Posts by CalebInFloroda

63

How dishonest was the Apostle Paul?

by opusdei1972 in

may be some of you will be shocked by this question.

however, when i was studying the bible with critical eyes i detected that paul ( or saul of tarsus) misquoted the hebrew bible in order to get false support for his arguments.

of course, this tricky kind of use of the "scriptures" was not only used by him, but others, like the author of the gospel of matthew got unsupported doctrines misquoting verses.

CalebInFloroda

I see a problem developing in this thread, and the Watchtower is to blame.

I’ve noticed that many ex-JWs exit the JW religion with much of their Watchtower theology still intact, though they may not notice it. I know I left this way. If not it is expelled, the ex-JW will make mistakes in further judgment made outside the Watchtower on Scripture and religion.

One of these carryovers from Watchtower naiveté is that the New Testament authors are “quoting” from either the LXX or a Hebrew text. But the truth is they often are not. What you are reading when Paul and others “quote” from the Hebrew Scriptures is midrash, not a real quote.

Midrash is a Jewish technique in which exegesis is actually interpolated into Scripture as you say it, thus making up for any ambiguity in a text that might be viewed as problematic to the teacher. Normally this is an acceptable technique, but the New Testament writers used it to emphasize that there was a hidden, encoded message that only the light of Christ could decode.

Matthew’s use of Isaiah 7.14 is a prime example of how the NT writers used midrash. The text reads in Hebrew similar to the translation as found in the NJPS:

Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel.

The word for “young woman” refers to a type of female. In older forms of English the term would have been “maid” or even “maiden,” but it has fallen out of popular use. While the LXX uses a term that on the surface reads “virgin,” the Greek word does refer to someone sexual status but again to a type of female, most notably a “maiden.”

Since midrash often is a play-on-words form of exegesis, the author of the gospel of Matthew played with the Greek word to give it both meanings, namely “virgin/maiden” and “virgin/sexually inexperienced” at Matthew 1.28. The author was neither quoting from the Hebrew text or even the LXX necessarily, but was merely using the same words to fit the prophecy into a fulfillment of the events mentioned. The author does this several times, never really quoting but reshaping texts, such as at Matthew 2.23.

The theology of the Watchtower is very primitive and two-dimensional. It views the Scriptures as a sort of book of proof-texts to be used as proof-texts. The actual documents are actually far more complex. But the Governing Body insists on NOT teaching JWs the actual process of transmission, that a very Semitic philology and set of Jewish hermeneutics governed their construction.

We who leave the JWs behind are not taught the necessary fundamentals of Bible study to begin with so we find ourselves arguing based on the only limitations we know. Our conclusions can therefore fail us. How many on this board can identify when a “quote” is really a quotation from Scripture and not midrash or perhaps when a verse merely being stated from memory? What is the difference between midrash and Midrash? Who even heard of the term before today?

I was so unprepared when I went into formal Scriptural study. I learned nothing from my exposure to the Watchtower brand of religion (though I thought I did). I swear it probably sucked up a few IQ points even! Thus I am not criticizing anyone for the mistakes that are being made. You are working from the limited point that some of you probably still have due to the same happening to you. It took me almost 20 years outside of the Watchtower devoted to in-depth collegiate study to get where I am today. The more I learned, the more I realized how little I knew.

Paul is not always quoting from any text in his writing. His quotes are often midrash in nature. They aren’t always to be found in the LXX or the Masoretic or even proto-Masoretic texts. It is not a sign of error on the author’s part either. While I don’t agree with a lot of Paul’s teachings or the New Testament in general, I can attest that the author we generally know as Paul was not an idiot. He may have twisted things beyond their original purpose, but he does demonstrate a logic that is definitely Pharisaic in nature. From a Jewish viewpoint I can attest that the writings do demonstrate a familiarity with rabbinical exegesis of the Second Temple era.

63

How dishonest was the Apostle Paul?

by opusdei1972 in

may be some of you will be shocked by this question.

however, when i was studying the bible with critical eyes i detected that paul ( or saul of tarsus) misquoted the hebrew bible in order to get false support for his arguments.

of course, this tricky kind of use of the "scriptures" was not only used by him, but others, like the author of the gospel of matthew got unsupported doctrines misquoting verses.

