skeeter1

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Posts by skeeter1

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  22

  Winnipeg Free Press, article by Kerry Louderback-Wood (scan) Mar. 1/07

  by kwintestal in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  for a print quality scan of the article, please go to: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/412824234_0a78354c22_b.jpg.

  otherwise, a web quality scan is below.. .

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  skeeter1

  Sorry Neo, sometimes I forget a sense of humor. Thanks for lightening the air around this issue.

  Skeeter
• 
  22

  Winnipeg Free Press, article by Kerry Louderback-Wood (scan) Mar. 1/07

  by kwintestal in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  for a print quality scan of the article, please go to: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/412824234_0a78354c22_b.jpg.

  otherwise, a web quality scan is below.. .

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  skeeter1

  Neo, you show your ignorance when you take a mere illustration, based on lure, as black & white. It's plain to see.that the Watchtower has warped your thinking. In any event, here's some interesting reading on your apple question.....

  Skeeter

  Was the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden an apple?

  24-Nov-2006

  ---

  Dear Cecil:

  Where did the idea come from that the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden was an apple? Genesis just says "fruit." Does Jewish tradition have it as an apple, or is it strictly a Christian thing? Come to think of it, the fruit of discord of the Greek goddess Eris was also an apple. Why are apples considered to be the troublemakers of the produce world? — Sluggo, via e-mail

  Cecil replies:

  The apple's many admirers like to portray it as a symbol of wholesomeness — apple cheeks, an apple for teacher, and so forth. Don't be deceived. This is a fruit with a history.

  Let's review the story. Genesis depicts Adam and Eve leading the plush life in Eden. They may eat fruit from any tree except one, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Unsurprisingly, they eat the forbidden fruit and are expelled from paradise. As you suggest, the original Hebrew says only "fruit," but in latter-day Western art ranging from serious religious painting to about a million cartoons, the item in question is invariably depicted as an apple.

  But it wasn't always. Early rabbis suggested the fruit was:

  • the fig, because the next verse mentions sewing together fig leaves to make loincloths;

  • grapes, which later cause trouble for Noah, not to mention many other vino lovers;

  • the citron, a lemonlike fruit which in Hebrew is etrog, a pun on ragag, "desire";

  • wheat, khitah in Hebrew and thus a pun on khet, "sin" — a stretch, considering wheat isn't a fruit and doesn't grow on trees; or
  • the carob, because in Hebrew its name puns on the word for "destruction."

  Many modern scholars think the author(s) of the text had the pomegranate in mind.

  Genesis doesn't mention apples, but Proverbs 25:11 says a timely word is like apples of gold in a setting of silver. More significantly, in the Song of Solomon the apple is an erotic symbol indicating sweetness, desire, and the female breast, which gives you an idea how things are starting to go, metaphorwise.

  Early Christian scholars often took the forbidden fruit to be an apple, possibly because of the irresistible pun suggested by the Latin malum, which means both "apple" and "evil." At least one early Latin translation of the bible uses "apple" instead of "fruit." A contributing factor no doubt was that apples were a lot more popular in Europe than in the Middle East, where it's generally too hot for them to thrive.

  It wasn't just Christians who picked up on the apple's racy side. The most famous apple of Greek myth is the one you cite, the gold apple labeled "To the fairest" that Eris, goddess of discord, throws among the guests at a wedding party, leading to the judgment of Paris (he has to choose whether Hera, Aphrodite, or Athena is the most beautiful) and ultimately to the Trojan War. You get the picture: apples may look good, but they're trouble. Christian scholars knew the Greek myths and adapted many to their new religion.

  Still, the apple wasn't the unanimous choice for forbidden fruit. Carved depictions of Adam and Eve with apples are found in early Christian catacombs and on sarcophagi. The apple was the favored representation of the forbidden fruit in Christian art in France and Germany beginning around the 12th century. But Byzantine and Italian artists tended to go with the fig.

  In fact, you can read Christian iconography as a long, twilight struggle between figs and apples over which is the alpha temptation symbol. The apple has a lot to recommend it: red (blood) or golden (greed), round (fertility) and sweet-tasting (desire). The fig, on the other hand, has a certain phallic look, noted as far back as the ancient Greeks, who, admittedly, thought everything looked phallic. By the Renaissance, almost simultaneously we have Albrecht Dürer depicting Adam and Eve and the serpent with an apple (1504, 1507), and Michelangelo equipping the same cast with figs on the Sistine Chapel ceiling (circa 1510).

  Ultimately the apple prevailed. In Areopagitica (1644), Milton explicitly described the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil as an apple, and that was pretty much the ball game. Islamic tradition, however, commonly represents the forbidden fruit as the fig or olive.

  A related question: what's meant by the "knowledge of good and evil"? Take your pick:

  • Ethical discrimination, knowing right from wrong. One problem with this interpretation: if Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right and wrong before eating the fruit, how would they know disobedience was wrong?

  • Knowledge of sex. The first thing Adam and Eve do after their snack is realize they're naked.

  • Knowledge, period. In this view, "good and evil" is an encompassing bookend phrase, like “A to Z.” Having tasted of the tree, mankind wants to know everything.

  In any event, the gist is clear: knowledge = the loss of innocence; ignorance = bliss.

  —CECIL ADAMS

  [ Comment on this answer ]

  Cecil Adams can deliver the Straight Dope on any topic. Write Cecil at [email protected].
• 
  22

  Winnipeg Free Press, article by Kerry Louderback-Wood (scan) Mar. 1/07

  by kwintestal in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  for a print quality scan of the article, please go to: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/412824234_0a78354c22_b.jpg.

  otherwise, a web quality scan is below.. .

