Posts by CalebInFloroda

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@Diogenesister

Sure it reads that way--if you believe the Jehovah's Witnesses and adhere to their particular literal reading of the Scriptures. But doing that won't match up with anything you can find or verify historically or archeologically.

You have to read the directive for sacrifices from Jewish Scripture much as you would of any culture that practiced the same thing. You also need to have a good idea of how and why ancient cultures did this. We are talking about eating. Not only were animals sacrificed, but the first fruits of grains and first batches of oil and wine.

One striking thing to remember is that the Jewish doctrine that G-d is very unlike humans is pre-Biblical, and therefore you can't read the texts without understanding that at all times. G-d neither eats, nor breathes, nor smells...etc. Jews have always been adamant about this. We don't even refer to G-d as "he" (you might notice this from my writing). The Scripture pronoun "he" in Hebrew when used in reference to G-d actually mean "he/she/it" and has no equivalence in English.

This means Jews knew G-d had no use for animal blood or the smell caused by an offering on the altar. Therefore you have to read the expressions with this in mind.

Without the sacrificial system people could not get a lot of the foodstuffs they needed. The priestly class could not feed itself. People who were not physically able to keep large cattle under their control as they slaughtered them for meat (have you ever tried to hold down a cow as you made a hamburger out of him?) would have to settle for vegetarian diets while only the strong could enjoy a good steak!

What the system did was offer a continual way to give thanks to G-d for each animal slaughtered. It removed parts that weren't edible or thought proper for the diet (fat and certain innards are set "aside for G-d"), and provided a way for all to get what they needed from the cattle they raised.

If you think people brought animals to the Temple with fear that G-d would strike them down, you really don't have an idea of what it's like to live in a world without your corner Piggly-Wiggly or Taco Bell stand readily offering you food. Jews weren't the only people who did this in ancient times. It was the norm before some clown invented McDonald's.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@SecretSlaveClass

Thanks.

I almost didn’t join this site because I had been away so very long from the JWs. And then I let my feelings get hurt when someone misunderstood what I was doing here and I brought up Judaism.

Then someone I knew reminded me of why it was important to share what I have learned and been through since being a Witness. Since the issues dealt with all stem from the Jewish Scriptures, Jewish monotheism concept, Jewish religion, etc., I was in a unique place to help exJWs on their journey. Being that Judaism has room to embrace the agnostic and atheist, I was also reminded that it could be important for many leaving the Watchtower to see that the start of it all, Judaism, was not so cut and dry or about “belief” in concepts.

In the time that passed since leaving the JWs I became a language specialist who focused on literary transmission through the ages (a field known as “philology”). I have had the honor of helping Bible translation scholars over the past several years in their work, as well as other religious professionals, all of them Christian despite the fact that I returned to my Jewish roots once I left the Watchtower. My specialty, of course, is Hebrew religious literature, so I became a much requested commodity of sorts with the ecumenical translations which have recently been released.

So I have to give credit to that past experience and my Jewish culture. I’m just remembering things. I would be happy to point you to the some resources, but realize that there is no exhaustive and complete list out there. We are talking about a subject that literally reaches back thousands of years into the past.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

Yeah, opusdei, I think the Watchtower is so ignorant when it makes these conclusions.

It is so simple to merely do research in Judaism or to consult something like The Jewish Study Bible and get a glimpse of what type of Jewish thought went into what is now considered as Holy Writ.

What amazes me the most is that the Governing Body doesn't do this at all, nor do their assistant writers. The issue of blood, for example, comes from the common ancient butchering system common to most people of the Mesopotamian district. "Sacrifices" were really the "butcher shop" of the Hebrew world. Slaughter of living animals was carried out in a humane way, with "offerings" of blood (a symbol of life) given back to G-d. This is easily learned as it is a very basic concept.

This was just an ancient way of Jews "telling" G-d: "We know this life comes from you. Thanks, now let's eat!" We Jews haven't rebuilt the Temple because, among other things, we recognize this was just the ancient "meat distribution" system set up in ancient cultures. We have Kosher butchers now or, for those Jews who don't keep kashrut, the corner grocer will do. We now give thanks at home, before and after meals. The altar before the Temple is a relic of a very ancient past.

The blood issue was still alive and well in the first century merely because many pagans and heathens still prepared their meat this way, as an offering to a god. That is why you have the information written at 1 Corinthians 8.7-10 and 10.27-29. It still bothered some Christians that meat processed by Gentiles was prepared in a ritual that thanked the local god for the life of the animal.

In short, the JWs are off because the issue on blood is about thanking the right G-d for it. Animal products processed at the Temple were acceptable, but those that weren't raised questions. Also, the expression about "blood" in Acts 15 as I believed I mentioned before in one of Terry's threads, is a reference to the Noachian Laws and a prohibition against murder. It is silly to compare all of this to life-saving blood transfusions.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

Actually Modern Biblical scholarship dismissed the idea that leprosy is the skin disease being spoken of in the Scriptures, but the Watchtower has not caught up yet with that information. Most modern Bible versions since the 1970s don't ever use the word "leprosy" due to this.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Perry,

You are doing it again.

I've stated clearly that Jews have never understood those texts as Christains do. These are not my own opinions, you can check for yourself with Jewish sites in the Internet or look it up in Jewish study materials.

Christians wrote the New Testament, correct? Whose interpretation of the NT would be more accurate, that of Muslims or that of Christians of their own Scriptures? Who can interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church better, Mormons or Catholics? And can't Jews have a better understanding of their own Scriptures and theology than others?

I pray in Hebrew, speak Hebrew, read Hebrew all through the day. I am a Jew, and our culture and theology are well known. They are not what you say they are. Those Scriptures don't mean what Gentile Christians say they do, at least not to us. All due respect, but your beliefs are based on interpretations that don't come from Jews.

