Thanks for the reply Penn.
I am not saying that atheism equals an immoral society, sorry if that is the way I came across. My point was that when someone attacks Christianity and says that 'more bloodhsed has been caused by religion....." I like to make things clear, and I think to drive the point home, discussion of the absence of religion and it's effects does good to prove this point. I am in no way suggesting that atheism causes immorality, but the abscence of believing in a higher form of justice causes some people[ obviously these particular communist leaders] to make themselves God, exterminatinig others for whatever reasons, lack of conformity, race, religion, et al.
Well, I see your point, and that may very well be true, but I doubt that the non-belief in God had anything
explicitly to do with their actions. If you look at history, both contemporary and past, there have been many dictators, many theists, who engage in such behaviour. Normally, a theist would declare that God was on their side and therefore they were morally justified in their action. But even in this case, I would not declare that God was
per se the reason why the person acted the way they did. Some people just have no regard for human life, plain and simple. Belief in God (Christain or otherwise), or non belief usually will not reform the behaviour of certain people. If someone wants to do something they'll do it regardless, a person like Stalin may indeed reason that he is some kind of "God", and a person like Hitler would simply reason that their God backs their action. There are simply too many examples of theist leaders leading mass murders throughout history to make me believe that belief in God makes a person less likely to hold human life in high regard, or being atheist makes it easier. Both do it with ease since both have rationalized their crimes.
Indeed, many Christains have worked hard to improve the life of less fortunate people, including the women of Africa. I applaud such efforts. What I was referring to in my post was the treatment of women as second class citizens in Christain nations. I happen to think that many passages in the bible hold women in lower regard than men, and during the early days of the womens lib. movement (and even today, I venture to guess), many Christain theologians thought it was dangerous or sinful for women to want the equal status of men, since they should be "submissive". My point was, that though Christain women were involved (though as I pointed out many "unchristain" types play a key role), it wasn't a truly "christain" issue, as one could argue that at best the bible is silent on the issue, or at worst, as some theolgians thought, the bible commands women to be "submissive" to men. However, much "props" to the Christains who work with the Africans to better their lives.
You want references for Christains undoing Christain work? Here goes. You said that Christains stopped the persecution of witches? Who were the people who started it? You say Christains helped stop slavery. What was the religion of the people promulgating it in Christain nations? (And what religious book endorses the practice?) Who caused guys like Luther to reform Christanity in the first place? Basically, this shows that good people can be found in any group, and evil in any group as well. God mearly becomes a tool to meet an agenda (even when good results) in most cases.
As far as saying that prisons are filled with Christians, that's becasue people say they are Christians when they have nothing to do with Christ.
Man, Christains love to "punt away" their bad guys
. I understand where you are coming from, but once again you are making my point. Christanity (and other belief systems) mean different things to different people. For a person like yourself, who's looking to do good anyway (I don't know you, but I'll assume you don't steal candy from babies, etc.
), you'll look at all the great stuff like "love your neighbor", etc. and live by it. One who likes to condemn people will focus on Christanity's message of damnation for the "non believers", etc. People find reasons to justify behaviours, we simply make our belifs justify these ends.
Congrats on cleaning up your life, BTW. I'd surmise that the reason you are where you are today simply has to do with the fact that you wanted to do better for yourself, and Christanity (or your interpretation of it) happened to jive with your changed philosophy in life. You'd probably say the Christain message specifically "saved" you. I say if all the work has to be done by a person, then it is by their own accord that their actions were changed, and not because "God saved them". To get back to the main point, real Christanity seems to change from person to person, and I'm sure many in prison are quite sincere in their beliefs, but ultimately actions come down to reasons other than whether we believe in a diety or not.
U.S. atheists tend to be more educated and make more money than the general populace, so therefore the need to commit criminal acts isn't there).Thats is simply just a fallacious argument.
Can't see how. People who commit the most crimes tend to be poor and uneducated (or at least richer people tend not to go to jail). I've read in several sources (though I can't give you specific reference), that were pretty offical studies, that a higher percentage of U.S. atheists have college degrees, and their average income is well above the U.S. average (I believe 4th after Unitarians, agnostics and another group. There was a thread on this very forum a while back that linked these stats to some government study). Educated people with high incomes tend to commit less crimes, hence the lower numbers. People commit crimes mainly for economic reasons, and not reasons of piety.
You seem very intelligent CrownBoy, and I appreciate the dialogue. Why Bart Simpson? I love the Simpsons, but I think you would do better with an icon that more relfected who you are. Just a thought.
Why, thanks Penn. You also seem very intelligent, and your theistic arguments are definitely among the best in this forum. You don't get all "fire and brimstone" on me
.
I love the Simpsons! It's a show I've grown up on (I'm 20 years old), and though my TV taste have "refined" over time (imagine a guy my age who actually will watch C-SPAN ), this is one show I'll probably enjoy even at your age (j/k ). The icon is mainly a tribute to the show, I guess, but I could change it in the future.