CalebInFloroda

@jws

I would have to agree with you, but only sometimes because (as you allude to) not all the Pauline epistles seem to be written by the same person. While that might be a reason for the very conflicting things in them, the explanation is by no means a panacea. Sometimes I am more prone to be confused by the real Paul than with the possible pseudonymous works attributed to the apostle.

Case in point: The quote that opusdei1972 makes is a striking example. Galatians was written prior to Romans, and in Galatians Paul seems very negative about the Torah, practically insisting that it was not of divine origin (Galatians 3.19-20) and that the Jewish people are not the true see of Abraham ( Galatians 3.16). Just a couple of years later in Romans, Paul's words soften considerably, even to the point of saying that "the gifts and the call of God [to the Jews] are irrevocable.'--Romans 11.29.

While I am not sure if you are describing the Jewish Scriptures or the New Testament, if you are talking about what Paul was quoting from in the NT, the quotes are from the Alexandrian Septuagint. He even makes reference to the Book of Wisdom as found in this version of the LXX, most vividly in Romans 1.

63

How dishonest was the Apostle Paul?

by opusdei1972 in

may be some of you will be shocked by this question.

however, when i was studying the bible with critical eyes i detected that paul ( or saul of tarsus) misquoted the hebrew bible in order to get false support for his arguments.

of course, this tricky kind of use of the "scriptures" was not only used by him, but others, like the author of the gospel of matthew got unsupported doctrines misquoting verses.

CalebInFloroda

Sparky,

One should not confuse the Watchtower definition of what Paul is saying with what one finds in the actual text. If you read it like the Witnesses do, of course it sounds idiotic. But it is not because Paul wrote it with the JW understanding. To illustrate...

"Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him…"--1 Corinthians 11.14, NRSV.

The word for “nature” here in the Koine Greek text is PHUSIS. It means in this instance “social order,” as in the Roman social order or way of doing things. It does not mean “nature” as in the sense of a National Geographic television documentary about flora and fauna.

In first century Hellenism and Roman culture, the “natural order” of things had no division between what one witnesses in nature (i.e., plant life, animal life, etc.) and the societal norms, social conventions, and culture of human society. The customs adopted and promoted by humans were believed to be as “natural” as what happened in nature itself. They are one in the same thing in the first century mind.

Therefore to act outside of societal norms was to act “unnaturally.” It is not a scientific term, but one that expresses the ancient Roman understanding of how the world worked.

Paul was not telling the Corinthians that it went against biological norms for men to wear long hair, but that it went against Roman convention. A clue that helps one come to this conclusion even without this knowledge of ancient understanding is that Paul comes from a society where men did let their hair grow long, namely in Jewry. Paul himself even pays for the haircuts of Nazarites at the Second Temple at Acts 21.23, 24, 26.

Obviously he wouldn’t be saying that it was biologically unnatural for men to grow their hair long as he has witnessed it himself as part of an offering of oneself to G-d as a Nazarite. Since Jews would never offer something biologically unnatural to G-d (and Nazarites grow out their hair during their vowed period), Paul would not have been condemning the biological growing of hair in men. No, here he is speaking about convention.

34

Babylon the Great and the Anti Christ

by Perry in

similar views as those presented here are gaining in popularity in christian circles.

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgmrfatdvtm.

CalebInFloroda

@IslandMan

The view you are expressing is called the "preterist" view. It teaches that the apocalyptic language is describing the struggles of early Christianity with Judaism. While not as popular as the "futurist" view, it does have a logic to it that I think gets overlooked far too much.

63

How dishonest was the Apostle Paul?

by opusdei1972 in

may be some of you will be shocked by this question.

however, when i was studying the bible with critical eyes i detected that paul ( or saul of tarsus) misquoted the hebrew bible in order to get false support for his arguments.

of course, this tricky kind of use of the "scriptures" was not only used by him, but others, like the author of the gospel of matthew got unsupported doctrines misquoting verses.

