Posts by CalebInFloroda

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Perry,

I'm Jewish, a Sephardic Jew of the tribe of Judah. My ancestors were Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob and Rachel and Leah.

My ancestors included many who were forced to accept Christianity or else torture or being expelled from Spain. Thus during the Spanish Inquisition many of my ancestors were persecuted by Christians, some murdered, and in 1492 we were sent out from our homes with the sealing of the Alhambra Decree.

Just a couple of months ago I received formal apologies from Christians and their official religious groups in Europe who either actively participated in the Holocaust or stood by and did nothing. During those 6 dark years 2 million direct relatives of mine were sent to the death camps in full view of people who follow your Christ. None of the Sephardic communities of Europe remained after all was said and done. My native Jewish tongue, Ladino, is now going extinct due to the horrors of the Holocaust and millions of Christians who remained silent witnesses to genocide.

I did not "find Jews" who agree with my beliefs. I was taught the traditions of my ancestors, and it is these I have spoken of here. Who are you to tell me to stop listening to my people? My culture and religion and Scriptures are inseparable. They are a holistic expression of what it means to be Jewish and what it means to be "the people of the Book."

Who are you, a descendent of pagans and heathens, to tell me that I am making up the traditions and theology I have inherited as a right from my people? Who are you, a Christian, who is dependent on the stock of Israel for all you call holy, to claim that I am merely inventing these things?

Maybe I am looking at things wrongly. perhaps it would be better if I joined your religion and became the same type of Christian you are so I can find another Jew to insult as you have insulted me in the same manner and with the same words you have. If this is what being Christian means, to state things about me that have no basis then no wonder your spiritual ancestors handed my people over to the ovens of Auschwitz.

22

Jesus The Perfect Reflection Of The Father?

by JW_Rogue in

so this week's wt study was all about jesus and the miracles he performed.

according to the study this proves that god wants to heal mankind in the same way.

because as we all know jesus is a perfect reflection of his heavenly father.

CalebInFloroda

@opusdei

I recall my early studies during my reversion process about how the Messianic concept evolved in Judaism.

When the Roman occupation occurred is when the personal Messiah concept developed. Due to the oppression from Rome, the Messiah was solidly linked with the Davidic dynasty when previously it was only infrequently connected therewith. The Messiah was at that point in time hoped to be a new king that would break the yoke of Rome and bring freedom to the state.

Jewish hopes had always linked the Messianic Age to come with "redemption," which in Jewish theology is limited to relief from injustice, poverty, sickness and other ailments of the physical world. The Christians reinterpreted this, likely for convenience, when Jesus of Nazareth ended up dying. The "redemption" now tied with the Messiah by Christians was one from "sin" inherited from Adam, a concept foreign to Judaism. The other physical facets of "redemption" were thus transferred to a future Second Coming since it was not possible to totally invent the Messianic concept without using the literal and basic meaning of the "redemption" which is still central to the Jews.

Today it is generally recognized that the coming Jewish Messiah who would be a monarch is not likely to be the case. Monarchies are institutions that have become obsolete, so what the Jews expect (while not necessarily rejecting the possible revival of the Davidic dynasty) has advanced beyond the ancient descriptions. Some Jews have moved beyond the concept of the Messiah even being a person, believing that the prophecies and hopes may have been using personifications and ancient concepts to describe something else, perhaps even something that humans can achieve together through humanitarian efforts.

This does not mean that Christians are lost either. The basic ideas of what the Messiah concept entails has now been spread abroad through the ministry of Christians to the extent that should things turn out different from what Christians expect, they should still be able to accept whatever the fulfillment of the Messianic hopes eventually turn out to be.

53

What is their official explanation for not allowing beards?

by keyser soze in

jw
friends

i ask because my gf, who knows all about my jw upbringing, convinced me to grow a goatee, just to see how it looks.

we both decided it looked good so i decided to keep it.

i tried to explain to her that as a jw, i wasn't allowed to grow one, but then drew a blank when she asked me why.

CalebInFloroda

I find the JW illustrations highly anti-Semitic.

You never see Jews in the Witness paradise, no yarmulkes or facial hair, no prayer shawls or other indication than anything other than Gentile pagan customs will be the rule of the land.

Shaving is a pagan practice, and if you notice from the way they make you dress even today a Jew would be forced to assimilate in order to be accepted. Witnesses think they are free from paganism, but they are just ignorant of how pagan they really are.

22

Jesus The Perfect Reflection Of The Father?

by JW_Rogue in

so this week's wt study was all about jesus and the miracles he performed.

according to the study this proves that god wants to heal mankind in the same way.

because as we all know jesus is a perfect reflection of his heavenly father.

