Posts by CalebInFloroda

43

How a Gay Jewish Boy from New England Came to Be and Leave the JWs (and what he did next)

by CalebInFloroda in

born in cambridge, ma to a liberal couple that escaped the conservative south, my parents raised me better than to become a jehovahs witness.

funny thing was they got mixed up in it first.. while that is a story for another time, i myself had to go along as the third of five children in my family.

dads job transferred him to texas and my mom worked fulltime herself, but eventually we found ourselves drinking the kool-aid of ambiguity intolerance and full-fledge belief that the bible was literal fact and that salvation was found only by those who were smart enough to enter the confines of the watchtower.. its weird how many people claim they fear children raised by two gay parents will grow up to be gay.

CalebInFloroda

No problem. I have a friend who thinks everyone is gay. I keep telling him not everyone appreciates him doing so.

Thanks for the welcome and apology, DJS. Water under the Watchtower bridge...but don't ever call me str8 again! LOL

84

1975 failed prediction?

by Garrett in

jw
friends

heyo,.

your favorite garrett here.

so, i'm about to have an elder tell me allll about the failed 1975 doctrine.

CalebInFloroda

In the town I grew up in, in South Texas, a few Witnesses got together and created a bumper sticker that read: JEHOVAH is coming! They posted these things all over town, on bus benches, phone booths, newspaper stands (and a few cars).

They showed up beginning late 1974. I remember noting how the black lettering had faded and the white background had oddly turned a yellowish pink by 1977 when my brothers and I passed one by on the way to see the first Star Wars film that summer so long ago.

Yep, they did indeed preach and believe this. They deny it because most of them today weren't there.

43

How a Gay Jewish Boy from New England Came to Be and Leave the JWs (and what he did next)

by CalebInFloroda in

born in cambridge, ma to a liberal couple that escaped the conservative south, my parents raised me better than to become a jehovahs witness.

funny thing was they got mixed up in it first.. while that is a story for another time, i myself had to go along as the third of five children in my family.

dads job transferred him to texas and my mom worked fulltime herself, but eventually we found ourselves drinking the kool-aid of ambiguity intolerance and full-fledge belief that the bible was literal fact and that salvation was found only by those who were smart enough to enter the confines of the watchtower.. its weird how many people claim they fear children raised by two gay parents will grow up to be gay.

CalebInFloroda

As someone who still rubs shoulders with Bible scholars, I can tell you these two things they will all pretty much agree on. It may require some undoing the thinking you learned about the Bible, at least from the Watchtower.

1. Of course the Bible changed, numerous times with additions and expansions over the centuries...but until the canonization process. It is the state in which each of the books was finally found in upon declaring the text sacred that the additions stopped. The individual parts or earliest portions are not separately considered canon because the editorial process was considered part of how inspiration occurred by these ancient cultures. Isaiah, for instance, is written by at least four authors if not more. Only once together as one book or scroll is it officially recognized as a revelation to the Jews. But after this acceptance the books almost never changed, as the Dead Sea Scrolls illustrate.

2. Except for few exceptions like the NWT, so much of the text is now accessible that unless you forbid someone from looking it up and showing where something is badly rendered, all the major modern translations are about the same in standards of accuracy. Especially with the Internet you can't get away with much.

43

How a Gay Jewish Boy from New England Came to Be and Leave the JWs (and what he did next)

by CalebInFloroda in

born in cambridge, ma to a liberal couple that escaped the conservative south, my parents raised me better than to become a jehovahs witness.

funny thing was they got mixed up in it first.. while that is a story for another time, i myself had to go along as the third of five children in my family.

dads job transferred him to texas and my mom worked fulltime herself, but eventually we found ourselves drinking the kool-aid of ambiguity intolerance and full-fledge belief that the bible was literal fact and that salvation was found only by those who were smart enough to enter the confines of the watchtower.. its weird how many people claim they fear children raised by two gay parents will grow up to be gay.

CalebInFloroda

Born in Cambridge, MA to a liberal couple that escaped the Conservative South, my parents raised me better than to become a Jehovah’s Witness. Funny thing was they got mixed up in it first.