CalebInFloroda

There is an interesting new line of theology that has developed from the Jewish-Catholic dialogues about this, and you can find some of this in the volume "The Jewish Annotated New Testament." It suggests that some of the charges of misuse of Scripture by Paul might actually be misunderstandings due to now-abandoned Catholic teachings regarding Jews and a greatly unknown argument between the Reformers and Catholics that colored the words of Paul for the last 500 years.

While there is no excusing some of Paul's language against Judaism, Paul does not seem to be ever teaching that Jews are to stop being obedient to the Mosaic Law. The most striking textual NT evidence to support this is found in Acts 21.17-26. These verses demonstrate that early Church authority did not interpret Paul's teachings as applicable to Jews, and that Paul was essentially still Torah-observant himself.

Using this one text to re-read epistles like Romans, for example, creates a particularly different text, one that never promotes anything particularly anti-Semitic. But when you add the fact that the Catholic Church views its past teachings about Jews as incorrect, and that these were colored by the arguments of the Reformation, you actually get a letter which explains how early Christianity may have looked appealing to some Jews in the first century...and how Judaism was not viewed as badly by Paul as some might have thought.

The teaching that the Catholic Church has now abandoned and that was warped during the Reformation was that Jews obeyed the Mosaic Law as a means to merit salvation. A superficial reading of Romans mixed with superstitions lead to the misunderstanding that in Romans, Paul was teaching that there were two roads to choose from: one of grace that leads to eternal life and one of works based on the Mosaic Law that has now been abrogated in Christ. The teaching became polemic fuel when later Reformists began accusing Catholics of being like Pharisees and promoting a religion that was works based.

After the Holocaust and particularly with Vatican II the Catholic Church opened formal dialogue with Judaism. One of the things the Catholic Church learned was that Jews have never had a doctrine which promotes a need for individual salvation. Judaism in fact has no "Original Sin" teaching. In light of this, it has been deduced that Paul could not be teaching that the Jews saw obedience to the Mosaic Law as a means of salvation.

Currently scholars are coming to agreement that Paul was likely teaching against Gentiles promoting the Mosaic Law as a requisite to salvation in Christ. The reason? Jews view the Mosaic Law as the opposite of slavery to the Egyptians, as an expression of freedom. Only if and when Gentiles apply it to themselves does it becomes a burden, not to mention violates the Law itself. Mosaic Law teaches that people are put right with G-d by means of faith. (Romans 4.3) Therefore, according to this revised understanding, Paul is actually teaching that anyone who makes Torah obedience a requisite for salvation for anyone violates the Law.

This latest revision to Christian theology tends to make Romans chapter 11 & 14 make more sense. The other previous exegetical approach has often made these chapters appear out of place by comparison. This recent change seems to make for more of a logical reading.

Again this does not change other expressions of Paul in other texts, and this new line of thought has yet to be adapted as official dogma in the Catholic Church, but it does offer a logical new approach that makes sense with Acts 21.

It should also be noted that this exegetical approach would create a paradox for the Watchtower which teaches that the 144,000 replaces the nation of Israel. This new exegetical approach causes Romans to read as if the covenants are still in effect and the Israel will never be replaced, instead only added to.--Romans 9.4-5; 11.29.

45

People should learn more about the Bible flaws

by opusdei1972 in

i have noted that the main problem for those who are seduced by the watchtower society is their ignorance about the bible itself.

people who believe that the bible is the word of god usually ignore the studies on textual criticism and how scientific criteria forbid absurd stories like that of the global flood.

so, i strongly believe that students in schools need at least an obligatory course on "the bible" through the point of view of science and the textual criticism.

CalebInFloroda

Opusdei has a point. It is very peculiar that witnesses to a resurrection like that of Lazarus' would turn on Jesus a week later.

It is also peculiar that the Jesus of the New Testament doesn't resemble much at all the Messiah as hoped for by the Jewish community and the way it both interpreted the Scriptures pertaining to the Messianic age and to the idea behind the whole reason for the messianic concept.

