Posts by CalebInFloroda

35

Cognitive Dissonance

by LexIsFree in

jw
friends

the cognitive dissonance amongst jws has never been more obvious to me then what i just experience in the last 5 min.

long story short i had a phone conversation w/my mom about some things and i mentioned to her to look up what has been going on with their beloved organization in australia.

brother geoffrey jackson of the holy governing body was caught lying numerous times about several subjects including disassociations & shunning.

CalebInFloroda

@Done4good

Cognitive dissonance is not readily accepted in academia, the medical profession or behavior studies as fully established, let alone definitively defined and universally accepted.

It appears to be a popular "panacea" or buzz word in Internet discussions regarding cults and ideological movements, but it is often used incorrectly.

For those who know music and play an instrument, you are likely familiar with the word "dissonance" as the opposite of "harmony." As you can play a set of notes that "match" as a harmonious cord, those that "clash" to the ear are called "dissonant." Cognitive dissonance is the same, when you are faced with conflicting information that clashes.

It ONLY refers to the time such cognitive clashing exists. If a person no longer accepts or pays attention to one of the subjects causing the clashing, the dissonance ends.

It is just like playing a harmonious cord on a piano and adding one clashing note in the mix. If you stop or reject the use of the clashing note by releasing the key, the dissonant sound ends and harmony is restored.

Cognitive dissonance is only that time that all conflicting or clashing thoughts are put into play at the same time. Once any of the "notes" that cause the clashing get released, the dissonance stops.

Avoiding cognitive dissonance is the same as not having cognitive dissonance just as avoiding a clashing note on a piano is not having a dissonant cord. What I am trying to help people realize is that some misuse the term "cognitive dissonance" to refer to the denial state of many JWs. The fact is that if they were all put in a state that would cause the hypothetical CD state, if the studies are correct, they would be forced to make a decision one way or another. But being in the state of denial or simply believing a false doctrine is not the same as "cognitive dissonance."

Just the fact that people keep debating with me on this point is in itself a demonstration of what is often termed as CD. People are having a hard time letting go of the misuse of the term so they defend and argue about it, some attempting to make it sound like it's universal behavioral science, and it is not.

35

Cognitive Dissonance

by LexIsFree in

jw
friends

the cognitive dissonance amongst jws has never been more obvious to me then what i just experience in the last 5 min.

long story short i had a phone conversation w/my mom about some things and i mentioned to her to look up what has been going on with their beloved organization in australia.

brother geoffrey jackson of the holy governing body was caught lying numerous times about several subjects including disassociations & shunning.

CalebInFloroda

@ListlessWitness

"Cognitve dissonance" is a hypothetical model currently under discussion and test in the behavioral sciences. It is not certain whether the state is genuine and, if it is, that everyone who is a state of denial experiences it before denial or accepting truth.

However, being someone who witnesses a lot of this on a regular basis, I tend to believe that cognitive dissonance is very real. Be that as it may, "cogntive dissonance" means "mental disharmony."

It is the state when a person has two conflicting situations in their minds, both of which they view as fact AND undergo distress, discomfort, pain, or other signs of emotional stress as a result.

The Harry Potter books and films are famous for their CD-inducing formula in which we the audience see each story through the eyes of the protagonist, get fooled into thinking he has made the right conclusions, only to realize he is wrong. At this point Harry has to make a decision how to act, and we the audience are hooked. We have to know the truth and the answers ourselves, so we read on or keep watching, again hooked.

Harry is a hero in that he never stays in his state of cognitive dissonance for very long. He immediately wakes up, ending the cognitive dissonance by decisive action which, because we see each story through his eyes is very satisfying to us.

Note, the actions of Harry Potter after he learns the truth are never done in the state of cognitive dissonance. Harry has found a solution to dealing with two conflicting beliefs, albeit the right one. But the reality is that most people don't immediately respond to cognitive dissonance, and sometimes they stop the stress by denial. Harry is a hero because he does this immediately and always make the right choice in the end.

Three other films baptize their audiences in cognitive dissonance very successfully, namely "Fight Club" and Hitchcock's masterpieces "Vertigo" and "Psycho." Most people describe these films as having "surprise endings," but in reality each ends up telling a completely different or foreign story in the end than the one you believed you started to watch. The cognitive dissonance that results is actually like a thrill ride, and each of these films is highly praised for their conclusion "payoffs." But the conclusions are only satisfying because they relieve the stress they cause.

