Eduardo:
I think your post is directed at me. So, let me respond to some of your comments.
My point about homosexual behavior occurring throughout the animal kingdom wasn't meant as a justification. What it shows is that it is not an aberration, but rather quite common and natural, occurring for distinct reasons in different species. I drop that line of reasoning, because I wanted to pursue another -- the genetic factor. I only mentioned it to illustrate that humans are not the only animal to demonstrate such behavior and that if God created everything, he created other beings besides humans who demonstrate homosexual behavior. We share many behaviors with other animals -- eating, drinking, sleeping, bathing, sexual reproduction, nursing our young, living in groups, etc.
Your examples of "unnatural" animal behavior show ignorance as to exactly what these behaviors are and why they occur. While not a biologist, let me address one -- eating one's vomit.
Vomiting is a sign of illness or disease. Animals do not usually eat vomit. They do often regurgitate (expel undigested food) and eat that -- entirely different.
Regurgitation can occur for several reasons such as eating too quickly or as a natural part of the digestive process (chewing cud). Some animals also regurgitate to feed their young, which helps young with immature digestive tracts or where it would be impossible to bring a whole carcass to the nest or den.
Eating what one has regurgitated makes sense when considering the effort most animals expend in obtaining food. It requires far less energy to eat the regurgitated food than to look for and/or hunt for a new source of food, thus helping in the survival of the individual.
You also ignore the immense variety of human behaviors. There are things we do in Western society that are viewed as weird, aberrant, vile and disgusting by other cultures. Other cultures do things we don't understand, find just as weird, aberrant, vile and disgusting as they find our behavior. Even some Biblical customs, if practiced today, would be found abhorrent -- stoning to death disobedient children and non-virtuous women by their husbands. Or in the case of JWs, allowing oneself to die rather than accept life-saving blood transfusions(suicide), or letting the same fate befall one's child (murder) is found an abomination by most of what you call "civilized" society.
The point is that our disgust is learned. You could, of course, point out that we just need to learn the correct (in this case Biblical) behavior. But then we have the never ending conflict of who's the proper authority and whose interpretation of ancient scripture is correct.
Secondly, I wasn't speaking only to JWs, nor necessarily only to Christians. As well, I am not a JW, just an interested one. But here you begin to address my original question, from a JW perspective at least. That's what I was looking for.
Your response leads me to some more questions.
In JW theology, is Jehovah omnipresent, omniscient, and all powerful?
Is He not responsible for the created universe?
If so, isn't He responsible for everything in it, including whatever defects there may be, including allowing Adam and Eve to fall and condemn all of mankind to imperfection?
Can you support Biblically the notion that Adam and Eve are defective genetically? It would seem difficult, since the existence of genes is comparatively a recent discovery, certainly not something ancient Hebrews would have been aware of nor have been able to comprehend.
The Bible of course talks about disease and death as punishment for their indiscretion. Where does the Bible mention God altering genes?
How did a perfect human couple make an imperfect choice leading to the condemnation of all future generations?
Is there a specific imperfection gene or is it a combination of genes that leads to our imperfection?
The evidence that homosexuality is genetic keeps getting stronger. God/Jehovah being responsible for the created universe would then have to be responsible. He would also be responsible for Down's syndrome, cleft palates, poor vision, sickle cell anemia, etc., etc., etc.
Even if all of this can be blamed on good old Adam and Eve, why so much condemnation of homosexuals and no condemnation of those who suffer from Down's syndrome (we could always condemn them for their lack of intelligence) and other genetic defects caused by the Fall? Are these individuals abominations as well? If not, why? Why so much focus on sexual "defects"?
Could it be because this is one of strongest and most base drives and one of the most difficult to control, like hunger?
Why is God testing these individuals in such a cruel manner?
By not being natural, I assume you speaking in religious/moral terms, not in scientific terms. In the scientific sense, all that occurs is natural, including everything resulting from the Fall.
There are and have been many societies throughout time that accept and have accepted homosexuals, bisexuals, and transgendered people as just some of the many aspects of natural occurring human existence. But then maybe they're just, through their tolerance and acceptance, demonstrating more imperfection.
CPiolo
CPiolo
JoinedPosts by CPiolo
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Why does God create abominations?
by CPiolo inmany religious folks, including fundamentalists, moderates and liberals, from a multitude of faiths, including jehovah?s witnesses, claim that homosexuals, bisexuals and trans-gendered individuals are abominations in the eyes of god.
they believe these people are sinners of the worst sort, that their behavior is a perversion, is evil, dangerous and a threat to society, the family and/or ?family values.?
these poor souls are going to be punished in some way by god for their choices and behavior ?
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CPiolo
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NEW 2003 Worldwide Service Report
by Joker10 infor all those curious, here's a look at the new 2003 report.
jehovah's witnesses have been growing, but not a whole lot.
a peak of 6,429,351 publishers reported preaching in 235 lands.
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CPiolo
The Witness organization may have grown last year, but their gain of market share (in other words their piece of the pie) is insignificant.