While that is a story for another time, I myself had to go along as the third of five children in my family. Dad’s job transferred him to Texas and my mom worked fulltime herself, but eventually we found ourselves drinking the Kool-Aid of ambiguity intolerance and full-fledge belief that the Bible was literal fact and that salvation was found only by those who were “smart” enough to enter the confines of the Watchtower.

It’s weird how many people claim they fear children raised by two gay parents will grow up to be gay. They often never mention how two straight parents, a man and woman, manage to raise a gay son in the middle of other kids who turn out straight themselves. Despite the “validity” of that argument in the minds of some, my faithful Witness parents had a gay son, me. They never took me to a Gay Pride parade or played Cher on the stereo nor did they take me to even one musical play or let me pick out the drapes—and not that I ever wanted to do any of that stuff. Still I was definitely homosexual. Always knew I had these feelings since I can remember and have never been able to stir up the others.

But guess what? I was a good Witness boy. Despite a few crushes on some friends I had growing up at my local Kingdom Hall, I was a by-the-book Witness. I took it all very seriously. That Kool-Aid we all drank? I was the one stirring the pot and serving the line we all stood in to get our allotted dose.

MENSA, not Mensies

The problems between me and “Jehovah” of the Watchtower began in my teenage years when my grades suddenly slipped. I went from straight-A student to F. When my worried parents tried to find the problem, my school started testing me. Eventually they suggested I be given a WAIS testing by a (forbidden) psychologist. My school teachers and counselor wouldn’t explain why, but when they explained that only a doctor of psychology can give the test (and assured my Witness parents that a psychologist was not the same as psychiatrist), my folks consented.

No one told me what was happening, and only later would I learn that the WAIS was an IQ test for adults and older adolescents. I myself was at the point where my dad had recently given me the “birds and the bees” talk, and I told him I liked boys (well, I more asked him what would happen to me if I did like boys). While it was interesting that they were willing to take me to psychologist or even a psychiatrist for that, it was odd that here I was in a strange but very neat office facing a series of puzzle-like tests for what took an entire day.

So when the doctor discussed the results of the test and what it meant and mentioned MENSA, my mother later told me that she at first thought he said “mensies” and was about to faint from embarrassment that this unheard of test had revealed that her son “had gay.”

“Nope,” the doctor assured them. “But he is a genius, especially with languages.”

While MENSA was possible it was, of course, out of the question. And my parents, being faithful JWs to the core, followed the direction of the Faithful and Discreet Slave Class (it was a “class of people” them, not just the Governing Body) and ignored the pleas of teachers, educators, and the doctors to let me start college right away. Instead I was allowed to take a GED and aced it, of course.

But when you just turned 16 and don’t have anymore school to look forward to and too young to be hired for anything, what’s a secretly gay, ethnically Jewish, Jehovah’s Witness, what are you to do?

I Almost Drowned

They were over 40,000 people present when I was baptized at the Houston, Texas “Integrity Keepers Convention” of Jehovah’s Witnesses on July 27, 1985 in the Astrodome. My mouth opened when they dunked me and as they pulled me up I got a gulp of pool water that almost drowned me. The brother who ignored my gasps as I tried to stand and cry for help at the same time just smiled as he pat me on the back and said: “You just got a little water in you. You probably needed your evil insides cleaned out for Jehovah as well.”

But that was not the only time I almost drowned as a Jehovah’s Witnesses. The real drowning came next as the Reasoning from the Scriptures book was released, and a genius teenage mind got the stupid idea of looking up everything that was been cited and quoted.

I obtained the Society’s Kingdom Interlinear translation, taught myself Greek (with the help of cassette tapes I got on loan from my library but shamefully never returned—oops!). When I used my new-found knowledge of the language on a Bible study/return visit with an elder I was out in service with, the elder laughed at me and told me to stop fooling around. He would only later end up apologizing once he learned through another source that I could actually read and pronounce the language very well.

And because I could do that, I almost immediately learned that John 1.1 was not rendered correctly in the New World Translation. The silly argument about “anarthrous nouns” that littered the Watchtower publication in the 1980s was only half true. The last “theos” in John 1.1 is anarthrous, but so is practically every other occurrence of “theos” in that chapter and most of John, occurrences which are always rendered as “God” and never “god.”