CalebInFloroda

Colossians 1.15 states that Christians believed Jesus to be "the image of the invisible God." The Greek word for "image" is EIKON and is the same word to describe the inscription of Ceasar's bust on coins and the idolatrous "image" of the wild beast in Revelation.

The expression in reference to Jesus MIGHT imply or suggest that he was viewed as the physical icon or graven image of God, suggesting that Pauline theology saw worship of Jesus as something akin to worshipping the invisible YHWH.

This text is used as support from Orthodox and Roman Catholics in incorporating their use of images of Jesus (and others) in their worship. Such language and usage, however, is considered idolatrous by Jews and is considered one of the blocks to accepting Jesus, an "image" of the Father, as the promised Messiah of Jewish hopes.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

Wonderful questions. Never be apologetic for asking questions, at least not with me.

First, we Jews in general aren’t in the business of fooling ourselves into believing we have always been holy or faithful worshipers of G-d. We acknowledge coming from a pretty savage race that was the product of a savage time. Like all other races we probably gave ourselves far more credit in the Scriptures for being far more blessed by G-d than we should have, and we often claimed that G-d was behind things we ourselves clearly did on our own.

Now you have to let go of the idea that just because it’s in the Bible and attributed to G-d that it really happened that way. That’s an ancient narrative device that doesn’t reflect a theological reality. It’s similar to what you read in Psalm 22 where the psalmist asks G-d why he has been forsaken.

Well, obviously the psalmist got it wrong. If he had been forsaken then how on earth did the psalm become an inspired piece of work in the Hebrew Scriptures? That doesn’t mean the psalmist who composed it didn’t believe at the time that G-d had abandoned him or at least felt that way. He did indeed. The theological reality is that his feelings and viewpoint didn't match G-d's, who was obviously paying attention, and this false point of view of the psalmist got transferred into the psalm as we have it today.

In the same sense you will read in Scripture how G-d commanded us to do certain things, like attack people who were living in the Promised Land. In reality what this means is that we attribute our “successes” or “victories” to G-d. If a battle went well, it was because "G-d was behind it." If we failed, it is because "we were being bad." It is a primitive mentality. And it’s there in the Scriptures for everyone to look at.

But such battles and "commands" that claim that G-d was behind certain slaughters or demanding the stoning of people is no more true than the Bible’s claim that we were monotheistic throughout our history. The truth of the matter is we weren’t.

What can be gathered from historical and archeological records and finds is that Israel wasn’t monotheistic until the Davidic dynasty made worship of YHWH the state religion. Up till that point the archeological record proves that we Jews loved our idols and worshipped tribal gods. The Bible states that we only infrequently fell into such idolatry, and that when we did it was the fault of those pesky Gentiles that surrounded us or lived in our land. But in reality, idol worship was the thing until King David made it illegal to worship any other G-d but his own. The idols disappear from the archeological record when the Temple appears, and this happened in the Biblical record as well by redaction.

Does this mean the Bible is therefore a book of lies? Well it's definitely not a book of facts. It's very much like the history of the United States that has George Washington chopping down cherry trees, Lincoln growing up in a tiny log cabin, and Paul Revere riding around declaring: "The British are coming! The British are coming!" None of these things actually happened, but there are values and truths transmitted through these legends.

The Bible is no different. It says things in ancient ways, not literal. You have to rely on the intention of the writers and study whether stories were originally meant for oral transmission over written medium (and other critical methods) to understand the what and why behind these texts. They are definitely not light reading.

So yes, these texts that describe savage behavior are more connected to the people of the time and how they expressed ideas. They aren't meant to reflect the type of "unchangeable realities" that JWs attribute to them.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@Diogenesister

Sure it reads that way--if you believe the Jehovah's Witnesses and adhere to their particular literal reading of the Scriptures. But doing that won't match up with anything you can find or verify historically or archeologically.

You have to read the directive for sacrifices from Jewish Scripture much as you would of any culture that practiced the same thing. You also need to have a good idea of how and why ancient cultures did this. We are talking about eating. Not only were animals sacrificed, but the first fruits of grains and first batches of oil and wine.

One striking thing to remember is that the Jewish doctrine that G-d is very unlike humans is pre-Biblical, and therefore you can't read the texts without understanding that at all times. G-d neither eats, nor breathes, nor smells...etc. Jews have always been adamant about this. We don't even refer to G-d as "he" (you might notice this from my writing). The Scripture pronoun "he" in Hebrew when used in reference to G-d actually mean "he/she/it" and has no equivalence in English.

This means Jews knew G-d had no use for animal blood or the smell caused by an offering on the altar. Therefore you have to read the expressions with this in mind.

Without the sacrificial system people could not get a lot of the foodstuffs they needed. The priestly class could not feed itself. People who were not physically able to keep large cattle under their control as they slaughtered them for meat (have you ever tried to hold down a cow as you made a hamburger out of him?) would have to settle for vegetarian diets while only the strong could enjoy a good steak!