Cognitive dissonance is only a temporary state, but you are right that it will rise again if you don't stop falling for falsehood that keeps getting proven wrong. But it is still temporary stress, discomfort, a state that seeks immediate relief.

35

Cognitive Dissonance

by LexIsFree in

jw
friends

the cognitive dissonance amongst jws has never been more obvious to me then what i just experience in the last 5 min.

long story short i had a phone conversation w/my mom about some things and i mentioned to her to look up what has been going on with their beloved organization in australia.

brother geoffrey jackson of the holy governing body was caught lying numerous times about several subjects including disassociations & shunning.

CalebInFloroda

While this is a typical example of JW denial, it is not cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is a feeling of discomfort and mental stress. Symptoms of cognitive dissonance include saying repetitious phrases like "I don't understand!" Or "I can't listen to this anymore!"

The person may cover their ears, or if the cognitive dissonance is caused by something they see, they may shut their eyes. Some run in fear from what causes the stress. Some may grow angry, violent, curse, feel sick, sweat, get nervous, scared, get a headache, even contemplate suicide.

But what you are talking about is merely lying to oneself or making excuses. True, cognitive dissonance may lead to denial, but it is the step before that. People cannot function with cognitive dissonance and seek immediate relief. Some wake up, others go into denial, a minority go mad over the experience.

In the end, once denial is chosen there is no more dissonance as denial is a solution which brings relief.

37

Jehovah's people are the happiest people on earth!

by Coded Logic in

so this afternoon my roommate and i decided to go grab some dinner from the local chipotle and, as we live only a short distance from the franchise, we decided it was a good idea to walk.

little did i know that the j-dubs district convention here in sacramento was just getting out (the auditorium is literally smack in the middle of downtown and its attendees have to park in garages scattered a couple blocks away in every direction) so men in cheap suits and women in unflattering dress' were walking all over the place as though someone had antagonized their ungodly ant hill.

and, for sacramento, this of course is the complete opposite of the normative - that is to say, our streets are usually filled with well dressed, immaculately groomed, 'i know exactly where i'm going' government officials that monopolize the state capitol m-f. .

CalebInFloroda

I remember the quote of a Catholic saint who, according to her, had conversations with the Virgin Mary. St. Bernadette Soubirous was told by the Virgin: "I cannot guarantee you happiness in this world, only in the next."

Okay, as you folks know this Jew is not stating Catholicism is the true religion or that these events were real, but it does highlight something very peculiar about cults compared to mainstream religions and even regular non-religious folks: happiness is not a guarantee in life, and we know it.

Cults and ideologies have a set of earmarks or signs that make people say: "Yep, that's a cult." One of them is the fact that their members constantly talk about how HAPPY they are and how the world does not enjoy their brand of happiness. "See? Everything is normal!" they try to assure us. "We're happy."

Their religious literature advertises ways to be happy, they smile like they are happy all they time, they often produce programming showing how happy they are.

Normal people don't do this.

For those who don't know the famous story of St. Bernadette Soubirous, she's the girl who discovered the fountains at Lourdes, France. Though the Catholic Church did not believe her at the time, and many persecuted her regarding the events, St. Bernadette received what is now believed by the Catholic Church as authentic visions and messages from Mary. The fountain is the sight of alleged miraculous cures.

But St. Bernadette, who died at an early age from tuberculosis of the bone, never availed herself of any miracles. She was not interested in them nor did she view herself as special because of the visions. When fellow Catholics asked her why she did not revisit the site of the miracle fountains at Lourdes, she responded as above with words she said Mary told her: "I cannot guarantee you happiness in this world, only in the next."

Again, I have no religious connection to this story and its validity is not the point. What is the point is the fairly normal response Bernadette gave about life. Happiness is not guaranteed for anyone, even so-called saints who see visions. Catholics don't believe it is. Jews don't either, and I am sure the same goes for atheists.

Normal people don't go around trying to show how happy their ideology or religion or convictions make them in life. Not everybody is happy. And if and when we are, we don't rush out and film ourselves being happy to show others. No, we share that happiness with people in the flesh so they can have happiness too--not to prove that our religion is normal.

