Posts by CalebInFloroda

30

Prophecy in Daniel: A last Fierce-looking King

by Kosonen in

there is an unfulfilled prophecy in daniel about the last king that will be broken without human hand.

the prophecy says he will be fierce-looking, deceptive, efficent in his doings, smart and causing ruin to many.

and he will exalt himself.

CalebInFloroda

You did well on finding the parallel “vision.” But it is still the same event and same “king” of the Chanukah events as far as historians, Jews, and mainstream Christian exegetes are concerned.

And the “little horn” is likewise also understood to be Antiochus Epiphanes. His power grew exactly as describes in Daniel in regard to his campaigns in Egypt, Persia, and eventually the Holy Land. Antiochus is also the subject of the prophecy of Daniel chapter 9. (Telling the same event over in “threes” is a numerology earmark of apocalyptic compositions, “confirming” the demise of Antiochus.)

The “three and a half times” or years is the same period as mentioned in Daniel 9.27. The Second Temple was desecrated by Antiochus from 167 to 164 BCE.

30

Prophecy in Daniel: A last Fierce-looking King

by Kosonen in

there is an unfulfilled prophecy in daniel about the last king that will be broken without human hand.

the prophecy says he will be fierce-looking, deceptive, efficent in his doings, smart and causing ruin to many.

and he will exalt himself.

CalebInFloroda

Viviane is 100% correct.

First of all, the Book of Daniel is not found in the “Prophets” section of the Hebrew Scriptures. It contains personal visions given to kings and Daniel himself, but since it contains no oracles for Israel, it is not considered a book of prophecy. Daniel is found in the “Writings” instead.

Jews did not consider dreams and visions to be fundamental to prophecy as prophecy had to be publicly issued among the Jews with a verified fulfillment to be considered “prophecy.” Visions are personal, not public, and do not qualify as oracle pronouncements. That being said, the visions of Daniel concern only the time leading up to the Seleucid period of persecution and its demise.

Jewish and Christian (and even historical) scholars agree that the writings are not foretelling the future but employing a narrative genre known as “apocalyptic composition.” This type of genre used the backdrop of dreams and images as devices to give commentary and opinion regarding current political intrigue. They are similar to today’s “talking heads” on news outlets who interpret what the news “means,” specializing in offering opinion regarding politics and intrigue stirred up by the same. Since freedom of speech did not exist in ancient times, apocalyptic composition was employed.

The “visions” were all fulfilled before Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth, and in fact lead up to the events that are now celebrated by the Jews at Chanukah. The “king” mentioned is Antiochus Epiphanes whose attempt to dedicate the Second Temple to Zeus by sacrificing a pig on the altar was met with the rebellion of Judas Maccabeus.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@Perry

If you would like to start a new thread about the points you argue I would welcome that. In reply to the points you've already raised I can only point out again that your claim that Jewish theology agrees with your views on Original Sin is very incorrect.

Psalm 51.7 (in most Christian Bibles the verse count is different, and is usually numbered as verse “5”):

Indeed I was born with iniquity;
with sin my mother conceived me.

Note that this is a prayer of repentance made by David after committing adultery with Bathsheba and having her husband killed, leading to the eventual death of the child conceived by the adulterous act. This is therefore not a discussion about the sins of others or humanity’s guilt. David is discussing his own.

David doesn’t say, “I have inherited sin from Adam,” or even dares to say that someone else is responsible for his sin. David is saying his sin is his alone, not that it was passed from mother to son. Note that the Scripture doesn’t say all humans were born with iniquity or that all people have been conceived by their mothers with sin, just he himself.

Genesis 8.21

The devisings of humanity are evil from youth onward.

The text doesn’t say that people have inherited sin from Adam. It merely says that people have the capacity to plan or invent evil from their earliest ages.

The Bible also tells us that humans have the equal capacity to master this inclination at Genesis 4.7, and can choose good over evil as stated at Psalm 37.27.

You have argued that the word “youth” that appears in Hebrew implies that sin is inherited from infancy, but that is not true. The Hebrew word, “naur,” only means “youth” or “childhood.” “Naur” is not a noun describing a person but period of young age. In Hebrew it literally translates as “early life” and not as “young person.” A period of time or age cannot inherit anything.

Psalm 14.2-3

The Lord looks down from heaven
on humankind
to see if any are wise,
if any seek God.

All have gone astray,
depraved, every one;
there is no one who does any good;
no, not even one.

This text is very much read out of context. Note how in verses 4-6 ‘all who have gone astray’ are contrasted with a different group, “the generation of the just” of verse 5. The “all” who do no good, “no, not even one” are referred to as a group apart from Israel, referred to as “they.”

Are they [all who have gone astray] so witless,
all those evildoers,
who devour my people [a separate group from “all who have gone astray”]
as they devour food,
and do not invoke the Lord?