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Why does God create abominations?
by CPiolo inmany religious folks, including fundamentalists, moderates and liberals, from a multitude of faiths, including jehovah?s witnesses, claim that homosexuals, bisexuals and trans-gendered individuals are abominations in the eyes of god.
they believe these people are sinners of the worst sort, that their behavior is a perversion, is evil, dangerous and a threat to society, the family and/or ?family values.?
these poor souls are going to be punished in some way by god for their choices and behavior ?
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CPiolo
Phantom:
My questions were somewhat rhetorical, but at the same time I would like someone with the mindset that any sexual behavior other than heterosexual behavior is somehow an abomination in the eyes of God to explain this when the evidence and data keep mounting that it is nature (read God) not nurture that determines one's sexuality and gender identity.
SF Jim:
Opinions and assholes -- we all have them and they often stink!
Abaddon:
I think you fail to understand that I don't take the point of view that such behavior is an abomination. I want someone who does have that point of view to explain why God creates something that they believe God abhors.
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Many here seem to focusing exclusively on homosexuals, but sexuality is a continuum not a duality (heterosexual vs. homosexual) and there are many shades of gray in between. There are also transgendered individuals -- those who feel they've been born into the wrong body, i.e. a man in a woman's body and visa versa. Some of these people have surgery to correct what they feel has been a mistake -- transsexuals. These people may be of various sexual orientations as well -- homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, etc.
The saddest part, IMHO, is that we as a species seem so quick to judge, but so slow to try to understand and show some compassion for those who are different in some way, not just sexually, but including race, religion, nationality, ethnicity and whatever minutia we decide to focus on.
Exclusivist/elitist religions are large contributers to the problem, again IMHO. -
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Why does God create abominations?
by CPiolo inmany religious folks, including fundamentalists, moderates and liberals, from a multitude of faiths, including jehovah?s witnesses, claim that homosexuals, bisexuals and trans-gendered individuals are abominations in the eyes of god.
they believe these people are sinners of the worst sort, that their behavior is a perversion, is evil, dangerous and a threat to society, the family and/or ?family values.?
these poor souls are going to be punished in some way by god for their choices and behavior ?
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CPiolo
>>I might add that you can't observe homosexual animal behavior, because since the fall of Adam & Eve, the animals have been imperfect too.
So, let me get this straight. You can't observe homosexual animal behavior because it is perfect behavior and animals now being imperfect no longer diplay this perfect behavior.
Or did you mean to say that animals now display imperfect homosexual behavior because God is also punishing the entire animal kingdom for the sins of one human couple? That's even worse than punishing an entire species for the sins of one couple. But this is, of course, another topic. Maybe someone should start a new thread.
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Why does God create abominations?
by CPiolo inmany religious folks, including fundamentalists, moderates and liberals, from a multitude of faiths, including jehovah?s witnesses, claim that homosexuals, bisexuals and trans-gendered individuals are abominations in the eyes of god.
they believe these people are sinners of the worst sort, that their behavior is a perversion, is evil, dangerous and a threat to society, the family and/or ?family values.?
these poor souls are going to be punished in some way by god for their choices and behavior ?
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CPiolo
Got it. Seems to be a browser issue. I tried a different browser and no problem. Simon, it seems your code doesn't work well with all browsers, especially Mac versions.
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Why does God create abominations?
by CPiolo inmany religious folks, including fundamentalists, moderates and liberals, from a multitude of faiths, including jehovah?s witnesses, claim that homosexuals, bisexuals and trans-gendered individuals are abominations in the eyes of god.
they believe these people are sinners of the worst sort, that their behavior is a perversion, is evil, dangerous and a threat to society, the family and/or ?family values.?
these poor souls are going to be punished in some way by god for their choices and behavior ?
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CPiolo
I've know. I was trying to reformat while you posted, but for some reason I can't.
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Why does God create abominations?
by CPiolo inmany religious folks, including fundamentalists, moderates and liberals, from a multitude of faiths, including jehovah?s witnesses, claim that homosexuals, bisexuals and trans-gendered individuals are abominations in the eyes of god.
they believe these people are sinners of the worst sort, that their behavior is a perversion, is evil, dangerous and a threat to society, the family and/or ?family values.?
these poor souls are going to be punished in some way by god for their choices and behavior ?
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CPiolo
Many religious folks, including fundamentalists, moderates and liberals, from a multitude of faiths, including Jehovah?s Witnesses, claim that homosexuals, bisexuals and trans-gendered individuals are abominations in the eyes of God. They believe these people are sinners of the worst sort, that their behavior is a perversion, is evil, dangerous and a threat to society, the family and/or ?family values.? These poor souls are going to be punished in some way by God for their choices and behavior ? go to hell, lose their opportunity for resurrection, heaven, earthly paradise, 72 virgins, rebirth to a higher caste or whatever payoff there is for those who behave ?properly? according to the edicts of their faith.
Never mind that homosexual behavior is found throughout the animal kingdom (see Broca?s Brain by Carl Sagan). It is often said that these people simply need to make the correct and moral (heterosexual) choice. They shouldn?t give in to temptation and evil. Oftentimes it is believed that with counseling and therapy these deviants can be cured and return to God?s good grace.
