Wish You Knew? Ask a Jew!

by CalebInFloroda 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  CalebInFloroda

  Because on another thread questions about just what the hell Jews believe kept taking us off topic, I decided to start this new one. That's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.

  I will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: I do not take myself very seriously. So expect some Jewish humor stuck between the lines here and there.

  It would be best to ask questions as they pertain to views in contrast with the Watchtower as that is why we are all here, but general questions are also welcome.

  For those who wish to insult me or otherwise sling anti-Semitic comments my way, please take a place at the back of the line and wait your turn. There are some skin heads, racists, terrorists and some really nice folks from the Westboro Baptist Church that have been waiting very patiently and are ahead of you.
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  CalebInFloroda

  This question comes from a long-time listener C0ntr013r from Kukamunga, Texas who catches our show on WUGG Radio, the Lite FM home of the "Hard Rock and Rap Ansa to Soft Rock Muzak."

  Dear Jewish person aka

  CalebInFloroda

  I am a very curious person who want to understand and know. I hope you don't think that I was trying to find faults in your religion. Nor that I am trying learning more because I want to convert to Judaism.

  I simply ask because I have a inquiring mind and I apply logic, critical thinking and reason to it all, to better understand the world I live in. I guess that is why the JWs could not keep me trapped forever

  You are probably right, I don't know more about Jews then what I learned in school. I know some of your customs, holidays, rules etc. What I don't know is why... Why do they; do, think, reason the way they do. You have given me great insight into the "Jewish mind" and I find it fascinating.

  It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions.

  Since I am not asking the question from my own point of view, but asking from different angels and views, many of which contradict each other, the questions are going to contradict each other.

  I sometimes confuse people I discuss with because they think that I believe the view I am arguing from, when I am simply exploring the idea from another angel or belief system.

  One way of thinking about it is; I am trying to understand your beliefs, not compare them to my own.

  Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure.

  Are you implying that i lack these things? I don't consider myself atheist, I know most atheist are agnostic. I consider myself "just" agnostic if that makes any sense.

  It might seem like I am very interested in God/Judaism but the truth is that I don't think any more about those things than any other topic, I am simply curious.

  you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.

  Now, that is something I don't understand

  Btw, why do you think I am a westerner?

  And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.

  Do you think life can have logical contradiction, if so. How?

  This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers.

  The answers themselves are not the most interesting, I am more interested in how you think and reason, what is the thought process behind etc.

  Maybe my motives where unclear and I apologize if that is important.

  But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.

  Don't get me wrong, just because I don't understand you reasoning in some areas does not mean that I have not learned a great deal from you. I probably need to research Judaism to understand where you are coming from, maybe some of it is culture and have to be experienced first hand. Not just read about on a forum.

  Imo, sharing perspectives is how we grow as humans.

  Lastly I would like to share I saying I came up with when I wrote this reply, I think it kind off fits:

  Once you understand how someone thinks, you will be able to think like them.
  /C0ntr013r

  If you want to continue to "educate" me in your views I am happy to learn. But if you don't find it "fruitful" that is okay too
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  C0ntr013r

  xD
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  C0ntr013r

  To give some context.

  My previous post before the above one:

  A lot of Jews say “HaShem” when referring to G-d. “HaShem” is Hebrew for “The Name.” That’s pretty easy.

  You say one of the reasons you don't write it down is because it could be missuses.

  the name “God” might be destroyed as refuse

  What is the reason for not saying the name, even quietly in a prayer?

  As for repetition in prayer, I have no more to offer.

  I have no personal opinions about this, actually.
  

  I was merely curious about your point of view, thank you for your insight!

  Remember unlike Christians, Jews are not bound to accept the written text as literal or to avoid looking at it critically.

  But then what is stopping you from picking and choosing what God ordered and what people just attributed to him?

  Some "Christians" interpret it literally, but that can be because they want to be consistent. Sure your interpretation can come from context, but when there is no clear indicator. How do you "unbind" yourself fom looking at it literally?

  But you can try to find the good in anything and adopt what works for you.

  Do you believe that the positive impact a interpretation can have on your life trumps the true message?

  So the fact that Jesus may have been a prophet doesn’t mean that I also have to think he is the Messiah.

  But if he was a prophet from your God, would that not make him just as important as Jeremiah or Elijah? Would not your connection to him be more than the connection between Mormons and JWs?

  Jews don’t go around thinking about what they don’t believe about Jesus.
  

  But I also believe that how the Christians interpreted Jesus of Nazareth was incorrect.

  So you have studied Jesus enough to deem Christians interpreted him incorrect? But you don't think he is important so you don't think about how he could preform miracles?

  I am sorry if I am blunt but I don't understand how you can combine these; to me, contradictory ideas.

  I don’t even believe in a personal Messiah as being the fulfillment of Jewish expectations.

  If another "prophet" like Elijah preached a personal Messiah? Would that be different?

  It is the entire NRSV New Testament text with footnotes, commentary, and study articles from Jewish sources regarding the material.

  Sounds a bit "heavy" for me atm :P

  Lastly, no. I don’t blame Christians as a whole for the Holocaust.

  My blame was on these so-called members of Christendom, the nations that either did something or failed to do something. But I can’t call to blame people who weren’t alive then or Christians as a whole.
  

  kinda makes it hard for me to accept the claims about Jesus in the New Testament...but that's just me.

  But you see a connection between Jesus and the holocaust that makes you turned off by Jesus?

  
  

  
  

  
  

  The response:

  I appreciate the questions, really I do.