There they [all who have gone astray] will be seized with fright,
for God is present in the generation of the just [a separate group from “all who have gone astray”].
You may mock the plans of one that is poor,
but his refuge is the Lord.

No, this text is referring to the psalmists enemies as “all who have gone astray.” It does not include all human beings because it definitely does not include “my people” who are being devoured by the “all who have gone astray” group.

Job 15.15-16
If [God] doesn’t trust his holy ones and even the heavens aren’t pure in his eyes, how much less those who are abominable and corrupt, for they drink sin like water.

This text, which only half was quoted by you, is hyperbole. If it was literal, then Heaven, where G-d lives, is an impure place and all the angels live with the knowledge that G-d doesn’t trust any of them. Do you believe that too? These are not the words of faithful Job but of his “friend” Eliphaz the Temanite, and besides they merely state that G-d doesn’t trust people “who are abominable and corrupt.” It doesn’t say all humankind has inherited sin from Adam.

Jeremiah 17.19

This text does not “assume original sin.” It merely states:

Most cunning is the human heart, beyond remedy— who can truly understand it?

Ecclesiastes 9.3 is also hyperbole:

The hearts of all human beings are filled with evil, and madness is in the mind of every person throughout their lives, filling every moment until they die.

If this is literally saying that all human hearts are filled with evil, then it is equally true that all of us are suffering from madness until the day we die. But that is not what the text really means. Even if it were literal, it still doesn’t say humans inherited sin from Adam.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@Litebrite

Then it seems you are at a good place.

Keep in mind that what I have supplied is the philological background for actual exegetical work, which you will have to work out for yourself and on your own. Jews don't have an "official" exegesis of Scripture. This is about as far as I can go before introducing in-depth Jewish theology into the picture. From this point onward Jews take the philology and build upon it.

In conclusion, the main point from the Jewish view is that all creation was created "good," with the potential to be good and do good despite not always being perfect or sometimes making the wrong choices. We can all reverse our courses when we've realized we have made mistakes and make the outcome a good one.

It does differ strikingly from the Christian theological paradigm which considers the second creation account as the only valid one or more important one, leaving people to see themselves and the world around them as wounded by a single act of sin and thus undeserving of life and the world around them. I find that some Christians are unwilling to accept the Jewish concept that all humanity, unbelievers included, all innately good with the capacity to not only bring good into the world but holiness and redemption as well.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

@Litebrite

The Jewish understanding is that the story could not be about passing on death to all because the narrative of Adam and Eve ends with their being blocked from partaking of the Tree of Life.

In other words, the story implies that if they ate from the Tree of Life they would live forever. Since that was required for eternal life but Adam and Eve never got the chance to do that, therefore they never had the gift of unending life to begin with. You don't need a Tree of Life or its fruit if you already can live forever. So it could not be eternal life that Adam and Eve lost "due to sin" because they never had access to it to begin with. They were obviously created as mortals, and death was part of the plan of G-d from the beginning.

But this is not the meaning of the narrative however. Recall that this is the second creation story. In the first, in Genesis chapter 1, there is no mention of trees with fruit that gave knowledge or life. Instead in the first creation story no foods are off limits.--Compare Genesis 1.29 with 3.3.

In the second creation story (Genesis chapters 2 and 3) we are introduced to our first parents and an "incident" which seems to teach an axiom: humans make mistakes, and that's part of our nature. The greatest mistake is leaving G-d out of the equation or decisions we make. "Sin," which is never mentioned in reference to Adam and Eve, doesn't even show up until Cain starts thinking murderous thoughts. (The first mention of sin in the Bible is connected with fratricide at Genesis 4.7.) The story is not history but a creation narrative, setting the stage for the third creation story, that of the Noachin flood (Genesis 6-9).

The third story employs a more common creation narrative accepted among the ancients, one that stated that humans and the world have always existed but that the current world is the result of the other being wiped out by a flood (floods of water were seen as creative not necessarily destructive forces). Both evil and the "curse upon the ground" created due to Adam's disobedience (Genesis 3.17-19) is reversed in the third creation-flood narrative. The name "Noah" means "the one who relieves us of the curse."--Genesis 5.28-29; compare the fact that after the flood, Noah is able to make the earth produce crops, Genesis 9.20-21.

All three stories are but one, describing the same "miracle" of creation, but employing three separate but accepted cosmogonies of the ancient Mesopotamian world. While Jewish tradition holds that Adam and Eve and Noah were real persons, it does not imply that the narratives about them are historical. The middle creation story says that Adam brought a curse into the world, one that Noah relieved us of through his surviving of the flood.

