Posts by CalebInFloroda

46

Wish You Knew? Ask a Jew!

by CalebInFloroda in

because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.

that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.

CalebInFloroda

Dear C0ntr013r,

I was merely trying to answer your questions by getting you ready for what might not be a bunch of satisfying answers.

Judaism doesn't always come with satisfying answers, like our friends at the Watchtower feel must be supplied. So in our previous conversation I thought I should just mention that your questions showed a need to be prepared for Jewish ambiguity ( a big no-no in the JW world, as you are aware). Since I have no idea where you are coming from, I stated what I did without implication that I can read your mind and know what you are really thinking inside.

Becuase if I could do that, I would set up a little shop with a flashing red neon sign that reads: PALM READER, TAROT CARDS, INCOME TAX, NOTARY PUBLIC.

And I don't know if you are from Western society, but most people who speak English and ask questions about Jews are. We only make up 0.2% of the earth's population, so I was just assuming you might be.

As to your question about life having contradictions and ambiguities...well, if you haven't noticed any yet, child just wait! They will slap you in the face soon enough. And the sad thing is you won't know what hit you when they do because it is all contradictory and ambiguous. Life can be mysterious and have unknowns, even from a scientific standpoint, and Judaism embraces this facet of life. It even makes it interesting.

Lastly I do not always have a personal view or opinion about matters that Judaism does. Jews aren't forced to ascribe to beliefs like some religions. What you do is more important than what you believe. So while you may want to know what my personal views are, if I don't have one I can't give one. I don't hold much basis in my own opinions anyway. That is why often I will give a more educated or academic answer. I also don't care for personal opinions. I would rather have a conclusion based on the application of the scientific method.

But Judaism is less a religion like the Watchtower and more of a cultural expression of spirituality. It is linked to a people, a tribe, and it's rituals and traditions. Often there are no definitive answers like the JWs offer for everything due to the fact that Jews aren't always looking for one.

46

Wish You Knew? Ask a Jew!

by CalebInFloroda in

because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.

that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.

CalebInFloroda

This question comes from a long-time listener C0ntr013r from Kukamunga, Texas who catches our show on WUGG Radio, the Lite FM home of the "Hard Rock and Rap Ansa to Soft Rock Muzak."

Dear Jewish person aka

CalebInFloroda

I am a very curious person who want to understand and know. I hope you don't think that I was trying to find faults in your religion. Nor that I am trying learning more because I want to convert to Judaism.

I simply ask because I have a inquiring mind and I apply logic, critical thinking and reason to it all, to better understand the world I live in. I guess that is why the JWs could not keep me trapped forever :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

You are probably right, I don't know more about Jews then what I learned in school. I know some of your customs, holidays, rules etc. What I don't know is why... Why do they; do, think, reason the way they do. You have given me great insight into the "Jewish mind" and I find it fascinating.

It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions.

Since I am not asking the question from my own point of view, but asking from different angels and views, many of which contradict each other, the questions are going to contradict each other.

I sometimes confuse people I discuss with because they think that I believe the view I am arguing from, when I am simply exploring the idea from another angel or belief system.

One way of thinking about it is; I am trying to understand your beliefs, not compare them to my own.

Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure.

Are you implying that i lack these things? I don't consider myself atheist, I know most atheist are agnostic. I consider myself "just" agnostic if that makes any sense.

It might seem like I am very interested in God/Judaism but the truth is that I don't think any more about those things than any other topic, I am simply curious.

you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.

Now, that is something I don't understand :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Btw, why do you think I am a westerner?

And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.

Do you think life can have logical contradiction, if so. How?

This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers.

The answers themselves are not the most interesting, I am more interested in how you think and reason, what is the thought process behind etc.

Maybe my motives where unclear and I apologize if that is important.

But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.

Don't get me wrong, just because I don't understand you reasoning in some areas does not mean that I have not learned a great deal from you. I probably need to research Judaism to understand where you are coming from, maybe some of it is culture and have to be experienced first hand. Not just read about on a forum.

Imo, sharing perspectives is how we grow as humans.

Lastly I would like to share I saying I came up with when I wrote this reply, I think it kind off fits:

Once you understand how someone thinks, you will be able to think like them.
/C0ntr013r

If you want to continue to "educate" me in your views I am happy to learn. But if you don't find it "fruitful" that is okay too :smile:

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

oppostate...

You too wound up about things and need to chilax. You are splitting hairs and reading things into my comments that are not there and far from my intentions.

I understand you may got some hating to do, and I'm okay with that. Go ahead, send it my way. But you got me all wrong. Not sure what I did to get you upset, but so sorry.

I have another thread so people can spout all they hate about me for being a Jew, a gay man, and or being circumcised and loving cream-filled pastries too much called WISH YOU KNEW? ASK A JEW! Feel free to bring it all there.

But in the end I am not here to challenge you or anyone, just trying to give an additional viewpoint to counter that stubborn JW theology as it don't come out with plain soap and water like most stains do. If I am not welcome please tell me to leave and I promise this boy will dance out like Gloria Gayner!

