Posts by DakotaRed

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

DakotaRed

DK "All things FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus.
The scriptures say the same about God..all things were made for him AND THROUGH ( I'll find it if you need it.)

RSV Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.

Here I see Trinitarians trying to play games with scriptures. Yet, no one pays the least bit of attention to the words of Jesus himself. Jesus is the image of God, not God. Man is also created in the image of God, yet is not God.

As for Headship....the head of the woman is man, head of man is christ, head of Christ is God.
Nothing here speaks of one being Greater in value,power,knowledge.

How can God, the Supreme Power of the universe, have a head over him and there still be only one true God? Does Jesus’ own words rattle trinitarians that much? Did not Jesus himself state that the Father was greater than he?

This headship thing is POSITIONALLY.
The bible say's..."he, being in the FORM of God....humbled himself and took the form of man.
So positionally, Jesus as man, didn't know the day or hour, said the father is greater than he was, not MY will but YOUR will be done.
These quotes by him makes him no LESS in value than the Father.

Sorry, but being “in the form of” simply expresses that he was also a spirit before becoming a man. Nothing in the Bible ever states that it is only “positionally,” that came from man in his feeble attempts to justify the trinity.

Jesus’ own words always directed all to the Father, claimed the Father was greater, did as the Father taught him.

RSV John 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work.

RSV John 5:36-37
36 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.
37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;

I think your arguments are good and we could go on and on.
I think to make this easier....let's see if we can prove Jesus had a begginning,... was created.
The scripture you used about him being "the begginning og God's creation can also be translated..."the origin" of creation.
This would make more sense with John 1:3 and colossians 1:15-18

This is the crux of the Trinitarian non-trinitarian argument. Currently, nothing can be absolutely proven by the Bible. We all have to research things and arrive at our own conclusions. Personally, I tend to take things a bit more literal than many and have never accepted that Jesus is or can be God Almighty. The majority disagree. But, in all fairness, the majority don’t really research anything any more than the average JW does.

As for saying the word, arche, used at revelations 3:14 can also be translated as “the origin,” that is another translation trick to try to place the trinity in the scriptures. To claim that Jesus actually had a beginning is to totally disprove the trinity, right? Yet, at Rev. 3:14, we see exactly that. Translators then claim it must also mean the origin, yet not one other place in scriptures does the Greek word arche get translated as “the origin.”

If I am wrong.....I will change my beliefs on this!
I have no fear to say I'm wrong. Why believe a lie?

I can only recommend what you are doing. Research and discuss. But, seek out Jesus’ own words over those of mankind. He seemed pretty clear to me as to just who he is.

This, who is Jesus thing, was one of the biggest stuggles I had, when the relearning experience thing took place, upon leaving the witnesess.
The depressing part is this; This debate has went on for centuries, with both parties seeing it their way of seeing it.
The argument goes on and some get nowhere.
Jesus asked a good question when he said "who do YOU say I am?

Yes, I agree. It is an endless debate, but one I see as one of the few debates that actually could affect salvation. I was lucky, I didn’t have to relearn about the trinity when I got involved with the JWs as I have never believed it in my whole life. Everytime I have got into a real deep discussion about the trinity with a Trinitarian, it ultimately reverts back to something along the lines of it is just as mystery and has to be accepted. I disagree. 1 Thess 5:21 tells us to test everything and hold fast to what is good. How do you test an incomprehensible mystery?

Also;
RSV John 18:20 Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I have said nothing secretly.

Jesus spoke openly and said nothing in secret. How could he have kept the secret of is being God from the disciples or the entire world? How could he have inadvertently taught he was God, but kept it such a mystery that has been debated for close to two thousand years? And finally, why was the decision as to whether or not the Church taught he was God left in the hands of a Roman Convert Politician, Constantine? Was his decision based on scripture and prayer, or a desire to hold his empire together?