You are not free When you say Jews don't know their own Scriptures that they composed and reflects their unique culture and unique theology; that is a sign that you are not free at all but bound to the same blindness loved by people who are still in the Watchtower. Ignorance is not freedom.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@opusdei1972

A horrible thought, no matter how you read it, that verse is the end of a song lamenting what the Babylonians did to the Jews and their own children in the process.

Many Jewish infants died in the siege and deportation to Babylon. To top things off, once in captivity, the Babylonians further taunted the Jews to continue with their liturgical actions of thanksgiving that once filled the First Temple.

While the Jews felt they could not offer songs of thanksgiving, they did make up a song to sing about Babylon starting in the verse before the one you quote:

"A blessing on him who repays you in kind/what you have inflicted on us;/a blessing on him who seizes your babies/and dashes them against the rocks!"

In other words: "The only song we will sing to you is that we will bless those who do to you what you did to us, who will do to your children what you did to ours!"

The text isn't advising people to seek vengeance but describing how painful it was for the Jews to endure captivity and taunts.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

@SecretSlaveClass

I would say you are right on target.

Of course you do have to consider that you are leaning heavily on concepts introduced via the New Testsment. A belief in the devil and demons are post-Tanakh (after the Hebrew Bible was composed), and their connection with illness appears to have come from Hellenistic influences.

There is also well-established exegetical theory that suggests New Testament references to "demons" in connection with health challenges may be partially idiomatic. It appears that sometime after the return from Babylon that a popular view among Jews of health problems drew connections from an attempt to explain them, either connecting them to sin, ceremonial uncleanness, or activity of demonic forces which was new to the scene. Stories like those found in the book of Tobit (which connects a demon to all types of problems) actually became popular in Jewish society. The New Testament message seems to not merely explain a power of Jesus over these types of "demons" but might suggest an exposure of this type of thinking as faulty.

In the end, there was no attempt by any Bible writers to employ a scientific explanation to lessons which were meant to be used for religious catechesis or designed to fit liturgical needs.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@Perry

And again, a point which you seem with Watchtower-blindness to skip over and ignore, we Jews do not believe that our actions hold any merit with G-d or impress him or gain us salvation. I've said that before but you keep acting as if those words have never been written here on this thread by me.

JWs act the same you are doing, claiming that others don't know their own convictions as well as they, JWs do. Why are you going back to the same attitudes?

I think it great if you want to be a Christian, and despite anything I've written I also think it can bring you closer to G-d (it's not one thing or the other in Jewish thought). My religion teaches me it is wrong to claim that Christians "imagine" G-d into something that G-d isn't or that Christians embrace a theology that they clearly do not. Apparently your religion teaches differently.

Back to the subject at hand...the idea that the Biblical texts provide a literal model for the physical world creates more problems than they solve.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Flood stories in ancient Mesopotamian literature are a type of cosmogony-creation story. All cultures from that area believed that life and the elements of the universe came from a cosmic sea (there was no vacuum of space in their minds).

One cosmogony does not state that there was a "beginning" in the traditional sense. This particular model claims that life in our current world came from life of a previous world that was destroyed via a flood or collapse of the cosmic waters.

The details differ, but the gods (an essential element or "players" in the cosmogony) either warn a human of the coming deluge who contracts a vehicle to transfer himself and animals from the old world to the present or the gods do the tranfering themselves.

The Noachin flood is the third of three creation-origin stories emoloyed by the Hebrew people in their religious tradition. In it the "sin" of the previous world is wiped out to make room for the new, good, and holiness of the present. In this new paradigm animals are said to fear humans and carnivorous diets as said to begin, but this is due not to sin but due to sin being wiped away by the flood.

Of course the Bible is not saying that the world has seen three creations. The culture from which the Jews emerged shared these three cosmogony models in common, and each was employed in the prologue leading to the "history" of the Jewish people. If you note, the first 11 chapters of Genesis are filled with origin stories, but beginning with chapter 12 the type of narrative used changes dramatically with the call of Abraham. These origin stories are a deposit of the various traditions cherished by the Jews, not a literal history of the world in the chronological order in which they occurred.

The Noachin flood is just the last of the "creations" in this deposit before moving on to address the setting for the actual Torah which begins with the lives of Abraham and Sarah. The eating of animals by animals is seen as a nominal facet of this "new world" without sin after the "flood," but each of the three traditions are backdrops for a more important truth that comes with the Law, not in the creation stories themselves.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Post script for Perry:

One thing that might help you understand the stark differencs between the concepts you have as a Christian and that of the Jews is your mentioning serving "the G-d of the Bible."

That doesn't exist for Jews since we knew G-d before any of us put "pen to paper" to create even a stroke of a letter of what would eventually become the Bible.

Christians may believe in the G-d of the Bible, but Jews believe in the G-d of Abraham and Sarah, and we did this before there was a Bible.

We believed in G-d before the Ten Commandments were inscribed on stone.

We believed in G-d before G-d revealed the Torah to Moses.

Now it is a good thing to believe in the Bible and what you learn of G-d within its pages, don't get me wrong.

But the G-d of the Jews existed before the Bible and is not limited to the Bible. Thus our theological concepts can differ greatly. We are the people who knew about and worshipped G-d before there was a Bible, and we wrote the Book you put your faith in.

Scripture is the product of our religion, not its basis. The G-d we interact with is not found just in Scripture. At best, G-d is merely reflected in it, at least as Jews understand G-d.

So approaches and conclusions can only differ since you are basing you belief on what a book says about G-d, but we wrote the book based on our experiences. That is very different.