Posts by CalebInFloroda

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

Yeah, opusdei, I think the Watchtower is so ignorant when it makes these conclusions.

It is so simple to merely do research in Judaism or to consult something like The Jewish Study Bible and get a glimpse of what type of Jewish thought went into what is now considered as Holy Writ.

What amazes me the most is that the Governing Body doesn't do this at all, nor do their assistant writers. The issue of blood, for example, comes from the common ancient butchering system common to most people of the Mesopotamian district. "Sacrifices" were really the "butcher shop" of the Hebrew world. Slaughter of living animals was carried out in a humane way, with "offerings" of blood (a symbol of life) given back to G-d. This is easily learned as it is a very basic concept.

This was just an ancient way of Jews "telling" G-d: "We know this life comes from you. Thanks, now let's eat!" We Jews haven't rebuilt the Temple because, among other things, we recognize this was just the ancient "meat distribution" system set up in ancient cultures. We have Kosher butchers now or, for those Jews who don't keep kashrut, the corner grocer will do. We now give thanks at home, before and after meals. The altar before the Temple is a relic of a very ancient past.

The blood issue was still alive and well in the first century merely because many pagans and heathens still prepared their meat this way, as an offering to a god. That is why you have the information written at 1 Corinthians 8.7-10 and 10.27-29. It still bothered some Christians that meat processed by Gentiles was prepared in a ritual that thanked the local god for the life of the animal.

In short, the JWs are off because the issue on blood is about thanking the right G-d for it. Animal products processed at the Temple were acceptable, but those that weren't raised questions. Also, the expression about "blood" in Acts 15 as I believed I mentioned before in one of Terry's threads, is a reference to the Noachian Laws and a prohibition against murder. It is silly to compare all of this to life-saving blood transfusions.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

Actually Modern Biblical scholarship dismissed the idea that leprosy is the skin disease being spoken of in the Scriptures, but the Watchtower has not caught up yet with that information. Most modern Bible versions since the 1970s don't ever use the word "leprosy" due to this.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Perry,

You are doing it again.

I've stated clearly that Jews have never understood those texts as Christains do. These are not my own opinions, you can check for yourself with Jewish sites in the Internet or look it up in Jewish study materials.

Christians wrote the New Testament, correct? Whose interpretation of the NT would be more accurate, that of Muslims or that of Christians of their own Scriptures? Who can interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church better, Mormons or Catholics? And can't Jews have a better understanding of their own Scriptures and theology than others?

I pray in Hebrew, speak Hebrew, read Hebrew all through the day. I am a Jew, and our culture and theology are well known. They are not what you say they are. Those Scriptures don't mean what Gentile Christians say they do, at least not to us. All due respect, but your beliefs are based on interpretations that don't come from Jews.

You are not free When you say Jews don't know their own Scriptures that they composed and reflects their unique culture and unique theology; that is a sign that you are not free at all but bound to the same blindness loved by people who are still in the Watchtower. Ignorance is not freedom.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@opusdei1972

A horrible thought, no matter how you read it, that verse is the end of a song lamenting what the Babylonians did to the Jews and their own children in the process.

Many Jewish infants died in the siege and deportation to Babylon. To top things off, once in captivity, the Babylonians further taunted the Jews to continue with their liturgical actions of thanksgiving that once filled the First Temple.

While the Jews felt they could not offer songs of thanksgiving, they did make up a song to sing about Babylon starting in the verse before the one you quote:

"A blessing on him who repays you in kind/what you have inflicted on us;/a blessing on him who seizes your babies/and dashes them against the rocks!"

In other words: "The only song we will sing to you is that we will bless those who do to you what you did to us, who will do to your children what you did to ours!"

The text isn't advising people to seek vengeance but describing how painful it was for the Jews to endure captivity and taunts.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@SecretSlaveClass

I would say you are right on target.

Of course you do have to consider that you are leaning heavily on concepts introduced via the New Testsment. A belief in the devil and demons are post-Tanakh (after the Hebrew Bible was composed), and their connection with illness appears to have come from Hellenistic influences.

There is also well-established exegetical theory that suggests New Testament references to "demons" in connection with health challenges may be partially idiomatic. It appears that sometime after the return from Babylon that a popular view among Jews of health problems drew connections from an attempt to explain them, either connecting them to sin, ceremonial uncleanness, or activity of demonic forces which was new to the scene. Stories like those found in the book of Tobit (which connects a demon to all types of problems) actually became popular in Jewish society. The New Testament message seems to not merely explain a power of Jesus over these types of "demons" but might suggest an exposure of this type of thinking as faulty.

In the end, there was no attempt by any Bible writers to employ a scientific explanation to lessons which were meant to be used for religious catechesis or designed to fit liturgical needs.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@Perry

And again, a point which you seem with Watchtower-blindness to skip over and ignore, we Jews do not believe that our actions hold any merit with G-d or impress him or gain us salvation. I've said that before but you keep acting as if those words have never been written here on this thread by me.

JWs act the same you are doing, claiming that others don't know their own convictions as well as they, JWs do. Why are you going back to the same attitudes?