  Even though you don’t notice it, there seems to be something in your questions that is suggestive of Christian logistics. It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions. I’m glad you’re asking, but to understand you will have to let go. It will actually help you understand the following answers.

  Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure. Like the American in my joke above, outside of this board they probably don’t go around thinking about G-d. To understand and appreciate the atheist one has to understand this as a constant. And one has to accept that their identity doesn’t stem from their not being a god. Their identity merely consists of this facet, which may be a very unimportant one for them on their list of convictions.

  You have to do the same with Jews and Judaism. You have to accept Jews not from your perspective, but from that of a Jew. Like the way we read from right to left and place a headcovering on our head when we pray instead of remove one’s headcovering, you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.

  Why not speak the Divine Name? What is stopping me from picking and choosing things from Scripture to follow or forsake? How do I unbind myself from the literal interpretation from Scripture? Why can a prophet like Jesus not be the Messiah? Why do things in Judaism seem so contradictory?

  All you questions are answered with one simple answer: That’s just the way it is in Judaism.

  Some of the reasons are use of logic. Some of the answers lie in how Judaism works. Others are bound to cultural constructs. And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.

  It takes a long time to un-think like a Westerner or a Gentile and turn your thinking to naturally flow like an Easterner and Jew. It won’t make sense overnight or with a simple answer because it requires an approach that let’s go of what you are familiar with, what is making you ask questions. Once you learn it you will have other questions, of course, but that’s the way things are.

  This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers. It’s complex because life is complex. It’s ambiguous because, again, that’s what life can be and often. JWs have a religion that is made up because they can’t deal with life and it’s lack of easy answers, it’s complexities, it’s ambiguities. Jews and atheists and agnostics often find more in common and mutual respect because of our approach. There are even crossovers like Jewish Humanists, and like I mentioned many atheist Gentiles who enjoy sharing in Jewish ritual. If you are really looking for answers about Judaism itself you might want to check out some books or websites. I will gladly help point the way, but I am not writing this information or am here to make converts or change people. But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.

  We welcome everybody but we’re not in the business of proselytizing. We accept people as they are on their own terms and our religion teaches us that this is how we find the greatest gifts of G-d and from life. I want my friends to be Jewish and Christian and atheist and agnostic and straight and gay and Gentile and Muslim and etc., etc. And I want them to know I accept, love, and support them as they are.
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  GrreatTeacher

  Hi, Caleb!

  I know I've read about this topic before, but I don't remember the details.

  People have complained that the JWs get the date of their Memorial, Nisan 14 wrong. The Jewish calculation would be different.

  Can you comment on this?

  Good to hear from you again.
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  Viviane

  "Just the way it is" isn't an answer, it's avoiding answers.
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  CalebInFloroda

  Dear C0ntr013r,

  I was merely trying to answer your questions by getting you ready for what might not be a bunch of satisfying answers.

  Judaism doesn't always come with satisfying answers, like our friends at the Watchtower feel must be supplied. So in our previous conversation I thought I should just mention that your questions showed a need to be prepared for Jewish ambiguity ( a big no-no in the JW world, as you are aware). Since I have no idea where you are coming from, I stated what I did without implication that I can read your mind and know what you are really thinking inside.

  Becuase if I could do that, I would set up a little shop with a flashing red neon sign that reads: PALM READER, TAROT CARDS, INCOME TAX, NOTARY PUBLIC.

  And I don't know if you are from Western society, but most people who speak English and ask questions about Jews are. We only make up 0.2% of the earth's population, so I was just assuming you might be.

  As to your question about life having contradictions and ambiguities...well, if you haven't noticed any yet, child just wait! They will slap you in the face soon enough. And the sad thing is you won't know what hit you when they do because it is all contradictory and ambiguous. Life can be mysterious and have unknowns, even from a scientific standpoint, and Judaism embraces this facet of life. It even makes it interesting.

  Lastly I do not always have a personal view or opinion about matters that Judaism does. Jews aren't forced to ascribe to beliefs like some religions. What you do is more important than what you believe. So while you may want to know what my personal views are, if I don't have one I can't give one. I don't hold much basis in my own opinions anyway. That is why often I will give a more educated or academic answer. I also don't care for personal opinions. I would rather have a conclusion based on the application of the scientific method.

  But Judaism is less a religion like the Watchtower and more of a cultural expression of spirituality. It is linked to a people, a tribe, and it's rituals and traditions. Often there are no definitive answers like the JWs offer for everything due to the fact that Jews aren't always looking for one.
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  CalebInFloroda

  @GrreatTeacher

  The JWs generally get the date right.

  The only problem is they believe that lunar dates are official based on when the phases of the moon should be seen over Jerusalem, and Jews calculate lunar dates when phases of the moon occur astronomically (as seen in your own backyard be it in Jersualem or not). So once in awhile the Memorial might occur a day off from the Passover.

  Is one way more correct than others? Well, I am not sure what possesses JWs to believe that Jews don't know how to use their own religious calendar, but whatever that is, that's the reason for any notable difference and why JWs think we Jews don't know how to use the calendar we invented.

  Please pick up your Mogen David gift basket on the way out.
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  CalebInFloroda

  @Viviane

  I can prove that such ("that's just the way it is") can often be a valid answer and not an excuse.

  For instance, why is Hebrew read for right to left and not left to right?

  In Spanish, why is the word "table" in the feminine and the word "room" masculine?

  Why does our existence exist?

  For you we have a consolation prize...Rice A Roni. It's the San Fransisco treat!
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  Viviane

  Clearly you don't understand the word "prove".