The blessings of the Messianic Age are expected to be free to all persons and discernible to everyone, Jew and Gentile. The idea behind the messianic concept is to heal all that is wrong with the world, not give the world a test to see who in the world will believe that so-and-so is the Messiah and to punish and deny the blessings of the messianic age from those people. The whole idea behind the messianic concept is to bless the entire world, especially those who believe there is no reason for hope, but Jesus of the NT constantly teaches the opposite, that those who don't accept him as the Messiah don't get any blessings. What kind of redemption is it to punish those without hope and faith?The Messianic Age is supposed to bring hope to the hopeless and restore faith to the faithless. The NT idea of a Messiah is truly erroneous because it teaches the opposite!

The promise to Abraham and Sarah was that through their offspring the entire world of humanity would receive blessings upon themselves. The idea that a man from Nazareth who, by the way, tells people not to spread the news that he is the Messiah and is rather indirect about his being the Messiah when put under oath before the Sanhedrin, turns out to be this person who fulfills the hopes of the Jewish people for the world is hard to reconcile. Since the messianic concept is a Jewish one, why does the New Testament reject the Jewish notion that Jesus doesn't fit the bill? Revelation in Judaism is public and truths are agreed upon by consensus of all, not by a hierarchy or small group of apostles. If Judaism as a whole says " no, this man is not the Messiah," and even Gentiles can see that no Mesianic age is upon the world, then why is it not possible that the greatest error of the New Testament is the identity of the Christ?

True, many Christians will argue this, but aren't most of them Gentiles? Who are Gentiles to tell Jews who the Messiah is or not? The whole concept is Jewish, the hopes originate with our culture. Even if you are not Jewish, why is the logic of many open minded people rejected when they see no reason to hope in such a man.

If the teaching of the Messianic Age is a true one, no atheist, agnostic, or person of any other creed will be left out in the darkness promised by Jesus to those who reject him. On the contrary, no one will have to check with the Jew whether or not that age has come for it will be apparent to all. You don't need a New Testament to tell you when peace has finally come to our world, when redemption from suffering is here, when all hopes are satisfied. That isn't something that comes in secret or is invisible but present since 1914 or takes a special Bible formula to encode by certain "chosen" ones.

While recognizing much good the idea of Jesus can be in highlighting some of the ideals of Torah regarding love for neighbor and respect for the world we live in, I think one of the greater errors of the New Testament is to teach that the Jews got their own ideas about the Messianic Age and it's free blessings for all humankind wrong. Even if the original Jewish concept itself is not a true hope to begin with, it is still the greatest error to twist such a mythology into something it isn't and never was.

45

People should learn more about the Bible flaws

by opusdei1972 in

i have noted that the main problem for those who are seduced by the watchtower society is their ignorance about the bible itself.

people who believe that the bible is the word of god usually ignore the studies on textual criticism and how scientific criteria forbid absurd stories like that of the global flood.

so, i strongly believe that students in schools need at least an obligatory course on "the bible" through the point of view of science and the textual criticism.

CalebInFloroda

More of Caleb's

RESPONSES FROM READING THE INSPIRED WORKS OF THE GREAT LORENZO

Caleb. I know you're trying.

"Trying" what? I'm not trying anything, not after they introduced Coke Zero!

But you have to understand, too, where I'm coming from.

Do I really? Can't I just wing it or "call it in"?

I'm afraid. But I'm happy! I am sooo happy!

Which is it?

45

People should learn more about the Bible flaws

by opusdei1972 in

i have noted that the main problem for those who are seduced by the watchtower society is their ignorance about the bible itself.

people who believe that the bible is the word of god usually ignore the studies on textual criticism and how scientific criteria forbid absurd stories like that of the global flood.

so, i strongly believe that students in schools need at least an obligatory course on "the bible" through the point of view of science and the textual criticism.

CalebInFloroda

CALEB'S REACTIONS TO THE POSTS OF LORENZOSMITHXVII

(Please enjoy with your favorite snack and beverage.)

So, if you're into chronology, like I am and the Witnesses, this tends to be very impressive to us and your view of the Scriptures becomes very impotent and irrelevant. We're beyond help here because we have demonstrated fulfillment of prophecy and chronology. As they say, "the proof is in the pudding."

