Yea, there are still ppl who believe in evolution. More I learn abut the evolution, more less I could believe it and more funny thing is that there are ppl who call themselv "reasonable" and still believe in Evolution!
The big argument is - Evolution Happens coz we found it in records of DNA and Fossils. And nobody actually can tell me how exacly you infer process from static data? Okey, if we would nevere seen similar data ever somehere, we would infere, that tehere is process X which produced this data, and the data are proof of that process. Question is how do one infer from the data nature of process, if we have another different process which can (and it can be demonstrated immidetly) produce the very same data - Intelligence.
Question is the NATURE of the process... We have data, and question is what is nature of the process producing such data. And Intelligence is the very first idea... coz Intelligence is the only known and empirically proovable process which can arrange matter in specific low-probnability states. What evolution has not prooved that THEIR process (RM+NS) actually CAN produce such patterns. All what they claim - See... we have data... that is proof that RM+NS produced it! Stop Stop Stop... no it is only data, you have to demonstrate that the process you refera can turn chatoci matter into specificied non-random states! If you can't produce empirical evidence of this shift of states, all you have is only assertion despite that we have allready in place the very process which CAN produce such patterns.
Evolutionists are eager to produce first artificial bacteria in laboratory, but everyone knows that it will be (hope so) designed from scratch using hi-tech and will be assembled and if successfully then it will be proof that even the very pattern you observe in fossils IS really repeatable using Intelligen Design.
Evolution is emptyhanded without actuall evidence of process happenning! And data arranged in specific format does not proof anything about evolution, you can't actually ignore that the pattern correlates with way how Intelligent Designer works... If you burry all the cars, you will find in "car fossils" the very same pattern - from simple steam cars to sophisticated ferrarries and F1 cars, trucks, tanks, trains etc. You will see the same pattern you see in fossils, only you will know that the pattern was produced by Intelligent Agent... So before even you claim that Biological Fossil pattern is produced by something else, you have to come with reasonable arguments why should one abandon obvious and empirically known process - Intelligent Design - before going to alternative processes!
Why Evolution haven't prooved abiogenesis, it is irrational claim of irrational beleif sistem - called Phylosophical Materialism! Which itself is not proovable scientifically!
Shazard
JoinedPosts by Shazard
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Shazard
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54
Finding Faith
by Ima Apostate inhow many of you ex-jw kids were able to believe in mainstream christianity after leaving the borg?
within the last year, i have opened up to getting to know god again.
what's funny is that when i prayed for truth and to know god, i knew and had a real feeling in my heart that i was getting closer to something real, but there was still a voice going, "hey, it's me jehovah, and you have rejected me!".
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Shazard
sweet pea :)
What I would like to ask you is how come there is absolutely NO historical evidence to support the existence of Jesus? (C)
Sorry, as I don't know you I may be very very wrong when I speak the words I spoken in case if you directly 1:1 map them on yourself. You know I don't know you I know it, so please forgive me in case if you thought all that was personal. Not at all... I was speaking in "class" level... like... breed... or some special kind of ppl I tag "materialists" meaning believers in doctrine of phylosophical doctrine.
Now to your question. This can turn into very very deep rabbithole coz I used to speak with ppl about matters when I get feeling I understand they patter of thinking. If I do not know what you mean when you say something I am not able to answer in your framework and you will not be able to understand me if I will use terms and words you understand differently then me!
What you asked, for example, does not make sense to me. Christianity itself is the very first proof of Historical Jesus Christ. Like Islam is first proof of Historical Existence of Muhammed, and meny other written texts in History are the first order evidence about existenc of Persons they are written about.
But I guess your question comes from matter I call - "Evidece is what I say is evidence". So I ask you, what exactly you mean by "historical evidence to supprot the existence of Person X" ANY Person X? For example, what is Historical Evidence of existenc of Napoleon for you? What you accept as historical evidence about any matter? Why? How it lines with Historical methodology? Does respectable historians agree with your assessment? Why do YOU think 2 billion ppl believe in existence of Jesus... That would be more ppl then ones believing in historical existence of Lincoln or George Washington! -
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Finding Faith
by Ima Apostate inhow many of you ex-jw kids were able to believe in mainstream christianity after leaving the borg?
within the last year, i have opened up to getting to know god again.
what's funny is that when i prayed for truth and to know god, i knew and had a real feeling in my heart that i was getting closer to something real, but there was still a voice going, "hey, it's me jehovah, and you have rejected me!".
