At Hebrews 10: 26,27 the Bible warns those who would consider leaving Christianity: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a CERTAIN fearful looking for of judgement and a fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Is the Bible trustworthy in saying that those who leave Christianity are CERTAIN to experience a dread of judgement by God?
scout575
JoinedPosts by scout575
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Is this Bible warning a valid one?
by scout575 inat hebrews 10: 26,27 the bible warns those who would consider leaving christianity: "for if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgement and a fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
" is the bible trustworthy in saying that those who leave christianity are certain to experience a dread of judgement by god?
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Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?
by scout575 inin the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.
" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.
" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?
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scout575
Star Moore: Could it be that Mr. Baker is trying to 'spin' his way out of an unfulfilled Bible prophecy? There is nothing in the context of the above verses to suggest that his interpretation is correct. In verse 6 it says: "( God ) sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must SHORTLY be done." - Does that also mean 'SHORTLY' after the presence of Christ has begun? Would the first readers of Revelation have understood it in the way that Mr. Baker favours? Did they need to wait for him to 'put them right' as to the correct understanding?
There are other verses in the NT that show that early Christians believed that Jesus was 'coming quickly' ( in an 'unspun' understanding of those words ): 1Thess 4:17, Matt 10:23, 16:28.
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Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?
by scout575 inin the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.
" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.
" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?
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scout575
Carmel: Your Mr.Sears has an interesting interpretation of Rev 3:12. He applies the words: "He that overcometh" in the sense of Christians 'overcoming' their 'preconceived ideas, prejudices and former things.' Does anything in the context suggest that Mr. Sears' interpretation is sound? Verse 10 suggests that the 'overcoming' is in the sense of not succumbing to the 'hour of temptation.' Verse 11 suggests that the 'overcoming' is in the sense of resisting those who would 'take their crown.' No suggestion here that Mr.Sears' interpretation has any basis at all.
It could also be asked: Where did the early Christians get their 'preconceived ideas, prejudices and former things'? Was it not from the Bible and from letters that eventually became part of the Bible? If these 'former things' were wrong and needed to be replaced with the new understandings that Mr.Sears refers to, might not the 'new things' also turn out to be wrong and need to be replaced at some point?
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Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?
by scout575 inin the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.
" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.
" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?
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scout575
Hi Jaffacake. A good question to ask is: How would the Christians in the first century have understood Jesus' words? Would they have pondered on the so-called "historical sense" of Jesus words? Its a prophecy! Rev 22:12 says: "I come quickly ( not: "I HAVE come quickly ) and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." The early Christians would have understood Jesus words to mean that soon ( in their lifetime ) Jesus would return and reward them with eternal life and destroy their oppressors ( a prophecy that clearly failed to come true ).
This is the understanding that Paul had, as shown at 1Thess 4:17: "Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them and meet the Lord in the air." Paul believed that he would live to see the return of Christ and then be taken up to heaven to meet him. This is what the first readers of Revelation would have understood by the prophecy at Rev 22:12.
As 'Almighty God' would have known too well that thats how they would have understood Rev 22:12, why did he allow it to be put in those words? Why didn't he 'clarify' it to them along the lines of your last posting? Does it not strike you as slightly ironic that Paul and the other early Christians were so wrong, so literalistic and one dimensional in their understanding, and yet todays 'mainstream theologians' have the correct and "spiritual"... "Christian perspective"?
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Is this prophecy by Jesus trustworthy?
by scout575 inin the last chapter of the bible jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "i come quickly.
" the last of these three statements actually reads: "surely i come quickly.
" ( rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this bible prophecy is trustworthy?
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scout575
In the last chapter of the Bible Jesus is three times portrayed as saying: "I come QUICKLY." The last of these three statements actually reads: "SURELY I come quickly." ( Rev 22:7, 12, 20 ) Does the passage of nearly 2000 years since those words were written indicate that this Bible prophecy is trustworthy?
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How responsible is Jesus' advice at Matthew 19:12?
by scout575 inmatthew 19:12 says: " for their are some eunuchs which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and their are some eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom heaven's sake.
he that can make room for it, let him receive it.
" whilst these words of jesus have been taken figuratively by most christians, many, particularly in the past, have taken them all too literally and castrated themselves, thinking they were following jesus' advice.
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scout575
Peacebaby: Your advice to me to: "dig deeper, friend." seems to entirely miss the point of my question. I agree that Jesus' words are to be taken metaphorically. My point was that many Christians in the past ( including some of the Church fathers ) thought Jesus' words were to taken literally and so castrated themselves, genuinely believing that they were following Jesus' advice.
You joke about those who took this step, saying: "One less idiot in our gene pool - LOL!" I can't say that I'm an expert on the Chuch fathers, but were they really idiots? I suspect somehow that many Christians would consider that Jesus would take a slightly more generous view of the sincere ( but albeit misguided ) Christians who did castrate themselves for his sake.