I wish you good luck in your search. I searched for years to see if there was truth to the trinity and didn't find it. But then again, I never believed in it anyway.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

DakotaRed

In the explanation of the TRINITY (if you wish to call it that)
Jesus is the one who exemplifies God. He is usually spoken of in terms of willingness to Honor God.

By sheer definition of what you say, he cannot be God, honor God, exemplify God, and there still be only one God, as the Bible says there is.

RSV 1 Corinthians 8:4-6
4. Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5. For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6.yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Trinitarians try to use the above to claim Jesus as God because he is called Lord. Yet, the scripture clearly shows a difference between God and Lord. Only translators who support the trinity choose to capitalize Lord. There was no capitalization in the original writing.
All things FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus. Just as he said.

RSV Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord;

Only one, not three or three to compile one.

He is the WORD of God. I see nowhere he is LESS, if he gives something to God, or asks Gods will to be done and NOT HIS.

Being the Word of God does not make one God. John 1:1 says he is the Word, yet he was with God and is God! No language allows one to be ones self. Many translations use words such as “divine,” and “godlike.” As you know, the New World Translation uses the literal translation of “a god,” but that just causes confusion.
He cannot be equal to God, yet be facing subjection to God, can he? He did come to do his will, but the will of the one who sent him. No one knows the time of the end, not even the Son, but only the Father.

RSV John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

As I said earlier, I take Jesus at his word.

RSV 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

He and the father are one. They are always together in scripture (NT).

Where do you get they are always together? Yes, they are one in the sense that they are in total agreement. But, if you think being one makes Jesus God, then you have given yourself a problem;

RSV John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

RSV John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

RSV John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

RSV 1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

RSV Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Being one simply means in agreement. Here, we are one united against the Watchtower and their unscriptural practices. But, that does not make us God any more than Jesus being one with the Father and the disciples being one with Jesus makes them God.

It is much EASIER to believe Jesus is NOT God, however too many scriptures do not rhyme were this to be so.

You are free to believe as you wish. But, you have failed to even address Jesus’ words at John 17:3. If he is God, as you contend, how does he call another, “THE ONLY TRUE GOD?”

Most ALL of God's titles are also given of Christ.

Most All? Are you aware that many of these titles are also given to men and satan? Yet, nowhere is Jesus referred to as the Almighty.

Is a son LESS than his father? Why?

A son cannot give life to the Father, can he? While that does not make him less a man, it does show that the Son cannot do everything the father does. He can only give life to his own son.

Only if he were created would he be LESS.

Obviously we disagree here. I believe he was created, you don’t.

RSV Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

Nowhere are we instructed in the Bible to accept Jesus as God, but as the Son of God;

RSV 1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Why not just take Jesus at his word and leave the scholars behind? If Jesus calls another the ONLY TRUE GOD and says that the Father is greater than he, I will take him at his word.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

DakotaRed

Hi Gumby. I see Jesus as having all authority in heaven and earth right now. But, as he says in scripture, it was all given to him. If he were God or equal to God, would he really need it given to him? To be given, the giver should be in a somewhat superior position, as I see it.

RSV John 5:26. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
27. and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.

RSV Matthew 28: 18. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

RSV Matthew 11:27. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

RSV Philippians 2: 9. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,

Yes, I see jesus handing all things back to God, after all enemies have been defeated, the last being death. For lack of a better explanation, I see God placed all authority in Jesus, as an owner of a business would place it in his son. A manager has claimed that the company has done well only because of the owner and that without him, it would falter. The owner knows this to be a ludicrous claim and to prove it, hands it all over to the son he trusts, knowing the business is set up to stand on it's own. Of course, the corrupt manager tries to bring the bsiness down, but the son is there managing for the owner and using the practices set up by the owner. All employees see that the business blossoms and does equally as well under the son, regardless of the things the corrupt manager tries to do to bankrupt the business. After it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt, that the owner has set up the business to run properly and does indeed have the right to run and own the business, the corrupt manager goes away and the son returns the business to the owner. All faithful employees that stood by the son now have a lifelong job with the owner, as he now runs his business the way he wishes.