With the curse lifted creation could now echo the words originally spoken of in the first creation story, that the world and humankind were essentially created as "good," not sinful. As such people could be holy by being obedient to G-d, unlike acting as Adam and Eve once did. These stories are merely setting the stage for the main player, the arrival of Torah itself which is the means by which Jews believe holiness can be introduced into the world both directly and indirectly.--Leviticus 11.44; 19.2.

The Torah itself, however, is not the only means to holiness. All humankind has this capacity built in it. The Torah is the means offered to the Jews, but when other nations follow their conscience in ways of justice and right, they bring about holiness in them and the world around them too. This is the meaning behind the creative narratives, that G-d gave us the capacity to be as G-d declared us from the very beginning:

"God looked at everything God had made, and God found that it was all very good indeed."--Genesis 1.31.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

CalebInFloroda

Perry,

I'm Jewish, a Sephardic Jew of the tribe of Judah. My ancestors were Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob and Rachel and Leah.

My ancestors included many who were forced to accept Christianity or else torture or being expelled from Spain. Thus during the Spanish Inquisition many of my ancestors were persecuted by Christians, some murdered, and in 1492 we were sent out from our homes with the sealing of the Alhambra Decree.

Just a couple of months ago I received formal apologies from Christians and their official religious groups in Europe who either actively participated in the Holocaust or stood by and did nothing. During those 6 dark years 2 million direct relatives of mine were sent to the death camps in full view of people who follow your Christ. None of the Sephardic communities of Europe remained after all was said and done. My native Jewish tongue, Ladino, is now going extinct due to the horrors of the Holocaust and millions of Christians who remained silent witnesses to genocide.

I did not "find Jews" who agree with my beliefs. I was taught the traditions of my ancestors, and it is these I have spoken of here. Who are you to tell me to stop listening to my people? My culture and religion and Scriptures are inseparable. They are a holistic expression of what it means to be Jewish and what it means to be "the people of the Book."

Who are you, a descendent of pagans and heathens, to tell me that I am making up the traditions and theology I have inherited as a right from my people? Who are you, a Christian, who is dependent on the stock of Israel for all you call holy, to claim that I am merely inventing these things?

Maybe I am looking at things wrongly. perhaps it would be better if I joined your religion and became the same type of Christian you are so I can find another Jew to insult as you have insulted me in the same manner and with the same words you have. If this is what being Christian means, to state things about me that have no basis then no wonder your spiritual ancestors handed my people over to the ovens of Auschwitz.

22

Jesus The Perfect Reflection Of The Father?

by JW_Rogue in

so this week's wt study was all about jesus and the miracles he performed.

according to the study this proves that god wants to heal mankind in the same way.

because as we all know jesus is a perfect reflection of his heavenly father.

CalebInFloroda

@opusdei

I recall my early studies during my reversion process about how the Messianic concept evolved in Judaism.

When the Roman occupation occurred is when the personal Messiah concept developed. Due to the oppression from Rome, the Messiah was solidly linked with the Davidic dynasty when previously it was only infrequently connected therewith. The Messiah was at that point in time hoped to be a new king that would break the yoke of Rome and bring freedom to the state.

Jewish hopes had always linked the Messianic Age to come with "redemption," which in Jewish theology is limited to relief from injustice, poverty, sickness and other ailments of the physical world. The Christians reinterpreted this, likely for convenience, when Jesus of Nazareth ended up dying. The "redemption" now tied with the Messiah by Christians was one from "sin" inherited from Adam, a concept foreign to Judaism. The other physical facets of "redemption" were thus transferred to a future Second Coming since it was not possible to totally invent the Messianic concept without using the literal and basic meaning of the "redemption" which is still central to the Jews.

Today it is generally recognized that the coming Jewish Messiah who would be a monarch is not likely to be the case. Monarchies are institutions that have become obsolete, so what the Jews expect (while not necessarily rejecting the possible revival of the Davidic dynasty) has advanced beyond the ancient descriptions. Some Jews have moved beyond the concept of the Messiah even being a person, believing that the prophecies and hopes may have been using personifications and ancient concepts to describe something else, perhaps even something that humans can achieve together through humanitarian efforts.

This does not mean that Christians are lost either. The basic ideas of what the Messiah concept entails has now been spread abroad through the ministry of Christians to the extent that should things turn out different from what Christians expect, they should still be able to accept whatever the fulfillment of the Messianic hopes eventually turn out to be.

53

What is their official explanation for not allowing beards?

by keyser soze in

jw
friends

i ask because my gf, who knows all about my jw upbringing, convinced me to grow a goatee, just to see how it looks.

we both decided it looked good so i decided to keep it.

i tried to explain to her that as a jw, i wasn't allowed to grow one, but then drew a blank when she asked me why.

CalebInFloroda

I find the JW illustrations highly anti-Semitic.

