.

    One is told to be humble, wait on Jehovah. (Translation: wait on organizational change, a shift in the vote or external pressure that forces an issue.) Policies change; we've seen it many times over many decades. There are some policies they are insisting on today but offer no refutation for Scriptural arguments presented them, from all over the world. They just recite a policy, not even attempting to defend it. And if your conscience tells you otherwise, and you speak about it, you will face severe punishment and so will your innocent family.

    There are very troubling issues over which the GB is not unified, and it is no secret that power struggles are going on despite public reassurances to the contrary. Some GB members are most unhappy. Where does individual conscience come in for us?

    Just before its w 10/15/00 QFR on blood, the Society printed a very interesting article on Grew and Storrs, who learned "the truth" about Trinity and hellfire early on. Grew was a highly respected minister in the Methodist-Episcopal Church. The Watchtower says: "Finally, since no one could refute the things he was learning, George Storrs decided that he could not be faithful to God if he remained in the Methodist Church. He resigned in 1840." The article cites Charles Taze Russell's input from Storrs, and CTR's comment: "We ever sought not to be followers of men, however good and wise, but 'Followers of God as dear children.'"

    We are ultimately accountable to God for the faith we embrace, for the course we take. Not to a faceless organization that is faltering.

    As to Matt. 24 and 20, I had occasion to speak to the author of "Birth of the Messiah," and "Death of the Messiah," exhaustive works, just before his death. Of course, I came from the perspective and tradition of over half a century of seeing organizational edicts. Surely he would have an exhaustive answer on this subject. I asked about it with bated breath.

    "The Great Command? Ah, yes. Christian evangelism. Know what that is?
    That's one beggar telling another where the food is."

    I got it.

    Maximus

  • CPiolo
    CPiolo

    Anon:

    You asked who else , besides JWs, preached woldwide, and who else was nuetral. Off the top of my head, I provided two examples and with a five minute internet search provided documentation. So while this may make a distinction between some other groups, JWs are by no means unique in this regard. With further research, one could probably find many more examples.

    Just because one is ignorant of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist and so your or my ignorance of other groups does not mean there aren't any. I believe the Shakers also did not fight or go to war. Of course, there aren't many left because they took Paul's words to be celebate until the soon-to-be "end" to heart, and they've pretty much died off.

    Yes, the NT says that Christians should be evangelizers, but why does this have to mean going door to door, as others on this forum have documented, one of the most inefficient and least successful ways to indoctrinate someone. The Mormons have far greater success using a similar technique, but use other means and media as well. It might be interesting to research why they are so much more successful than "God's organization."

    Regarding being approached by other groups, I've been approached by dozens here in Southern California --at the university, on the street, in restaurants, in shopping centers, at the movie theater, through mutual friends, through family-- these include a broad spectrum of Christian groups--from fringe groups like Mormons and JWs to Evangelists, Fundamentalists, Catholics. These invitations have been for things ranging from Bible studies, religious services, picnics, barbeques, pot-lucks, campfire meetings, revival meetings, and more. I don't know where you live, but I am approached constantly.

    So, I still fail to see the uniqueness of JWs in this respect. The JWs are distinct in only a couple of areas that I can see -- one, their abstinence of certain types of blood transfusions at the cost of their lives and the lives of loved ones; two, the number and frequency of their failed predictions/prophecies for armageddon.

    There probably isn't a Christian group that doesn't have it bad points and its good points, and its unique take on Christianity. So in some respect, each and every group is unique and distinct. Can you provide documentation the JWs are more unique in a positive way that all other Christian groups? I don't believe you can. I don't believe the Bible even requires such a thing, but then again, I could be wrong.

    CPiolo

    The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

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