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Shazard
Nice to see how ppl change their belief in God into belief into "science and reason" only again... they fall into believing something they do not investigate critically. Ppl say "science and reason" but really they represent plain dogmatic faith into evidentalism and branch of phylosophy called - phylosophical materialism. When one mixes and confuses methodological naturalism with phylosophical naturalism, they are trapped. And trapped into very deep hole not much different then JW. The same dogmatic basic belief which can't be challenged without fear of being expelled from "reasonalble society of scientific ppl" the same arrogance against anyone (particularry traditional Christianity) the same ego-centric reasoning!
When you aske one of this materialistic breed - why do they believe - answer boils down to two traditional answers - also they do not admit these are the answers, but when one things about it, it becomes pretty clear
1st answer - My Governing Body (British, American scientists) told so, I read it and saw it on Discovery
2nd answer - I have experienced so, and meny ppl have epxerimental experience so! And if I have subjective experience of something, then it is objective truth. But If I do NOT have subjective experience and even don't have idea how to obtain such experience, that is Rock-Hard proof that objectively the thing is impossible logically.
All this ofcoruse assumes that materialist is guru in logical reasoning and epistimological systems!
Have seen usual kitchen-level materialists and naturalists, you can eazely get them into the same state JW posses - name calling, ad-hominem, straw-man, well-poisinonig, genetic fallacies and all other stuff they try to through at you when you just destroy their own belief system and try to make them think critically about all daer doctrines of materialism they keep so dear and holy!
Most dangerous thing with materialists is to ask them something about their source of their morals... when they come with "majoritarism" argument you through them Nazi and Communism as good exapmple and they become angry... :)
I believe in Christ as most reasonable and most logical System I encountered in my life. -
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Atheism - The next and final logical step
by sam_sane_now init is with great pleasure that i have found this forum, being an ex jw myself.
after leaving when i was 17 i still held some belief in the notion of a "god," even though i didn't believe in jw teachings, then when i was about 21 and thought about it properly; i realised that evolution is the only real alternative to all religion.
when you get to this point its very liberating to see that its not just jw's that are clouding and brainwashing peoples minds, but all religion, whether organised or not.
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Shazard
keep digging... Next step is to learn some basic mathematics, physics, IT, logic, phylosophy and it is very liberating to find out that evolution is just-so stories to back phylosophical claims of atheism. Only, problem is, that ppl believe in math and IT only if it backs their beliefs, if they do not, they will not believe in IT and math. My experience shows that most of ppl who believe in evolution are just incapable of understanding the process to see it's impossibility. IT helps it, but for that you need to have this IT thinking pattern! I suggest all evolutionists to do some reading and learning about the matters, and do not stuck in "genetic algorithms" as they are not proof of evolution, coz evolutionary process is not what genetic algorithms describe, this is selection. Normal selection is describable by math, but evolution (new functional info there where it is not present) is not describable mathematically, and it is normal as it goes against meny prooved theorems of theoretical IT. If the process would be, we would have self-programming software allready in place. As we do not have such programms prooves one simple thing, there is no mathematical model for evolution, and by the example of Physics... Evolution without mathematical model is just-so story... some belive we will find this mathematical model, some believe in allready provoed theorems and knows that this is not the case! This is coz Evolution in general passes turings test, but turings test is test for Intelligence!
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The Belief Trap.
by Blueblades inmost of us are awash with beliefs of all sorts.
we are steeped in the common sense and prevailing wisdom of our culture, traditions, communities, profession, family, and friends.
belief is very personal for each of us.
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Shazard
If you thing about this all all you get is that Scientific Objectivity is consensus about subjective interpretation of some subjectively established experimental data! In genral... Scientific Objectivity is Subjective Opinion about how things work! It may be or may not be real truth!
Evidence is nothing more as interperted data in context of some pre-defined or pre-created cognitive process... Your subjective nature/mind is allways part of data you do intepretate!
And here comes nice blow... Naturalism defines, that our mind is machine of survival, not machine of truth. So all you can be sure about if you are naturalist, that your mind have produced propositions which allow you to survive, but they may not be true. Just like some ugauga-yamyam tribe could believe in Ctulhu who lives in electrical wires, and if you do not touch it, you will survive. They WILL survive, but their knowledge is not knowledge really!