You never see Jews in the Witness paradise, no yarmulkes or facial hair, no prayer shawls or other indication than anything other than Gentile pagan customs will be the rule of the land.

Shaving is a pagan practice, and if you notice from the way they make you dress even today a Jew would be forced to assimilate in order to be accepted. Witnesses think they are free from paganism, but they are just ignorant of how pagan they really are.

22

Jesus The Perfect Reflection Of The Father?

by JW_Rogue in

so this week's wt study was all about jesus and the miracles he performed.

according to the study this proves that god wants to heal mankind in the same way.

because as we all know jesus is a perfect reflection of his heavenly father.

CalebInFloroda

Colossians 1.15 states that Christians believed Jesus to be "the image of the invisible God." The Greek word for "image" is EIKON and is the same word to describe the inscription of Ceasar's bust on coins and the idolatrous "image" of the wild beast in Revelation.

The expression in reference to Jesus MIGHT imply or suggest that he was viewed as the physical icon or graven image of God, suggesting that Pauline theology saw worship of Jesus as something akin to worshipping the invisible YHWH.

This text is used as support from Orthodox and Roman Catholics in incorporating their use of images of Jesus (and others) in their worship. Such language and usage, however, is considered idolatrous by Jews and is considered one of the blocks to accepting Jesus, an "image" of the Father, as the promised Messiah of Jewish hopes.

21

Why the Bible is a poor moral compass

by Diogenesister in

please don't click the link if you feel details of abuse would upset you http://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/letter-to-the-director-of-public-prosecutions-from-steven-unthank-in-relation-to-discontinuing-the-criminal-trial-february-2012-pdf.pdf.

looking at some of the events that led up to the rc in australia i came across this letter, submitted to the d.p.p.

by steven upthank, in relation to the crown discontinuing prosecution of the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.

CalebInFloroda

Wonderful questions. Never be apologetic for asking questions, at least not with me.

First, we Jews in general aren’t in the business of fooling ourselves into believing we have always been holy or faithful worshipers of G-d. We acknowledge coming from a pretty savage race that was the product of a savage time. Like all other races we probably gave ourselves far more credit in the Scriptures for being far more blessed by G-d than we should have, and we often claimed that G-d was behind things we ourselves clearly did on our own.

Now you have to let go of the idea that just because it’s in the Bible and attributed to G-d that it really happened that way. That’s an ancient narrative device that doesn’t reflect a theological reality. It’s similar to what you read in Psalm 22 where the psalmist asks G-d why he has been forsaken.

Well, obviously the psalmist got it wrong. If he had been forsaken then how on earth did the psalm become an inspired piece of work in the Hebrew Scriptures? That doesn’t mean the psalmist who composed it didn’t believe at the time that G-d had abandoned him or at least felt that way. He did indeed. The theological reality is that his feelings and viewpoint didn't match G-d's, who was obviously paying attention, and this false point of view of the psalmist got transferred into the psalm as we have it today.

In the same sense you will read in Scripture how G-d commanded us to do certain things, like attack people who were living in the Promised Land. In reality what this means is that we attribute our “successes” or “victories” to G-d. If a battle went well, it was because "G-d was behind it." If we failed, it is because "we were being bad." It is a primitive mentality. And it’s there in the Scriptures for everyone to look at.

But such battles and "commands" that claim that G-d was behind certain slaughters or demanding the stoning of people is no more true than the Bible’s claim that we were monotheistic throughout our history. The truth of the matter is we weren’t.

What can be gathered from historical and archeological records and finds is that Israel wasn’t monotheistic until the Davidic dynasty made worship of YHWH the state religion. Up till that point the archeological record proves that we Jews loved our idols and worshipped tribal gods. The Bible states that we only infrequently fell into such idolatry, and that when we did it was the fault of those pesky Gentiles that surrounded us or lived in our land. But in reality, idol worship was the thing until King David made it illegal to worship any other G-d but his own. The idols disappear from the archeological record when the Temple appears, and this happened in the Biblical record as well by redaction.

Does this mean the Bible is therefore a book of lies? Well it's definitely not a book of facts. It's very much like the history of the United States that has George Washington chopping down cherry trees, Lincoln growing up in a tiny log cabin, and Paul Revere riding around declaring: "The British are coming! The British are coming!" None of these things actually happened, but there are values and truths transmitted through these legends.

The Bible is no different. It says things in ancient ways, not literal. You have to rely on the intention of the writers and study whether stories were originally meant for oral transmission over written medium (and other critical methods) to understand the what and why behind these texts. They are definitely not light reading.

So yes, these texts that describe savage behavior are more connected to the people of the time and how they expressed ideas. They aren't meant to reflect the type of "unchangeable realities" that JWs attribute to them.