I think it great if you want to be a Christian, and despite anything I've written I also think it can bring you closer to G-d (it's not one thing or the other in Jewish thought). My religion teaches me it is wrong to claim that Christians "imagine" G-d into something that G-d isn't or that Christians embrace a theology that they clearly do not. Apparently your religion teaches differently.

Back to the subject at hand...the idea that the Biblical texts provide a literal model for the physical world creates more problems than they solve.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Flood stories in ancient Mesopotamian literature are a type of cosmogony-creation story. All cultures from that area believed that life and the elements of the universe came from a cosmic sea (there was no vacuum of space in their minds).

One cosmogony does not state that there was a "beginning" in the traditional sense. This particular model claims that life in our current world came from life of a previous world that was destroyed via a flood or collapse of the cosmic waters.

The details differ, but the gods (an essential element or "players" in the cosmogony) either warn a human of the coming deluge who contracts a vehicle to transfer himself and animals from the old world to the present or the gods do the tranfering themselves.

The Noachin flood is the third of three creation-origin stories emoloyed by the Hebrew people in their religious tradition. In it the "sin" of the previous world is wiped out to make room for the new, good, and holiness of the present. In this new paradigm animals are said to fear humans and carnivorous diets as said to begin, but this is due not to sin but due to sin being wiped away by the flood.

Of course the Bible is not saying that the world has seen three creations. The culture from which the Jews emerged shared these three cosmogony models in common, and each was employed in the prologue leading to the "history" of the Jewish people. If you note, the first 11 chapters of Genesis are filled with origin stories, but beginning with chapter 12 the type of narrative used changes dramatically with the call of Abraham. These origin stories are a deposit of the various traditions cherished by the Jews, not a literal history of the world in the chronological order in which they occurred.

The Noachin flood is just the last of the "creations" in this deposit before moving on to address the setting for the actual Torah which begins with the lives of Abraham and Sarah. The eating of animals by animals is seen as a nominal facet of this "new world" without sin after the "flood," but each of the three traditions are backdrops for a more important truth that comes with the Law, not in the creation stories themselves.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Post script for Perry:

One thing that might help you understand the stark differencs between the concepts you have as a Christian and that of the Jews is your mentioning serving "the G-d of the Bible."

That doesn't exist for Jews since we knew G-d before any of us put "pen to paper" to create even a stroke of a letter of what would eventually become the Bible.

Christians may believe in the G-d of the Bible, but Jews believe in the G-d of Abraham and Sarah, and we did this before there was a Bible.

We believed in G-d before the Ten Commandments were inscribed on stone.

We believed in G-d before G-d revealed the Torah to Moses.

Now it is a good thing to believe in the Bible and what you learn of G-d within its pages, don't get me wrong.

But the G-d of the Jews existed before the Bible and is not limited to the Bible. Thus our theological concepts can differ greatly. We are the people who knew about and worshipped G-d before there was a Bible, and we wrote the Book you put your faith in.

Scripture is the product of our religion, not its basis. The G-d we interact with is not found just in Scripture. At best, G-d is merely reflected in it, at least as Jews understand G-d.

So approaches and conclusions can only differ since you are basing you belief on what a book says about G-d, but we wrote the book based on our experiences. That is very different.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Perry,

Jews have never had either a doctrine of "Original Sin" or a doctrine of "salvation." What you are talking about is how Christians have reinterpreted (and in some cases mistranslated) certain Jewish texts.

But regardless of the interpretations or renderings, Jews still don't have such doctrines.

For instance, you mention "works" being advocated by the Jehovah's Witnesses as a requisite to salvation. Did you know that it is a misconception that Jews believe that works of the Mosaic Law can gain salvation?

It's simple:

a. Jews have no doctrine of Original Sin

b. Jews therefore see no need for gaining salvation

c. There is no such theological concept of "works" of the Law in Judaism

d. Obedience to the Law (or as we Jews call it, being Torah-observant) provides no merit

e. Ezekiel 18 declares that the sin of parents cannot be visited upon children and that an individual can repent of the wickedness and be judged righteous without any type of sacrifice

While I understand the Christian viewpoint and your need to explain your view, it still doesn't change the fact that what you believe is not what Jews or their Scriptures teach, which is the point I was making.

And besides, with all due respect, I was not trying to counter your beliefs as a Christian. It does not violate your views to declare that the Jews who wrote the Hebrew Tanakh had no concept of Original Sin or held to a theology of personal salvation since Christian belief is that such views were introduced by Jesus of Nazareth. That being so, it would be expected that no such declarations would be found in any immediate reading of any Jewish religious texts.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

I have to agree with both Introvert 2 and defender of truth.

Psalm 104 was clearly composed by someone reflecting on the visible world as normally witnessed by Semites. The writer never states that they have a special insight into the Creator's mind as to why things were so. On the contrary the psalmist limits the composition to facets of nature of quite a limited scope, one an Israelite of that ancient period could witness during their own lifetime.

Instead of fanciful mythology, the writer is very realistic in this instance. He applauds not the miracles described of in the New Testament but the miracles of the natural world. Even how lions capture their prey is attributed to G-d here as part of this "miracle," without any excuse for how "violent" this may appear or claiming that sin has somehow upset the balance of nature. On the contrary all this is good and contrasted with the way of sinners, which at the end of the psalm are requested to be removed from this scene of holiness which includes nature's circle of life and death.