For a long time there have strong statistical indicators that sexuality is determined genetically (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/nature-nurture/bailey-pillard.html). Studies involving identical twins (individuals with identical genes) separated at birth (which tends to negate environmental factors and enhance the argument of nature over nurture) have a significantly higher incidence of homosexuality when the other twin is homosexual. The incidence is much higher than that of other biological as well as adopted siblings.
It now seems that biologists have discovered the very genes that determine sexuality and gender identity (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3647262). There is now evidence that these things are determined before we are born. These people don?t choose their behavior or the way they feel. They are not giving into temptation. They aren?t making a choice. These things are determined by their genetic makeup.
In other words, in the worldview of many religious people, God creates, what are in God?s own eyes, abominations. God creates that which God abhors. God creates individuals who have no choice but to feel and behave in ways that God finds intolerable.
But how can this be? Why would God create such deviant creatures? Why would God create people that are to be the object of God?s own wrath, to be the object of the bigotry, hate and abuse of ?good? and ?moral? people who have God?s good grace? Can someone please explain this to me? I certainly don?t understand it.
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A Curiosity
by ozziepost inback in 1972 the wtb&ts published a new translation of the bible, "the bible in living english", otherwise known as byington's translation.. who was byington?.
the publisher's note tells us that steven t byington was born in 1868 and studied languages at a university and a theological seminary.
he was a member of the congregational church in massachusetts, usa and the translation was almost his lifetime's work.
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CPiolo
I've seen the name Jehovah used often in the 19th and early 20th centuries by both the religious and non-religious (Robert Ingersoll comes to mind). It seems to have been fashionable. The American Standard Version of the Bible also uses Jehovah. Wasn't this Bible also used by JWs before they had their own translation? How does the Society now view the ASV or versions that use Yahweh? I don't know where all this is leading, just food for thought I guess. CPiolo
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Hypocrisy of the First Order by JWs
by AlanF injehovah's witnesses are known for their hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to how they treat others and how they want to be treated by others.
as to why heinze and paul were kicked off.. .
in the best interest of the club to remove paul and heinz from our .
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CPiolo
Hello All: I haven't posted in quite some time, but do stop by and lurk from time to time. Maybe some here still remember me. Anyway, I thought I'd relate a recent episode with my wife. A little background info. I'm a non-JW married to an active and zealous JW. Recently, my wife switched doctors and went in for a physical. She related to me the following: The doctor began by telling her of his approach to treating patients. He tried to view his patients in a holistic manner -- as physical, psychological and spiritual beings -- and tried to treat them with these things in mind. He wanted her to not only let him know of her physical ailments, but to also relate how things were psychological/emotionally as well as spiritually. She didn't tell me exactly how much or what she related to the doctor, but he ordered some lab work -- blood, urine, etc. -- before proceeding with the physical. During the consultation, he made some suggestions regarding diet and exercise, and gave her the name of a book he thought would be helpful -- a book written by a Catholic priest of all things! She was absolutely incensed that he had made such a suggestion, although I don't think she related this to the doctor. However, she sure let me know. Now, I don't know exactly who the author was, nor exactly what the book talked about. It may have had nothing to do with Catholicism for all I know. I don't think my wife knows either. She threw the name of the book and the author away before arriving home. The author being Catholic was enough to dismiss it without a thought. She already had a religion, thank you very much She didn't need any advice or help from anyone else. She then went on denigrating Catholic priests and nuns. Priests are homosexuals and child molesters. Nuns are lesbians. She even heard of a nun who had an IUD! -- this despite their vows of celibacy. I then asked her why she was so upset with someone suggesting some spiritual reading material. Wasn?t that what she spent so much time preparing for and doing? Wasn?t that one of the primary activities of her religion? She replied that she hardly ever had a chance to speak to anyone (a nice dodge that avoids the question). Most people just say they?re not interested. I replied that she could of just done the same -- say thank you, but I?m not interested. I didn?t think she should be so upset (rather hypocritical, although I didn?t say so). She didn?t see my point and was upset I didn?t see things from her perspective. Toodles, CPiolo
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Calling all Los Angeles folks
by animal inas some of you know, i commute from phoenix, az to los angeles for my job.
it will last thru january.. several of us have been unsuccessful in getting together thus far, but came up with a plan during a weekend i am there.
i will be staying over thru the weekend of january 4th, in the hotel in el segundo, http://www.embassysuites.com/en/es/hotels/index.jhtml?ctyhocn=laxeses .. the hotel has a happy hour from 530pm to 730pm, guests are included.
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CPiolo
Animal,
I don't post much any more, but if I'm welcome, I will try to make it up.
Farkel,
I didn't know you'd left beautiful SD. Where did you move to, if you don't mind sharing? I lived in SD for almost 10 years and still miss it also. I visit as often as possible. It's amazing the changes taking place. The downtown skyline is filling with high-rise condominiums. It was only a matter of time before the secret of SD was discovered.
CPiolo