Posts by CalebInFloroda

39

Horrible Bosses

by John Aquila in

i just heard this a few minutes ago by a jw friend who is still an elder in my old hall.

the kingdom hall i used to attend and my mom still attends was paid off many years ago and serves about 6 congregations.

one of the english congregations has a lot of financially well of members.

CalebInFloroda

Marvelous, John, just marvelous! If only more had access to you in situations like these!

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

By the way, in regards to what others are saying in support of the ransom of Jesus, I am not after you to try to turn you from your beliefs. But I am interested in your replies. I ask these things with all due respect. I just think pros and cons on any subject is the way to go because not all who leave the JWs who read this board get a chance to hear all sides of the "Jesus" issue.

If memory serve me right wasn't Jesus pretty much beaten to a pulp by the Romans before being crucified? How can Jesus be a sacrifice in such a condition in light of Deuteronomy 17.1:

You shall not sacrifice to the Lord your God an ox or a sheep that has any defect of a serious kind, for that is abhorrent to the Lord your God.

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

CalebInFloroda

@TheWonderofYou

If Jews really had a tradition of a suffering Messiah, why was Peter so adamant with Jesus that this would NOT be the fate of the Messiah? Matthew 16.21-23 states:

"Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, ‘God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.’ But he turned and said to Peter, ‘Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling-block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.’"

Compare Mark 9.31-32 that tells how Christ’s disciples didn’t understand him mentioning how the Messiah had to suffer and die. If what you say is true, why were the disciples so unaware of this Jewish tradition? Were they bad Jews who didn’t know their religion? Were they intellectually or mentally challenged? How do you explain the meaning of texts like Mark 16.10-11 or John 20.9 if the Jews really had a tradition of a suffering Messiah? I would really like to know how the apostles of all people missed it. Why would the apostle Paul have to try to convince the Jews that the Messiah had to suffer and die if, like you claim, they already believed in such a thing?—Acts 17.2-3.

If this was the tradition as you state, why did the two Jews on the way to Emmaus not know about it?—Luke 24.17-20, 25-26.

Why do the Gospels say that these Jewish disciples of Jesus did not know of this so-called tradition until Jesus “opened their mind” to it. If they were already expecting it, why would the Gospels say differently?—Luke 24.45-46.

189

How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?

by jonathan dough in

how much was the ransom?

gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.

gods gift required more.

CalebInFloroda

On the other hand, just for argument sake, does the sin of a human being require anything else but the repentance of the same human being? And does G-d visit the sins of parents upon their children? Do the Hebrew Scriptures agree with the New Testament declaration: “Under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” (Hebrews 9.22) Or does Scripture testify that G-d can and does forgive without shedding blood?

Romans 5.12 teaches that "sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all." But the idea that the sin of Adam causes us to inherit sin that requires redemption is counter to the words found in Ezekiel 18:

The word of the Lord came to me: What do you mean by quoting this proverb upon the soil of Israel, “Parents eat sour grapes and their children’s teeth are blunted”? As I live—declares the Lord God—this proverb shall no longer be current among you in Israel….The person who sins, only he shall die…

The person who sins, he alone shall die. A child shall not share the burden of a parent’s guilt, nor shall a parent share the burden of a child’s guilt; the righteousness of the righteous shall be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be accounted to him alone.—Ezekiel 18.1-20.

Either the concept of Original Sin or inheriting sin from Adam (or Eve) is true or the words of Ezekiel are true, but not both. Either G-d visits the sins of parents upon their children, contradicting the words of Ezekiel, or the story of Adam and Eve have to be interpreted in the light of Ezekiel 18.

And the idea that a human sacrifice is needed to forgive sins, that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” also goes against the words of Ezekiel:

Moreover, if the wicked one repents of all the sins that he committed and keeps all My laws and does what is just and right, he shall live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions he committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness he has practiced, he shall live. Is it my desire that a wicked person shall die?—says the Lord God. It is rather that he shall turn back from his ways and live.—18.21-23.

Note that G-d does not require a blood sacrifice of even an animal to forgive sins. A wicked person can merely have a change of heart and turn around their lives to keep in line with G-d’s laws and do what is just and right. By merely doing this does G-d promise “none of the transgressions he committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness he has practiced, he shall live.”