When I asked elders to explain this I got the silliest replies, one of which was: “The last ‘theos’ is spelled differently than the one before it, ‘theon,’ meaning they both can’t be the same word.” When I explained that this is due to Greek being an inflectional language (the prefix and suffix of nouns will constantly change depending on the syntax but the root meaning isn’t changed), he just looked at me with disdain.

Unbeknownst to me Hebrew came natural to me. I didn’t know I was Jewish (not a real Jew—another long story) for a long time because growing up in Texas made me think I was just another Latin American. My family spoke something I took for granted was Spanish but my folks never, ever would go to a Spanish-speaking congregation or meeting. I once attempted to take a Spanish class and was laughed at by my Spanish teacher who said: “You speak the Spanish of the lower, ill-bred class.” As a result I dropped that class for wood shop.

It turned out that we spoke something called “Ladino.” This language is to Sephardic Jews what Yiddish is to Ashkenazi Jews (you will have to look up these terms if you can’t tell your Jews apart). Ladino is Spanish mixed with Arabic and, guess what, Hebrew! So when I started speaking Hebrew and asking more questions is when the real drowning started.

Burn the Witch! (It Knows Too Much)

It became apparent to me that other Bible translations that the Watchtower would criticize were not incorrect at all. It also was too clear that the New World Translation, while accurate in most places, was dishonest in all the controversial renderings—and atrocious in its renderings even when it was not wrong (this is not well-versed English, I remember telling others).

My learning of the languages caused suspicious by others in the congregation who began telling the elders that I was a liar and just looking for attention by making up stories that I could read these languages. At the time I was learning Ecclesiastical Latin and was being poked fun at too when I tried to prove it (it doesn’t always sound like what is written like other forms of Latin do).

So I got in trouble with the elders who felt they had to hold special meetings with me to see if I was fading away from “The Truth.” They would share a prepared little presentation with a few Scriptures with me and then ask me if I was having doubts that I was in the one and only true religion. I didn’t have doubts then, just questions about the NWT. But I assured them they were not the same. These meetings happened repeatedly and made my parents sad as we were marked as bad association—because I had a high IQ of all things.

And that’s when the horrible loneliness sunk in. My parents separated due to the pressure, my father becoming a drunk and blaming me during drunken rants that I was the cause of all the family’s problems because I was gay and ‘thought I was so smart!’ With my family against me and the congregation, and the fact that I was denying my sexuality by not even dating another male (I wouldn’t even let myself get too close to another male friend out of fear it would become something I couldn’t control), I felt I could no longer breathe.

So I left. I would not formally disassociate myself until 1999, but I left about 10 years before that. I would only later learn that the elders were close to having me disfellowshipped for apostasy because I was studying non-Witness materials and teaching what I learned from them to others as fact (the books I was using were called language guides and the JPS Hebrew text of the Old Testament—evil right?).

From Atheist to Philologist (What the Hell is a Philologist?)

Supporting myself as an IT professional, I decided to hate religion, the Bible, and especially the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I decided to try the “gay life,” moved to Atlanta, Georgia where a large gay population already existed, and started trying everything I could. I was a bit naïve, no very naïve, and so could never tell when someone was flirting with me or what and had no idea how to really have gay sex, so it was a very clumsy time in my life. I was very cute, however, so many guys overlooked a lot on the basis that I was a bit of what some called “eye-candy.” (I would learn the meaning of that term only after age was starting to steal my youthful looks away.)

I also joined a group of rational thinkers, but it didn’t last long. I took to them like I did the JWs when I was the one passing out the Kool-Aid for others to drink, and this was pointed out to me by the person who would later become my best friend (and still is to this day), Ted (not his real name).

Ted pointed out to me that my rationale against religion seemed more a projection of hatred than it did reason. I found that insulted and argued with him for an hour, almost punching him. He would approach me at a later meeting and we eventually got to speaking peacefully with one another. He introduced me to the term “ambiguity intolerance,” and I suddenly learned something new that applied to me and explained much of the Jehovah’s Witness experience.

While I won’t argue that the Witnesses are a cult, I have a theory that they are more of an impromptu ideology. They are like ISIS and the Imperial Japanese of World War II all wrapped up in a mixture of Adventist goo. They are the only ones who are right, all others must be converted or destroyed, and in the meantime all non-JWs are subject to ridicule and hatred. In the meantime we are taught to compartmentalize all things into two compartments: the Jehovah-Box or the Box of Satan’s Things. There is no in-between. Ambiguity is not tolerated, I must be right, all others wrong, and all others must be exposed to what I know.