So how does naturalist, who has defined that his mind is result of evolution tuned for survival, comes to real truth is not clear and ovious. To define that truth is practical, is make truth subordinate to opinion and vote and making it into social construct of what is practical! -
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Thank you, Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society!
by David_R ini wanted to say thank you to the wbts for enforcing a 'no-contact' rule on all those that have left the organization.. only by experiencing first-hand my former best-friends treating me like a complete stranger (see 'garbage') for standing up for my own beliefs was i finally able to tell the society 'good-bye' forever and not feel guilty about it.. i know this was not the wbts's intention from the alienation practice.
it's intention was to make me feel guilty and lonely enough to come back to them.
however, it has backfired on them and finally given me my freedom.. thank you, society, for lacking kindness and understanding.
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Shazard
Welcom back to freedom. And truth shall set ya free!
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The "God Particle" "Big BANG"
by TopHat inkey scientist sure "god particle" will be found soon
by robert evans mon apr 7, 12:27 pm et
geneva (reuters) - british physicist peter higgs said on monday it should soon be possible to prove the existence of a force which gives mass to the universe and makes life possible -- as he first argued 40 years ago.
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Shazard
It's called "God's particle" coz it gives mass to all the ordinary mass we observe when we observe mass. That's why it has such strange name... And Higgs bozon means that there is Higgs field (quantum physics stuff), so bottomline - that is field which "materialises" and makes observable all other particles, and the mass of the particle is proportional to it's interaction with this field. More funny is that higgs bozon itself has mass, it is like "chunk" of bozons clumping in one place thus making mass out of nothing!
Is it God himself... hardly! -
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WORDS are dangerous things!!
by Terry init is sometimes easy to be confused by the difference between:.
what we call things.
2.how many key words that make up my world view are really bad lables?.
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Shazard
I guess you did nice job of circular reasoning.
Interesting is that you start your topic with statements about tripping in dark about reality biting in your ass. And then you nicely goes that something what bites you can be tested by anyone and anywhere. So which one is it... are facts only those parts of reality which actually trip you, or facts and data could be some part of reality which you have never entered so you just dont have information not speaking about tripping!
You made mistke you were arguing against... You brought down reality to perception! Only now you put mind as the ultimate judge of data and facts. But still data and facts are mind concepts built upon your perception, upon huge amount of different encounters with ass-biting things, but still you can't be sure if this ass-biting thing is really ass-biting thing or you are stupid enough to sit on thorn all the time! -
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How would you answer this........
by fifi40 inthis morning i had a 40 min phone conversation with my ex husband because i spoke with my 15 year old son on wednesday about the inaccuracies of the jw belief system he has been raised with by his dad.
obviously ex husband is not happy about this.
the one thing he kept saying is that even if it is wrong it is not a bad way to live your life............what would you say to this?.
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Shazard
Answer simple... if any sistem is false and lies, then what makes it bad to live such life... as atheist, roman catholic, evangelical protestant, hinduist, budist? Then he is addmitting that what matters is not truth, but your personal opinion about "good" and "bad" life. And in this case he is not morally allowed to dictate for someone how to live their lives if he himself admits, that what matters is ones own opinion about the matter!
He is digging pitfall for himself just by allowing idea that JW are not so true!
Escape from this is to believe that JW are true and never was, is and will be wrong. This FACT should be carefully checked agaisnt history, facts and common sense, it can't be accepted without critical examination. But critical examination to estabilsh truth can be done by everyone themselve not by somebody else, as then you have to admit that this "somebody else" did not, is not and will not err in any matter, can he guarantee this or better check for thesmelves!
And here is the corner where JW just shut down... corner where they have to think for themselves, read for themselves, and face their own heart for themselves... nobody can believe and establish truth what to believe for themselves, that is the terrifying truth for JW - to think critically about their own paradigm. -
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Just got this email
by Cindi_67 ini received an email from my sister in law.
she was relating an experience given in a talk at an assembly.
a young couple wanted to have children, but they couldn't conceive, so they decided to adopt a child.
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Shazard
Just a thought. So if JW tell this story as to "proove" they are real God's PPL then does the same applies to Catholics, Lutherans, Muslims, Hindus?