Sorry if it sounds a bit JWish, but even though most cannot really explain why there is no trinity, I agree with them that there isn't. The owner still owns the company, but has placed full managership in his trusted son until such time as it is proven that his business practices are correct and proper. At least, that's the way I see it.

Of course, if one no longer believes in God, it's all moot anyway.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

DakotaRed

Gumby, a book I can recommend to you is "The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound," By Anthony Buzzard. They also have a web site at Restoration Fellowship.

The book delves with most all of the dual scriptures, the ones that can be interpreted two ways and most always are interpreted to support the trinity. Since I have never believed in the trinity, even before getting involved with the JWs, I found the book very refreshing. Anthony Buzzard was never a JW, either.

However, there are a couple scriptures I find in all Bibles that dispell the trinity, completely, to me and are not subject to interpretation.

RSV 1 Corinthians 15:24-27
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him.
28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

RSV John 17:3.
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

If Jesus declares the Father, God, to be "The Only True God," I will not argue. I'll take his word over any scholar or translator. So far, I have not found a copy of the Bible that doesn't state the above. All other so called "trinity proof" scriptures can be translated in various ways and I find ones as John 8:58 almost laughable. The context is not whether or not Jesus is God but whether or not Jesus existed before Abraham.

However, even though JWs don't accept the trinity either, I do find the average rank and file JW woefully ill-prepared to explain why there is no trinity. The Watchtower has done a poor job educating them as to why.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

57

Where did you meet the love of your life?

by Beck_Melbourne in

jw
friends

in yahoo chat?

icq or msn?.

while shopping?

DakotaRed

It is very true, RF. Even after they have left, I received a letter from CPS accusing me of emotional abuse because I listen to music that the 15 year old doesn't like. Of course, she claims that my taste in music makes her want to kill herself. What a hoot. I listen to anything from Big Band of the thirties to contemporary rock of the mid eighties. She prefers rap, something I can't stand. Of course, I guess it never dawned on anyone that if she doesn't like the music I do, she could leave the room.

It's all very real. I truly thought I had found the love of my life when I remarried this time. I trusted that the JWs would support the marriage and the parents. Once again, so much for taking marriage vows serious. I believe some of the nonsense is coming from the dubs as well. Since I am DA'd, and have told their dub friends to saty away if they cannot be cordial to me, that must be grounds for leaving ones mate, according to her Kingdom Hall.

When I read accounts like yours and how you adore your love, I envy you. Who knows, maybe one day I will find one as that. But, until then, I'll just live my life and enjoy my grandchildren. Currently, they are the love of my life.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

57

Where did you meet the love of your life?

by Beck_Melbourne in

jw
friends

in yahoo chat?

icq or msn?.

while shopping?

DakotaRed

The love of my life? Here I am separated and divorcing wife number 3, so it appears I have yet to meet the love of my life.

But, I met my first wife while I was in Vietnam. Her girlfriend was engaged to a buddy of mine and got us writing each other. When I returned home, after a brief whirlwind engagement, we were married. 12 years later, we divorced due to my narrowmindedness. I actually thought a spouse should sleep with only their spouse. However, I did receive two very wonderful daughters from that marriage.

Wife number 2 I met while managing an Auto Center for KMart down in Florida. Boy, did I ever go wrong there. Not only was she a sleep around too, but unable to sever the umbilical cord to Mommie. That one was very short lived.

Number three I met at the Kingdom Hall eight years ago. With all the bitching I do about it, she is basically a very sweet person who is totally brainwashed by the dubs. That, and she does nothing to control her kids, now 15, 16 and 17. Although she is basically a sweet person, she also has used me as what I can only describe as a set-up with her kids. When we married, she asked me to discipline them as she was unable. I later found out that when I did, as soon as I left, she would coddle them and tell them how mean I was to discipline them. Then, she would later come and tell me how upset she was that the kids treated her like crap. I see it as playing both ends against the middle. Of course, the dubs did nothing to help or support the family and contributed to ripping the marriage apart.