Ted also made me realize that my gift for languages was being wasted and introduced me to the world of teaching (he is a professor himself) and learning how to be a real atheist.

While I did not remain atheist in the end, I did get the education my parents wouldn’t allow me to have. I learned theology, etymology, studied meteorology and finally chose to go into teaching philology.

Ted is still my best friend (and so are many from the now-defunct rational thinkers group that used to meet on Wednesdays and bank holidays), and I have even been consulted during the production of a popular interconfessional Bible translation that is now on the market.

And I’m openly gay and Jewish (I’m considered by some to be messianic because of my ancestral connection to the Nazarenes).

And there you go. I don’t oppose atheist views and even fight for their rights when I can.

For example, it’s not fair that I can say anything religious I want and put large menorahs around town each December without the slightest whimper from anyone but as soon as one of my atheist friends puts a billboard up that merely asks theists to at least consider using a little reason, why does that cause a ruckus? I’m worshiping burning bushes and chanukiahs they stay miraculously lit, and they are the crazy ones?

So there you have it. I thought I would share a little bit about myself to say HI. I’ve been insulted by both a theist and a non-theist on this board and almost left but then thought, hey they don’t know me. Maybe walls would come down if they learn a little more about me.

Oh, I have since come to appreciate Cher and musical theatre too.

41

Jehovah kicks a puppy

by Simon in

technically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.

it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?

(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).

CalebInFloroda

To accuse me of joining up and partnering with someone I don't known and lying about it--if I did that about you, wouldn't that be calling your character into question? And as a gay man I do find it a bit of an attack on my character to automatically associate me with a heterosexual union.

I think your arguments are valid and need to be voiced. I was just presenting counter ones. I didn't expect this type of response and will leave it there.

But I do hope it gets proved how wrong you are about me having connections or knowing this other person and that one day you learn that you were attacking the character of another human being.

I no longer fell welcomed here, dear moderators and fellow posters.

41

Jehovah kicks a puppy

by Simon in

technically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.

it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?

(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).

CalebInFloroda

Well, first off DJS, as I am a gay man that would be very odd for me to couple up with a woman.

Second, if my IP address is checked by those who own this site I am sure it can be verified we aren't anywhere near one another.

And last, why not stop the character attacks and continue with your own arguments or present counter ones we can all benefit from. I think you raised excellent points to begin with which is why I added my own.

41

Jehovah kicks a puppy

by Simon in

technically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.

it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?

(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).

CalebInFloroda

And I write these things in total respect of those who hold separate views from me, DJS.

I have many companions who hold various beliefs, theist, non-theist, etc. None of them would I disrespect by name calling or teasing for just adding their own view or opinion to a discussion.

I don't not believe that the information I added is necessarily correct or the one and only view, just additional information to the discussion. I wasn't aware that such was unwelcomed or automatically circular reasoning or a reason to make odd "But Caleb, it is sweet that you came to the rescue of Ms. Caleb. I like that." comments.

41

Jehovah kicks a puppy

by Simon in

technically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.

it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?

(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).

CalebInFloroda

I actually wrote that "the satan" is in reference to someone Jesus believed was very real. The term, I stated, was borrowed from Old Testament mythology. The New Testament treats the Devil as a very real being, but it isn't the same being again as that used in parables like the protoevangelium or Job.

The term "haSatan" in Hebrew does not describe an evil being. It simply means "the adversary." In Job "the satan" (haSatan) is someone who has access to heaven, asks God for permission to act, and even obeys God in following through. This is clearly not the same hell-bound, anti-God creature Jesus teaches about or is found in New Testament literature.

The character is connected, however, and is often used of other people. For instance, Peter is called by the same term when he suggests that Jesus' passion prediction is untrue. (Matthew 16:23) Peter is clearly not the same as Satan the Devi or possessed, but he is being adversarial. The word for anyone who is acting in the position of adversary is "satan" in Hebrew and Greek. The word has three meanings, not limited to a so-called spirit being that lives in the comical multi-level world devised by Dante Alighieri.