You can also make tortillas out of Jell-O® Chocolate pudding mix, but that doesn’t mean you are using the mix for what it is was intended. It only means you got some pretty messed-up tortillas.

So I just wanted to share with you that I understand your position and respect your personal beliefs about the Bible, but some of us are having an entirely different and very positive experience with scripture when we focus on prophecy and chronology.

Having a "very different and positive experience" is also not evidence of using the Bible the way it was intended by its original authors. To illustrate: Having a very different and positive experience with a great white shark doesn't mean it won’t eat you.

I understand why anyone Jewish would take the dismissive position about the Bible that they do since they have to deny Christ and keep Judaism alive.

First where did you get the absurd idea that Jews are dismissive about Scripture? My praying the Sh'ma everyday or devoting my life to Biblical philology is your definition of "dismissive?"

And second, Judaism is not "kept alive by denying Christ." That is as stupid as saying that Christians have to deny Muhammad to keep Christianity alive.

Oh, and If you haven’t noticed, denying Christ actually does the opposite than keep Judaism alive. Denying Christ for the past 2000 years almost wiped us off the planet!

…Jesus is the big deal for Christians…

Now see, I didn’t know that. (Sarcasm.)

In other words, the Jews don't have to really accept Christ until the millennium comes.

So we just have to "kinda" accept him, is that what you're saying?

But we understand that for someone who thinks the Bible is just a book of myths, they wouldn't be impressed. But then, this understanding probably wasn't meant for them anyway and was meant for the chosen. That is, God really doesn't care if you don't think he exists or that the Bible is a book of myths because it wasn't written for you in the first place.

'The Bible wasn’t written for me, a Jew, in the first place. The Bible wasn’t written for me, a Jew, in the first place…'

This truck that hit you and did this to your brain. Did someone get the license plate number?

45

People should learn more about the Bible flaws

by opusdei1972 in

i have noted that the main problem for those who are seduced by the watchtower society is their ignorance about the bible itself.

people who believe that the bible is the word of god usually ignore the studies on textual criticism and how scientific criteria forbid absurd stories like that of the global flood.

so, i strongly believe that students in schools need at least an obligatory course on "the bible" through the point of view of science and the textual criticism.

CalebInFloroda

Opusdei,

I find that theory (and ones similar to it) more intellectually honest and even more significant to my spiritual convictions as a Jew than the idea that the Torah was composed in a more "all-at-once" dictation-like fashion. That Torah is the product of stories told again and again, re-shaped from generation to generation until written as we have them now just as divine an act as John hearing an angel telling him what to write down in the scroll of Revelation, even more so.

If the Jews as a people did have an encounter with a real G-d, then it would stand to reason that this revelation was entrusted to us all, not just one person at a time. When the Ten Commandments were first introduced to the nation, Torah says G-d spoke the words first before writing them down on stone. The words of G-d came to the people as a whole, not just one person or few people, and only then was it entrusted by consensus to certain agreed upon individuals later. The entire Tanakh is the faith history of a people, not a select group or magisterium or governing body. It comes from the hands of and is for all the children of Abraham and Sarah. If there was an inspiration process, why not inspire the hands of many for the many?

It means more to me if it satisfies the whole person, not just the spiritual. It has to satisfy the curious logistics of my mind. And as a Jew I want to see it for what it is. Why wouldn't I want to use critical methods therefore to help me understand it and appreciate it more?

To me not approaching Scripture with open eyes and every tool you've got is like forcing the Bible to fit your designs, your wants, your interpretations. That to me is building an idol: it's a false god that fits your designs, your wants and your interpretations. That just won't do.

I appreciate Scripture for being a composite work and containing a rich tapestry of myth and legend, poetry, prayer, and yes some history. As I endeavor to do with every person, I try to accept the Tanakh for what it itself is, not what I want or think it should be.

45

People should learn more about the Bible flaws

by opusdei1972 in

i have noted that the main problem for those who are seduced by the watchtower society is their ignorance about the bible itself.

people who believe that the bible is the word of god usually ignore the studies on textual criticism and how scientific criteria forbid absurd stories like that of the global flood.

so, i strongly believe that students in schools need at least an obligatory course on "the bible" through the point of view of science and the textual criticism.