The idea that the Jewish Messiah would have to die and that faith in his shed blood was necessary for forgiveness sounds like the same complaint the Israelites made against these words of Ezekiel. These stubborn ancient Israelites didn’t agree with G-d’s way of forgiving people and showing mercy:

Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” Listen, O House of Israel: Is My way unfair? It is your ways that are unfair! …if a wicked person turns back from the wickedness that he practiced and does what is just and right, such a person shall save his life. Because he took heed and turned back from all the transgressions that he committed, he shall live; he shall not die.—18.25-28.

Is the idea of a ransom sacrifice provided by Jesus compatible with the G-d of Israel and the prophets?

62

Basic Bible and Religious Vocabulary the Watchtower Never Teaches

by CalebInFloroda in

when i began formal study of religion and biblical analysis it was like peeling off layer after layer of dark matter, sticky and putrid that had stuck over my eyes and ears and mouth.

i learned that under the watchtower one only builds a widening gap between yourself and the world of biblical academia and scholars.

i used to think i knew a lot because i learned to quote a few scholars or lexicons as a witness.

CalebInFloroda

Don't worry, FayeDunaway. I was just making an example.

10

Crazy myths about the way GB is "guided"

by paradisebeauty in

there are a few jw's i know who believe that when the gb takes a decision this is what happens:.

each member goes into a separate room, prays about something.

after that, they get together and they all have the same thought about the issue.. what are the craziest ideas you heard about the way they are "guided".

CalebInFloroda

@Vidiot

Oh my gosh, I'm old enough to be your parent! LOL

62

Basic Bible and Religious Vocabulary the Watchtower Never Teaches

by CalebInFloroda in

when i began formal study of religion and biblical analysis it was like peeling off layer after layer of dark matter, sticky and putrid that had stuck over my eyes and ears and mouth.

i learned that under the watchtower one only builds a widening gap between yourself and the world of biblical academia and scholars.

i used to think i knew a lot because i learned to quote a few scholars or lexicons as a witness.

CalebInFloroda

@kepler

Those are good ones too. I am sure we can all add to the list things that are quite basic but vital to fundamental study of Scripture and religion in general. I think it would be good if we just kept adding to the list and marking the definition down so that others still in the JW religion can see that there exists a marked difference between what they learn and the reality of what is real study and research.

62

Basic Bible and Religious Vocabulary the Watchtower Never Teaches

by CalebInFloroda in

when i began formal study of religion and biblical analysis it was like peeling off layer after layer of dark matter, sticky and putrid that had stuck over my eyes and ears and mouth.

i learned that under the watchtower one only builds a widening gap between yourself and the world of biblical academia and scholars.

i used to think i knew a lot because i learned to quote a few scholars or lexicons as a witness.

CalebInFloroda

@FayeDunaway

Oh yes. I know of several Pentecostal movements for example who look forward to a restored earth.

62

Basic Bible and Religious Vocabulary the Watchtower Never Teaches

by CalebInFloroda in

when i began formal study of religion and biblical analysis it was like peeling off layer after layer of dark matter, sticky and putrid that had stuck over my eyes and ears and mouth.

i learned that under the watchtower one only builds a widening gap between yourself and the world of biblical academia and scholars.

i used to think i knew a lot because i learned to quote a few scholars or lexicons as a witness.

CalebInFloroda

@paradisebeauty

You are correct. "Roman" Catholicism began when it was recognized as the official state religion.

But the term "Catholic" goes back to the year 108 C.E. when Ignatius coined it to counter the Gnostic threat. Gnosticism teaches that salvific truth comes only to a select group of enlightened persons (and those they deign to teach in their ways). "Catholic" Christianity by comparison teaches that salvation is open to all, despite position in life, and that revelation or enlightenment is not limited to a select few.

62

Basic Bible and Religious Vocabulary the Watchtower Never Teaches

by CalebInFloroda in

when i began formal study of religion and biblical analysis it was like peeling off layer after layer of dark matter, sticky and putrid that had stuck over my eyes and ears and mouth.

i learned that under the watchtower one only builds a widening gap between yourself and the world of biblical academia and scholars.

i used to think i knew a lot because i learned to quote a few scholars or lexicons as a witness.

CalebInFloroda

To help people understand what I mean (and yes, most of you are correct), I am referring to non-Gnostic Christianity, which went by the Greek self-description of KATHOLICOS, which means "universal; all-inclusive." It describes the movement which eventually split into Western and Eastern parts, the Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church.

That is why I described it originally with the "Catholicism/Orthodoxy" label, and I was speaking of what grew into this movement. I will be careful not to do that in the context of this board in the future because for a moment I forgot that some words can mean different things to exJWs. My bad!