In fact, I am more likely to believe that St. Bernadette had visions than believe stories from Jehovah's Witnesses who claim that Jehovah makes them happy. If a Catholic saint says happiness is not guaranteed in life, that makes more sense than people who dance around claiming that following the whims of the Governing Body does.

I would wash in the waters of Lourdes 10,000 times before I ever believe Jehovah's Witnesses are really happy.

9

Public Prayers - Scriptural?

by OverlappingGeneralizations in

something that has always been a pet peeve of mine- public prayers.

is that even scriptural?

i know many churches (along with the jws) do it.

CalebInFloroda

@Village Idiot

Actually my answer was cut short due to a technical problem I had on this end, so let me start again.

The Scriptures are filled with examples of approved public prayers, such as the prayer of Hannah (1 Samuel 1.9-28), the prayer of King Solomon at the dedication of the First Temple (1 Kings 8.22-61), and Ezra's dramatic display of prayerful contrition that moves the entire nation of Jews to repentance (Ezra 10.1-4). And it doesn't end there.

And let's not forget, the biggest book in the canon is the Book of Psalms, a collection of public prayers used by Jews and Catholics as such to this day.

Though as most of you know I am not a Christian, so I don't believe in the inspiration of the New Testament, Christians claim that the following texts are inspired of the Holy Spirit...and they include public prayers.

The Magnificat or Canticle of the Virgin Mary--Luke 1.46-45.

The Nunc Dimittis or Song of Simeon.--Luke 2.29-32.

Each time Jesus miraculously fed the crowds.--Matthew 14.19; Mark 6.41; Luke 9.16; John 6.11.

The public prayer of Jesus that was answered from heaven.--John 12.28.

So comparing the Scripture of Jesus from Matthew 6, and not forgetting the above texts from the Old Testament, is it being intellectually honest to say Jesus is contradicting the rest of the Scriptures or that Jesus is condemning public prayer?

Note the context:

"Be careful that you don’t practice your religion in front of people to draw their attention. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Whenever you give to the poor, don’t blow your trumpet as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets so that they may get praise from people. I assure you, that’s the only reward they’ll get. But when you give to the poor, don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing so that you may give to the poor in secret. Your Father who sees what you do in secret will reward you.

When you pray, don’t be like hypocrites. They love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners so that people will see them. I assure you, that’s the only reward they’ll get. But when you pray, go to your room, shut the door, and pray to your Father who is present in that secret place. Your Father who sees what you do in secret will reward you."--Matthew 6.1-6, Common English Bible, italics added.

If you notice Jesus is not condemning public prayer any more than he is condemning giving to the poor. What Jesus says is not to pray or give to the poor "like hypocrites." Hypocrites do so "in front of people to draw their attention" and to "get praise from people." If that is why people do things, Jesus said that is the reward they would get--and nothing more! But it isn't a condemnation of public prayers.

However, I do want to add that there is nothing in the Bible that says that Scriptures cannot contradict one another. Guess what? That was invented by the JWs and other Fundamentalist Christians. Because the Bible was never intended to be an exhaustive compendium of theology and religious doctrine, each of the books was written for different purposes. You will therefore find many contradictions within.

This creates a paradox for some Christians who attempt to excuse them away with complicated and illogical arguments. Yet this is not one of those cases. Public prayer is a staple of both Judaism and Christianity, especially since they are liturgically based religions. True, most JWs and even some exJWs have no idea what liturgy is and its importance to the history of both these religions and the shaping of the Scriptures themselves, but a simple review of the subject via the Internet should suffice to show that one of the main reasons Scriptures were collected was to use as public prayer texts.

9

Public Prayers - Scriptural?

by OverlappingGeneralizations in

something that has always been a pet peeve of mine- public prayers.

is that even scriptural?

i know many churches (along with the jws) do it.

CalebInFloroda

The Scriptures are filled with examples of approved public prayers.

20

If God exists ....

by iconoclastic in

if god exists, he must be a god of freedom.

because he has endowed us with free-will, and never interferes with it (as confirmed by our own experiences).

that means he wants everyone to make their choice and reap the fruits accordingly.

CalebInFloroda

Of course there are significant differences between the G-d of the Hebrews and the Christian God. In Western countries many (though not all) atheists are rejecting the Christian concept. To illustrate how different the two concepts are:

The Jewish G-d evolves as does the Jewish people’s understanding of G-d.
This is the opposite of the Christian view that their Trinity God does not change, is unchangeable, and has no need for change. It also allows Christians to claim as heretical anyone who wishes to introduce an evolved view of their God.