The Christians who wrote the New Testament books believe the Devil was a real person, but they didn't believe that all "satans" in the Old Testament or people who acted adversarial where one and the same.

41

Jehovah kicks a puppy

by Simon in

technically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.

it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?

(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).

CalebInFloroda

In simplest form, DJS, critical scholarship and theologians believe the term "the satan" is borrowed from Old Testament legends by Jesus for a real entity. The fact that an actual entity is given the name used in mythology doesn't mean the entity is really the same person.

Just because you have a child and name the child "Luke Skywalker" doesn't mean the child is the same person as the fictional character in the Lucas opera.

Midrash is a technique that is employed in the development of the spirit entity known as the devil. The fact that midrash is employed of itself suggests that what is being done is linking two separate things, in this case mythology with what Jesus taught was real.

By the way, just because I am stating this should not be confused with what I personally believe. I'm just adding to the conversation from the standpoint of someone who teaches this stuff to students. I personally don't agree with much that modern religion does or the way many of its adherents act as a result of adhering to their belief systems.

41

Jehovah kicks a puppy

by Simon in

technically incorrect, but effectively he does .... if we're to believe the genesis account the serpent deceived eve and made her eat of the tree of knowledge.

it all went pear shaped from there on in, although most people believe it was an apple (boom tish).. but anyway .... either it was a literal serpent that could talk on it's own behalf or, as people typically believe, it was satan who was the puppet master and possessing the creature.. the first raises all sorts of questions that contradict the whole bible narrative (another creature that could reason, talk, debate existence and law etc...) so let's go with "the satan theory".. how does got react to his 'perfect' creation immediately being completely imperfect as soon as he takes it out of the box?

(he's like 0 for 4 ... satan, serpent, woman, man ... all break his rules).

CalebInFloroda

While I cannot speak directly for Hold-Me, I can state that none of the texts DJS cites state that the snake from Genesis 3 was held to be a factual and historical account.

Also, Christian theology through the centuries shows that the belief in “Satan the Devil” was a new revelation from Jesus of Nazareth who connected the symbols of the adversaries of Scripture to evil unseen forces battling against humankind. This is a technique known as “midrash” which is still used today by Jewish rabbis. It is a retelling and resetting of Scriptural stories, whether true or false, in the light of current thought. Word play is heavily employed in this technique when speaking in the original Hebrew, and an etymological methodology must be employed when attempting to reconstruct the meanings therein. Face-value readings are never implied or allowed in midrash, especially in the face of a doctrine that was clearly in developing stages in the first century.

Around the time the New Testament canon was being settled, St. Gregory Nazianzen, working from and building upon current Christian theology about “the Fall,” taught that the narrative in Genesis 3 was symbolic of something far more complex. The death of the characters in the play symbolize God’s killing of death, he explained. This didn't contradict the then accept doctrine of the Evil One now in full stature in the Christian religion, but it does show that their belief that the Devil was real and symbolized from the protoevangelium did not rely on the symbols being facts.

Similarly, the tales of George Washington chopping down a cherry tree, the mythical details of the midnight ride of Paul Revere, and the various tall-tales which practically deify Abraham Lincoln do not keep thinking and reasoning Americans from remaining patriotic and supporting their country. All cultures have their mythology, but those myths are used as transports for essential truths important to the culture that devises them. George Washington may not have chopped down the cherry tree, but the truth in the myth is still real: he was a man of high character. The fact that these stories are just "fairy tales" doesn't make people pack up and leave America or abandon democracy. Americans still build upon these legends to create realities in their lives regardless.

In the same manner, while New Testament theology builds upon the midrash of “the satan” figure as a literal spirit entity that is bent on causing more than a little trouble for humans, it isn’t saying that the literal figure makes some of the narrative dramas fact. Nor does it mean that the use of “the satan” from Old Testament sources via midrash implies that “the satan” in places like Job is the same figure as the Satan of New Testament texts.

The above isn’t new theology or new views on Scripture and the devil either. It is theology that the uneducated leaders of the Watchtower ignore and keep from their adherents. While I don’t expect that atheists have to be totally educated in an academic approach to Scripture, these very few points should at least make one pause before projecting the naïve Watchtower approach we once fatally trusted in to what scholars and theologians of Scripture have taught for centuries. They are very much not the same thing.