46

Wish You Knew? Ask a Jew!

by CalebInFloroda in

because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.

that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.

CalebInFloroda

Because on another thread questions about just what the hell Jews believe kept taking us off topic, I decided to start this new one. That's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

I will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: I do not take myself very seriously. So expect some Jewish humor stuck between the lines here and there.

It would be best to ask questions as they pertain to views in contrast with the Watchtower as that is why we are all here, but general questions are also welcome.

For those who wish to insult me or otherwise sling anti-Semitic comments my way, please take a place at the back of the line and wait your turn. There are some skin heads, racists, terrorists and some really nice folks from the Westboro Baptist Church that have been waiting very patiently and are ahead of you.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

I will start a new thread called "Wish you knew? Ask a Jew." I will start it tonight and try to get through all your questions by tomorrow. Someone just brought donuts. That means I'm gonna be busy for the next couple of minutes until I can find the bottom of this here box.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@C0ntr013r

I think you are also getting the wrong idea from my replies as I don't think you are arguing with me or some of things you mention.

Since your questions seemed more aimed at Judaism or my personal views than the main subject of this thread, how about making a new thread of just sending me a PM to discuss these things at your pace and as fully as you wish? Either is fine with me.

But I would rather stick to one subject per thread, and for this thread it is about how JW theology is often more than lacking.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@Viviane

That's pretty true.

I also liked your comment on another thread where you said that you think G-d is a big di@k. That would explain a lot about me as a gay Jewish man as I have an affinity for both.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@oppostate

I don't believe Christianity is pagan. It's origins are Jewish.

And I've never quoted from the Jewish Encylopedia. In fact I can't remember ever using that as a resource.

But the rest you have written may be right. I will leave it to the others here and my Creator to decide if I am a hypocrite.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@James Mixon

The Torah is not intended as a history book. Thus its narrative is not restricted to what is read at first blush. Therefore whether the 40 years is literal or not is not as much a concern to me as are the experiences of my people during their sojourn in the Sinai wilderness.

The point is not the time they spent in the desert but how they changed themselves and the course of Jewish history. The lesson is that we can all change ourselves for the better even when things are not ideal around us. Living in a world that may be a "wasteland" is no excuse for not attempting to become better humans, for not treating others well, or for complaining.

Most Jews are more concerned with this than questions about the actual years. As a result some of us feel the 40 years were literal and some don't. Either is acceptable but not as important as the real lessons in my opinion.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

CalebInFloroda

@C0ntr013r

I appreciate the questions, really I do.

Even though you don’t notice it, there seems to be something in your questions that is suggestive of Christian logistics. It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions. I’m glad you’re asking, but to understand you will have to let go. It will actually help you understand the following answers.

Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure. Like the American in my joke above, outside of this board they probably don’t go around thinking about G-d. To understand and appreciate the atheist one has to understand this as a constant. And one has to accept that their identity doesn’t stem from their not being a god. Their identity merely consists of this facet, which may be a very unimportant one for them on their list of convictions.

You have to do the same with Jews and Judaism. You have to accept Jews not from your perspective, but from that of a Jew. Like the way we read from right to left and place a headcovering on our head when we pray instead of remove one’s headcovering, you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.

Why not speak the Divine Name? What is stopping me from picking and choosing things from Scripture to follow or forsake? How do I unbind myself from the literal interpretation from Scripture? Why can a prophet like Jesus not be the Messiah? Why do things in Judaism seem so contradictory?

All you questions are answered with one simple answer: That’s just the way it is in Judaism.

Some of the reasons are use of logic. Some of the answers lie in how Judaism works. Others are bound to cultural constructs. And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.

It takes a long time to un-think like a Westerner or a Gentile and turn your thinking to naturally flow like an Easterner and Jew. It won’t make sense overnight or with a simple answer because it requires an approach that let’s go of what you are familiar with, what is making you ask questions. Once you learn it you will have other questions, of course, but that’s the way things are.

This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers. It’s complex because life is complex. It’s ambiguous because, again, that’s what life can be and often. JWs have a religion that is made up because they can’t deal with life and it’s lack of easy answers, it’s complexities, it’s ambiguities. Jews and atheists and agnostics often find more in common and mutual respect because of our approach. There are even crossovers like Jewish Humanists, and like I mentioned many atheist Gentiles who enjoy sharing in Jewish ritual. If you are really looking for answers about Judaism itself you might want to check out some books or websites. I will gladly help point the way, but I am not writing this information or am here to make converts or change people. But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.

We welcome everybody but we’re not in the business of proselytizing. We accept people as they are on their own terms and our religion teaches us that this is how we find the greatest gifts of G-d and from life. I want my friends to be Jewish and Christian and atheist and agnostic and straight and gay and Gentile and Muslim and etc., etc. And I want them to know I accept, love, and support them as they are.