What the system did was offer a continual way to give thanks to G-d for each animal slaughtered. It removed parts that weren't edible or thought proper for the diet (fat and certain innards are set "aside for G-d"), and provided a way for all to get what they needed from the cattle they raised.

If you think people brought animals to the Temple with fear that G-d would strike them down, you really don't have an idea of what it's like to live in a world without your corner Piggly-Wiggly or Taco Bell stand readily offering you food. Jews weren't the only people who did this in ancient times. It was the norm before some clown invented McDonald's.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@SecretSlaveClass

Thanks.

I almost didn’t join this site because I had been away so very long from the JWs. And then I let my feelings get hurt when someone misunderstood what I was doing here and I brought up Judaism.

Then someone I knew reminded me of why it was important to share what I have learned and been through since being a Witness. Since the issues dealt with all stem from the Jewish Scriptures, Jewish monotheism concept, Jewish religion, etc., I was in a unique place to help exJWs on their journey. Being that Judaism has room to embrace the agnostic and atheist, I was also reminded that it could be important for many leaving the Watchtower to see that the start of it all, Judaism, was not so cut and dry or about “belief” in concepts.

In the time that passed since leaving the JWs I became a language specialist who focused on literary transmission through the ages (a field known as “philology”). I have had the honor of helping Bible translation scholars over the past several years in their work, as well as other religious professionals, all of them Christian despite the fact that I returned to my Jewish roots once I left the Watchtower. My specialty, of course, is Hebrew religious literature, so I became a much requested commodity of sorts with the ecumenical translations which have recently been released.

So I have to give credit to that past experience and my Jewish culture. I’m just remembering things. I would be happy to point you to the some resources, but realize that there is no exhaustive and complete list out there. We are talking about a subject that literally reaches back thousands of years into the past.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

Yeah, opusdei, I think the Watchtower is so ignorant when it makes these conclusions.

It is so simple to merely do research in Judaism or to consult something like The Jewish Study Bible and get a glimpse of what type of Jewish thought went into what is now considered as Holy Writ.

What amazes me the most is that the Governing Body doesn't do this at all, nor do their assistant writers. The issue of blood, for example, comes from the common ancient butchering system common to most people of the Mesopotamian district. "Sacrifices" were really the "butcher shop" of the Hebrew world. Slaughter of living animals was carried out in a humane way, with "offerings" of blood (a symbol of life) given back to G-d. This is easily learned as it is a very basic concept.

This was just an ancient way of Jews "telling" G-d: "We know this life comes from you. Thanks, now let's eat!" We Jews haven't rebuilt the Temple because, among other things, we recognize this was just the ancient "meat distribution" system set up in ancient cultures. We have Kosher butchers now or, for those Jews who don't keep kashrut, the corner grocer will do. We now give thanks at home, before and after meals. The altar before the Temple is a relic of a very ancient past.

The blood issue was still alive and well in the first century merely because many pagans and heathens still prepared their meat this way, as an offering to a god. That is why you have the information written at 1 Corinthians 8.7-10 and 10.27-29. It still bothered some Christians that meat processed by Gentiles was prepared in a ritual that thanked the local god for the life of the animal.

In short, the JWs are off because the issue on blood is about thanking the right G-d for it. Animal products processed at the Temple were acceptable, but those that weren't raised questions. Also, the expression about "blood" in Acts 15 as I believed I mentioned before in one of Terry's threads, is a reference to the Noachian Laws and a prohibition against murder. It is silly to compare all of this to life-saving blood transfusions.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

Actually Modern Biblical scholarship dismissed the idea that leprosy is the skin disease being spoken of in the Scriptures, but the Watchtower has not caught up yet with that information. Most modern Bible versions since the 1970s don't ever use the word "leprosy" due to this.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Perry,

You are doing it again.

I've stated clearly that Jews have never understood those texts as Christains do. These are not my own opinions, you can check for yourself with Jewish sites in the Internet or look it up in Jewish study materials.

Christians wrote the New Testament, correct? Whose interpretation of the NT would be more accurate, that of Muslims or that of Christians of their own Scriptures? Who can interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church better, Mormons or Catholics? And can't Jews have a better understanding of their own Scriptures and theology than others?

I pray in Hebrew, speak Hebrew, read Hebrew all through the day. I am a Jew, and our culture and theology are well known. They are not what you say they are. Those Scriptures don't mean what Gentile Christians say they do, at least not to us. All due respect, but your beliefs are based on interpretations that don't come from Jews.

You are not free When you say Jews don't know their own Scriptures that they composed and reflects their unique culture and unique theology; that is a sign that you are not free at all but bound to the same blindness loved by people who are still in the Watchtower. Ignorance is not freedom.