If Jesus had spoken in more straightforward terms, then many of his ancient followers wouldn't have mutilated themselves, thinking they were doing their master's will. If Jesus had said something along the lines of: "Why not consider staying single for the sake of the good news" then none of his followers would have ever castrated themselves. What a shame that 'Almighty God' never foresaw that so many of his worshippers would take Jesus' words literally.
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How responsible is Jesus' advice at Matthew 19:12?
by scout575 inmatthew 19:12 says: " for their are some eunuchs which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and their are some eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom heaven's sake.
he that can make room for it, let him receive it.
" whilst these words of jesus have been taken figuratively by most christians, many, particularly in the past, have taken them all too literally and castrated themselves, thinking they were following jesus' advice.
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scout575
Matthew 19:12 says: " For their are some eunuchs which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and their are some eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom heaven's sake. He that can make room for it, let him receive it." Whilst these words of Jesus have been taken figuratively by most Christians, many, particularly in the past, have taken them all too literally and castrated themselves, thinking they were following Jesus' advice. Surely an all-knowing God would have foreseen this tragedy and not allowed the above wording of Jesus' advice to appear in the Bible.
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Is Jesus over-rated?
by scout575 inwhilst the bible generally portrays jesus as a good and clever man, is this the whole story?
how does jesus respond to those who meet with his disapproval?
to peter he says: "get thee behind me, satan: thou art an offence unto me.
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scout575
Thanks again Jaffacake. Your comments remind me of the saying; "We don't see things the way they are, we see them the way WE are." In other words, we tend to see things according to our own pre-suppositions and not how they actually are. In an earlier posting you talk about the 'accurate face of God' and how this face is to be seen in the statement 'God is love' rather than in the face of God presented at 1 Sam 12:15.
Are you seeing the face of God that suits your own pre-suppositions rather than the face of God that the Bible actually presents as a whole? As you well know, the text that says: "God is love." is 1John 4:18. The accurate face of God? "Yes", you say. And yet, what does the apostle John say at 2 John 10,11? He says: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." Is this command to shun fellow believers who disagree with you, also a reflection of the 'accurate face of God'? I suspect that you would say: "No!" Is the 1 John 4:18 statement a statement from God that included no interpretation by John, and the 2 John 10, 11 statement a statement that does include interpretation by John?
Who decides which texts reflect the 'true face of God' and which include some interpretation by the Bible writers, and therefore don't reflect 'the true face of God'? Is it the 'mainstream theologians' that you mention, who decide on these matters? Is it personal choice? This may not be too much of a problem when it comes to texts that are obviously 'nice' or obviously 'not nice' but what about the texts that contain a mixture of 'nice' bits and 'not nice' bits? What then?
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Is Jesus over-rated?
by scout575 inwhilst the bible generally portrays jesus as a good and clever man, is this the whole story?
how does jesus respond to those who meet with his disapproval?
to peter he says: "get thee behind me, satan: thou art an offence unto me.
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scout575
Thanks Narkissos. The point that you mention regarding Jesus' cursing of the fig tree ( Mark 11:12-14 ) was never a problem for me because of ( are you reading this, Jaffacake? ) the WTS' very non-literalistic, non-one dimensional interpretation of it. They say that Jesus' cursing of the fig tree, wasn't an act of petulance, but was rather an object lesson for how God would deal with the Israelite nation: Jesus came to the nation of Israel looking for SPIRITUAL fruit and found none. Because of this dearth of Spiritual fruit, the nation would be cursed by God ( just as Jesus had cursed the fig-tree ). The text used to support this interpretation is Matthew 21:44, where Jesus says to the Jews: "The kingdom of God will be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the FRUITS thereof."
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Is Jesus over-rated?
by scout575 inwhilst the bible generally portrays jesus as a good and clever man, is this the whole story?
how does jesus respond to those who meet with his disapproval?
to peter he says: "get thee behind me, satan: thou art an offence unto me.
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scout575
Hi Narkissos,
OMG ( sorry about that, God ), you've blown my cover! ( I forgive you ). The questions that I'm raising are those that came to mind over years of Bible reading, and that gradually eroded my faith in the Bible. I haven't thrown out the baby with the bath water, mind. There's clearly some nice stuff in the Bible, but alot of stuff thats less than inspiring, to say the least. I'm asking the questions that I wish someone had raised with me many years ago. I strongly suspect that had that happened I would have stopped viewing the Bible as inspired of God, and left Christianity much earlier than I did. I know my questions are directed at a very 'niche' market, but I still think that its worthwhile posting them. Maybe there are some people 'out there' who will read them and one day be grateful for them. I know that I would have been VERY grateful for them, but thats just me.