CalebInFloroda

Lorenzo,

While I can often appreciate where you are coming from, you haven't completely gone in the opposite direction from the JWs. You tend to stick to the belief that the Scriptures were meant to be used like some sort of Magic 8 ball that has all the answers or can foretell the future like a crystal ball.

This is something you need to learn to get rid of. While you can have a personal relationship with G-d, Christians are fooling themselves if they think that Scripture was meant to be understood and read as an individual. At least the Jewish texts were not. A critical approach to their use demonstrates that.

The following applies at least to the purpose of the Jewish Scriptures. But this should give pause to those who believe in the New Testament due its claims of being "cut from the same cloth" as the Tanakh.

1. Interpretation of Scripture is by public consensus, not decided by a hierarchy down. If you come up with a personal interpretation, then it may apply to you if you wish but this is not what Jews do with their Scriptures. This was mainly a Gnostic approach to written texts and adapted by Marcion of Sinope for Christians. But for the Jews and their texts, there is no “enlightened few” or “pope and his cardinals/magisterium” or “governing body.” The correct understanding is the understanding of the people at large (and where there is no universal agreement on points there is generally no recognized definitive truth about them).

2. Prophecies are not visions of the future. Prophecies are “oracles,” pronouncements from G-d for the people of Israel. While once in a while they might include a forecast of events, this is not what a prophet normally does or what a prophecy entails. A prophecy is a statement from Heaven for public consumption (in Jewish society, that is). If a person just gets visions or foresees the future, this is not a prophet in Jewish terms. This is more correctly just a “seer.”

3. The Book of Daniel is a story about a prophet, but not a book of prophecy. If you note in the Jewish “canon” of Scriptures, Daniel is NOT among the Prophets (Nevi’im). The book is found among the Writings instead (Ketuvim). The reason is that Daniel contains stories of visions given to either Daniel or others that Daniel interprets. But there are no public oracles or statements for the people of Israel given in the text. Daniel couldn’t do that since he lived in Babylon, and (to reiterate) a prophecy is a statement or oracle for public consumption for the Jews as a whole. Visions are limited to a single person, and an interpretation of signs and dreams is not a prophecy by the Jewish Scriptural definition.

4. Teaching as truth the individual interpretation of Scriptural visions and prophecies of old is not allowed by Jewish Scripture, Jewish tradition, or Judaism. That is part of the worship of pagans, and Jews religious and secular avoid paganism. The finding of hidden codes or meanings in the Hebrew Scriptures is rejected as in Judaism all revelation is public.

5. Remember the rule of Moses! (Deuteronomy 18.15) If you ever want to know if your Christian beliefs about Scripture and their interpretation about the future are correct, remember that you have to follow the pattern of Moses. Moses was given the ability to perform miracles in full view of the public, believers and non-believers. Lack of faith of the people around you should not be an impediment to working the wonders of G-d. (Compare to Jesus of Nazareth at Matthew 13.58.) Moses’ own vision of G-d was eventually shared on a public scale when the burning bush on the side of Mt. Sinai was paralleled and surpassed by the Great Theophany that the nation as a whole witnessed after the Exodus. Also the message from Moses, though at first disbelieved by many, was eventually accepted by the Jewish nation in consensus. All of these ingredients have to be present for your individual messages to be acceptable according to Jewish Scripture and interpretation.

I'm not saying that all in Scripture is meant to be taken as fact, but I am also not saying it is just a bunch of malarkey either. It's value lies somewhere in between for those to whom it was entrusted.

If you are going to use the book of another religion for your beliefs, then you should at least read it according to the rules of that religion. Sometimes I think Christians are so crazy for how they treat what they call the "Old Testament." It's like claiming that the writings of Dalai Lama are true but not practicing Buddhism, or like using e-meters for "auditing" but not adopting Scientology, or even claiming that a vegetarian diet is what you believe all should be eating but instead consuming bacon-cheeseburgers everyday.