So, like I first said, I guess I am once again looking for the love of my life.

Applications being accepted.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

57

ANOINTED Jehovah Witness has no doubt,

by lotus in

jw
friends

hello, i am new to this website, but have to be straightforward and say that i do not agree with most subjects and contents.

i am an active jehovah witness, but i am very lonely so i am looking for others with the "hope" or to speak to those that know someone that does.

it has been a long , hard road for me.

DakotaRed

and show you what the next generation of Witnesses can be.

Is this more "NEW LIGHT?" With the end so near, how can there even be a "Next Generation?"

Yes, Lotus, many here are hurting. Why? Each has their own story and all are Watchtower related. I became a JW because I sincerely believed them to be different and a loving people. I found out different. Their love is totally conditional, if you receive it at all. Every congregation I went to had it's little cliques and they let no one else in. Elders set out to create a reason to hold JCs and DF people, always claiming to purify the congregation. Yet, if the truth be known, these same elders are guilty of more wrongdoing than most.

When blatant violations of even the elkders manual occur and the sanctity of ones home, it does no good to inform the society. The only action they take, if any at all, is to ask the offensive elder his view and close the book. Then, send out a shine on letter encouraging one to just pray to jehovah and get out in service and attend meetings. Never mind the unchristian conduct of an elder in your home is what is keeping you from doing it.

As stated before, I do not totally disagree with the JW theology, but Jesus said the sign of his true disciple was the love they had, not their theology. With little or no love from the JWs, they cannot be the true disciples of Christ.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

17

ROBERT BLAKE ARRESTED!

by Dutchie in

jw
friends

i'm watching cnn and the actor robert blake, best known for his role in the tv series baretta, has just been arrested for the murder of his wife.

they are charging him with the deliberate first degree murder of his wife.

another oj?.

DakotaRed

It's really sad when these celebrity's get caught up in things as this. I have no idea if he did it, but from what I have read, it doesn't look good for him. Of course, with enough money and the right ambulance chaser, errrr, attorney, he just may get off. From down there, you never can tell anymore.

So far, the worst evidence I read was listed on CNN. The police found the gun a few blocks away, a Berretta, with one bullet still in it and two fired. At Blakes home, they found a box of identical ammunition, with three missing from the box. Other evidence, they aren't mentioning just yet.

I wonder if Johnny Cochran will come forward with a cutsie little poem to recite to the jury again?

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

10

Important Things in Life: Rocks, Pebbles, Sand.

by BeautifulGarbage in

jw
friends

someone sent this to me and i though i would share it with the db.. a philosophy professor stood before his class and had some items in front of him.

when class began, wordlessly he picked up a large empty.

mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with rocks right to the top, rocks about 2" in diameter.

DakotaRed

In the copy I received of that, long ago, it ended with another student coming forward and pouring a can of beer into the jar. Of course, the beer filled all the leftover spaces.

With that, it just proves there's always room for beer.

Sorry, Andee, don't want to spoil your excellent thought, but I couldn't resist.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

18

Being dis-fellowshipped or dis-associated

by Smitty in

jw
friends

for those that are dis-fellowshipped or dis-associated: do you speak to jw's even though they know you're disfellowshipped or dis-associated?

DakotaRed

I don't go out of my way to speak to any, but if I run into some, I might say hi. So far, no returns.

However, when the dub wife was still here and some came into the house, I let it be known that if they could not greet me or be cordial to me inside my own home, they were not welcome to stop by. Since I took that stance, the dub wife took her brats and left. No more worry about any of their "friends" stopping by now. So, I greet and discuss anything I wish with the poodle and the two cats. They were never baptized, so they don't shun me.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?