In Judaism, G-d is unknowable.
This is also very different from Christianity. Through Jesus Christ, say Christians, God can be understood. Jesus, they claim, is the perfect reflection of what God is. If you know Jesus then you know God.

To the Hebrews, G-d welcomes arguments from his servants.
Christians believe that God should be listened to and obeyed without question, but from Abraham onward Jews are known for their very unique relationship with G-d, which includes things like debating, bargaining, and like Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel for doing this), wrestling with G-d. This is why Jews are known as the children of “Israel” and not “Abraham.” A relationship with G-d is to be explored and dealt with like any other relationship for Jews, with no need or desire to surrender just because the other person you are dealing with is your Creator.

G-d is…
While we just acknowledged that the Creator is “unknowable” to Jews, there are few things G-d “is” that can even rub Christians and others the wrong way.

To Jews, G-d is not recognized as a “he” or “she.” In fact the Hebrew pronoun for G-d, which unfortunately gets rendered as “he” in English in many Gentile translations, is actually a neuter pronoun. That is why you often hear Jews say “G-d does things on G-d’s own terms” instead of “God does things on his own terms.”
Some Jews believe that G-d is the literal Universe, while other Jews believe G-d contains the Universe while at the same time being infinitely greater. Some say that all conflicting concepts about G-d can be true at the same time. But in the end all agree that this does not change the fact that in the end G-d is both ultimately unknowable and even unnamable.

To Jews, G-d is not necessarily perfect, complete, or all-loving.
This may shock many, but it is true. Some Jewish theology suggests that G-d created humanity in order to challenge G-d to become better at being just, loving, and perfect. This is also the reason why the concept of G-d has changed over the centuries among Jews. The ideas presented in Biblical narrative, which Christians view unchangeable, Jews consider to be sometimes primitive and infantile and incomplete views of G-d. The idea of G-d being merely a monotheistic imageless Deity is “so 4000 years ago!” G-d has acted in ways in the past that G-d would never act like today or tomorrow. And Jews once held ideas about G-d that they would never accept as applicable today.

Jews can even be humanistic or secular which can include atheist and agnostic convictions or responses to the Jewish G-d concept. That is one thing that cannot be compatible with Christianity.

Disclaimer: The above is in no way intended to suggest that any who currently claim to be atheists are not because they have not fully reviewed what other religious concepts completely entail. On the contrary, the above is meant to demonstrate how the Christian view has often dominated the Jewish view to the point that many reject the Jewish concept of the Creator without realizing there are striking differences.

15

"--want to survive Armageddon?-- the start partaking--

by prologos in

jesus: the gt will be cut short for the sake of the "chosen ones" the sealed anointed).

unless those days are cut short no flesh will be saved.

how can you be saved without being a chosen one, be a chosen one without partaking?.

CalebInFloroda

It's true.

All Christians partook of the bread and wine of communion, especially at the start. Later there developed those who did it annually, and even later that was simplified to receiving only the host in the form of bread or tincture, but all Christians partook of "communion."

This is based on the fact that all Jews partake of the matzos (unleavened bread) and wine at a Passover Seder. All who are redeemed partake. Those who do not are cut off. Christians could not be Christians unless they partook of communion.--1 Corinthians 5.7, 8.

What the Jehovah's Witnesses do is totally weird. Even atheist and agnostic Jews that I know get together with their families on Passover and partake. I don't understand how "not partaking" can be a sign that you "belong" to anything. If you are going to sit on your chair and just watch, don't come. I wouldn't let you come to my Seder and just sit and watch. Even if you are not a Jew, you have to join in. The Witness thing is so anti-Biblical, anti- Christian, anti-Jewish that it is ignorance.

If you get invited to a Memorial and you believe in Christ, you had better eat and drink. Any host would kick you out for insulting them by not eating.

1

How does God measure up to the definition of love at 1st Corinthians?

by purrpurr in

we all know the famous scripture of 13:4-8. the wt uses it to show how jw's ought to behave and think.

it's like a golden standard.. but i was thinking, how does god himself measure up to this standard?

in the bible it clearly states that god is jealous.