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• 

  skeeter1

  Hey Anderson,

  Looks like the "Big News" is really, really growing very BIG.

  I imagine the JW elders want to stop this type of editorial. Exposes them for what they are, hypocrital wolves ready to kill sheep through twisted words.

  Anyone on JWD in Winnipeg?

  Skeeter
• 
  22

  Winnipeg Free Press, article by Kerry Louderback-Wood (scan) Mar. 1/07

  by kwintestal in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  for a print quality scan of the article, please go to: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/130/412824234_0a78354c22_b.jpg.

  otherwise, a web quality scan is below.. .

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  skeeter1

  Great press! I womder how many JWs saw the editorial......
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  44

  I dropped the BOMB, but it missed???????!!!!!!!

  by Schism in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hello my dearest friends.

  so sorry that i have not been online much.

  i have been quite busy lately!.

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  skeeter1

  I read the following in a book, "The History of God". I thought you might find it fitting... "In the beginning, man created God."
• 
  62

  MCLEANS SEXTUPLETS AND BLOOD ARTICLE - SCANNED COPY FOR YOU

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  please just add an http:// at the beginning of all of these urls, then copy to your browser address area and click away.. i really didn't like to read about how the jws won all these court decisions on freedom when they don't even let their members be free but still the article is balanced enough to leave a serious indent on the side of shane's head.. hawkawl.freeservers.com/mclean's%20cover.jpg.

  hawkawl.freeservers.com/mcleans%20page%2034.jpg.

  hawkawl.freeservers.com/mcleans%20page%2035.jpg.

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  skeeter1

  Thanks Scully,

  Yet another example of the mismatch between the JW dogma and actual practice.

  Skeeter
• 
  62

  MCLEANS SEXTUPLETS AND BLOOD ARTICLE - SCANNED COPY FOR YOU

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  please just add an http:// at the beginning of all of these urls, then copy to your browser address area and click away.. i really didn't like to read about how the jws won all these court decisions on freedom when they don't even let their members be free but still the article is balanced enough to leave a serious indent on the side of shane's head.. hawkawl.freeservers.com/mclean's%20cover.jpg.

  hawkawl.freeservers.com/mcleans%20page%2034.jpg.

  hawkawl.freeservers.com/mcleans%20page%2035.jpg.

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  skeeter1

  Returning the dead space volume after sampling an arterial catheter is also useful.

  I'm not a medical expert, but this sounds like some of the blood that is taken out of the body is actually put back in!!! Do the JWs know this is goingon?

  Skeeter
• 
  167

  Songs to make an '80's Guy (or girl) cry.....

  by avishai in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  another thread inspired this one, and i'm making myself a lil' compilation.... i'll start.

  "just like heaven" the cure.

  "please, please let me get what i want" the smiths....

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  skeeter1

  Not much can make old Skeeter cry...but these two just might do it.

  Send Her My Love - Journey

  Leader of the Band - Dan Fogelberg

  Skeeter
• 
  62

  MCLEANS SEXTUPLETS AND BLOOD ARTICLE - SCANNED COPY FOR YOU

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  please just add an http:// at the beginning of all of these urls, then copy to your browser address area and click away.. i really didn't like to read about how the jws won all these court decisions on freedom when they don't even let their members be free but still the article is balanced enough to leave a serious indent on the side of shane's head.. hawkawl.freeservers.com/mclean's%20cover.jpg.

  hawkawl.freeservers.com/mcleans%20page%2034.jpg.

  hawkawl.freeservers.com/mcleans%20page%2035.jpg.

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  skeeter1

  Due Process. Due process can be a minefield, and there are different types of due process.

  In the US, it can mean as little as the Dept. of Health official making a quick determination ..... to a full blown court hearing. In the US, the application of "due process rights" can depend on whether the govenrment is trying to take away a whole group's rights (no prisoner can marry) versus an individual (these JW parents). Becuase we are dealing with an individual, it's called "procedural due process." The general test is a balancing test - would the cost of the Government delay be very great if Parents were allowed hearings prior to the denial of the benefit. What would be the damage to the Parents if they were denied a full benefit?"

  In some places in the US, a judge will not rule "ahead of time/emergency", as the issue is not "ripe" (legal term). So, perhaps the Canadian judges would not rule ahead of time in this situation. I do not know .

  If doctors/health officials thought time was of the essence (such that babies would have died or suffered set backs), the cost of delaying a hearing in order to grant the parents their right to a hearing, would likely have been too great. Second, what would have been the damage if the parents were denied their hearing? They would not have had their say in court, but would it have mattered anyway? I think not.

  So, if this were in the US and in front of a jurisdiction that would not rule on the matter before it was ripe, I can see where the Dept of Children had to "swoop" in and make a quick determination. And, this determination would likely be legal.

  Skeeter
• 
  62

  MCLEANS SEXTUPLETS AND BLOOD ARTICLE - SCANNED COPY FOR YOU

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  please just add an http:// at the beginning of all of these urls, then copy to your browser address area and click away.. i really didn't like to read about how the jws won all these court decisions on freedom when they don't even let their members be free but still the article is balanced enough to leave a serious indent on the side of shane's head.. hawkawl.freeservers.com/mclean's%20cover.jpg.

  hawkawl.freeservers.com/mcleans%20page%2034.jpg.

  hawkawl.freeservers.com/mcleans%20page%2035.jpg.

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  skeeter1

  If the issue isn't "religious", what's a religion's attorney doing burning up donator's money litigating a secular point of law? It looks to me like the Watch Tower Society is little more than a PAC (Political Action Committee) disguised as a religion.
  

  Gary hit the nail right on the head.

  The WTS says its blood ban is religious, then, now, when they will lose, they say that it's not religious. Flip Flop.