CalebInFloroda

Jews don't believe that the G-d of Abraham and Sarah is perfect in love, not yet anyway. Some of our theology suggests that the reason we exist is so G-d could learn how to love better. Humanity evolves, and if humanity was created in G-d's image, why doesn't G-d evolve as well?

It is Christianity that defines G-d as "all-loving," "unchangeable," "perfect." It isn't that Jews don't also see this as part of the entire G-d concept they hold in their theology. It is just far more advanced and dimensional than that.

One of the texts that Jews use as the basis for this theology is Numbers 15 where a man is put do death by stoning for picking up wood on the Sabbath. G-d not only demands stoning but the Jewish people themselves carry out the judgment.

Think about it. There was no previous law stated that the man could have avoided if he knew about it. The law is promulgated after the man gathers the wood, as well as the penalty. It was a cruel and unforgiving judgment, and Judaism recognizes this, so much so that we never forgot it and made it a part of our Law.

Today things are different in regard to G-d and Jews. Today such an action by the Jewish people would be unjust (though this doesn't mean there aren't some among us Jews who believe we should be as unbending with those we view as enemies). The Jewish concept of G-d is that we have evolved because G-d has evolved, and that neither of us engages in stoning people or demanding such stoning. We've grown up, but we also acknowledge we've both grown up together--and sometimes out of very dark pasts.

Jews reject the simplistic idea of a "perfect" G-d. They view such concepts as infantile, dysfunctional and immature, much like the idealistic image one has of their parents that gets crushed by reality as they become adults themselves. Who makes up these false images of their parents? We do. Our parents are not to blame for failing to live up to our childish expectations, and neither is G-d (though Christians would have you think differently).

Like Moses, we feel we each have something to offer in making G-d more complete, even changing his mind from doing something. (Exodus 32.14) In the Jewish view we DO NOT "LISTEN AND OBEY." We argue, debate, challenge, and wrestle with G-d. (Genesis 18.22-33; Jonah 4; Genesis 32.23-31) We are indeed in a covenant together, us and G-d, but we are in it together.

We as humans have a drive to challenge ourselves at times, to become more than what we are now, to refuse to be satisfied in our current state. True, not everyone has these drives, but many do. If humans have them, then why not G-d if we are made in the image of our Creator?

69

Why Me?

by John Aquila in

do you ever wonder why out of all the witnesses, you are the one that woke up?

i wonder many times why me.

i know many men and women that are much, much better persons than me; either they are much smarter, more humble, kinder, more successful, or just better persons all around.

CalebInFloroda

@done4good

You misunderstand.

While we are agreeing that the days and/or years the person remaining in denial are not periods of "cognitive dissonance," I was stating that some others have made the mistake of saying that these long periods of being in denial are "cognitive dissonance" in themselves.

Long periods of denial can be caused by cognitive dissonance, but they aren't the same thing.

As for my pastor friend, she did not dig in deeper, she let go of it as soon as she had a moment to herself to look at the matter. The days following 9/11 were not days of "refusal to let go" as she compartmentalized the situation to avoid confronting the cognitive dissonance. But after about two weeks she had time to herself, discussed it with friends like me, and discarded these views as illogical when she could. Before it was not possible.

Many people had to compartmentalize to get through those days. Rescue workers at the scenes of destruction had to compartmentalize their fears and frustration and just work as if on "automatic" like my pastor friend. Most didn't have the luxury of stopping tand dealing with their situation. Some stayed in this mode for quite some time because that is what they had to do.

This is not the same as denial as one does in an ideology when faced with facts that conflict with one's thoughts. These people were moved by a sense of duty to complete their jobs which they vowed to perform. Rescue workers consisted of police, firefighters, and others like clergy who had to do their jobs without thinking of themselves.

My friend had to selflessly think of others for days before stopping to consider her own self and struggles. This was not "digging in deeper." This was done out of her duty to serve the public. What Witnesses do is a selfish choice to avoid dealing with the cognitive dissonance. What my friend did was very different.

But to clarify, my statements were mainly directed at the way others have been using the term. Your use of "collective cognitive dissonance" implied that an ideology thrives on this, wherein the reality is that they thrive because they don't deal with it or take steps to avoid situations that cause the dissonance in the first place. That made me feel I should add something lest someone make the mistake as to what this dissonance was.