Most witnesses are vaguelly aware that Russell used the pyramid to calculate dates , but that he used it to reinforce what he felt was bible based chronology. It is mentioned (although not elaborated upon) in the official histories of Jehovah's witnesses eg on page 201, the Proclaimers book acknowledges that "For some 35 years, Pastor Russell thought that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was God's stone witness, corroborating Biblical time periods." In 1877 Barbour and Russell coauthored a book called Three Worlds and the Harvest of this World, in which they started their chronology with "a date well authenticated and generally accepted by scholars" for the first year of Cyrus, namely, 536 B.C. Then they interpreted verses in Jeremiah and Daniel to mean that seventy years of desolation of Judah ended in 536 B.C., so that the start of the desolation must have been seventy years earlier, in 606 B.C. Finally they counted forward 2520 years from 606 B.C.E. and arrived at 1914 C.E I've never known a witness to be too concerned about the pyramid angle as the argument is that Russell was searching the scriptures and other philosophies trying to establish the truth and made mistakes along the way. The calculations are primarily based on an interpretation of Daniel's "7 times" prophecy.
Posts by dozy
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19Pyramids and 1914
by smudge ini have had several studies with several j.w.s as i am very interested in theology and most of my in-laws are j.w.
on many occasions i asked to see the very complicated way that the year 1914 was obtained.
everyone of my studies told me not to worry about it, that it involves much complicated math and it has been checked over and over and is right.
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Moving Congregations. Am I Allowed To Read The Letter The Elders Write?
by Diogenes ini've just moved congregations (it's the easiest way to keep people off your back!
) and the elders have received the letter written about me.. i've asked to read it to make sure there are no inaccuracies but the elders have refused point blank saying i'm not allowed.. i'm certain that under the data protection act i am allowed.. does anybody have any thoughts on this?
could you point me to anything the society have said?
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dozy
The expression "Our loss is your gain" traditionally appears.
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Moving Congregations. Am I Allowed To Read The Letter The Elders Write?
by Diogenes ini've just moved congregations (it's the easiest way to keep people off your back!
) and the elders have received the letter written about me.. i've asked to read it to make sure there are no inaccuracies but the elders have refused point blank saying i'm not allowed.. i'm certain that under the data protection act i am allowed.. does anybody have any thoughts on this?
could you point me to anything the society have said?
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dozy
Technically , you are correct - under the DPA you are entitled to see a copy of the letter (you may have to pay a fee - up to £10 , I believe - usually waived). If the Elders have refused point blank saying that you are not allowed then they are wrong. There is no excuse for this - the elders have received numerous letters on the DPA and the WTS has bent over backwards to comply.HOWEVER:
(1) The letter is destroyed as soon as it is read , so it may no longer exist. The original congregation does not keep a copy.This overcomes any problem with data storage and processing under the act.
(2) In the highly unlikely event that your new congregation has kept a record , the letter is unlikely to be of any value anyway. The elders are told to keep any written information as vague as possible , so it is unlikely to be prejudicial. The last letter we received simply stated the persons name , very brief outline information and how long they had been in their previous cong. The new PO will normally phone the old PO (or vice versa) and any meaningful information is passed on verbally.
Information about data protection is contained in this link: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/19980029.htm
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JW DECREASE IN AMERICA of 1.07%
by DannyHaszard inworldwide faith news (press release), ny - 3 minutes ago .
... 25. jehovah's witnesses, 1,029,902 members, reporting a decrease of 1.07 members.
24. the orthodox church in america, 1,064,000 members, reporting an increase of 6.40 percent.
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dozy
"In the Organization, I've seen pioneers who were dealing drugs (in order to support their way of life pioneering), I've seen elders commit adultery with women half their ages, I've known elders and MS's who go to strip clubs after the meeting on Thursday night. I've seen elderettes drink vodka at 9:00am in the morning before they go out in Service and I've seen Witness parents beat the holy hell out of their kids. Oh, and in case you're wondering----none of the abover were disfellowshipped."
Yeh , right. I'll nominate you for the Booker prize for 2006!
"You're pathetic." Thanks for the summary - you ex-JW "Christians" are such delightful people. I just can't wait to leave & join in loving association with you.
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JW DECREASE IN AMERICA of 1.07%
by DannyHaszard inworldwide faith news (press release), ny - 3 minutes ago .
... 25. jehovah's witnesses, 1,029,902 members, reporting a decrease of 1.07 members.
24. the orthodox church in america, 1,064,000 members, reporting an increase of 6.40 percent.
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dozy
Ozzie - what is the difference between a musical service in your church and going to a Tom Jones (or maybe a Rolf Harris) concert? The singing of praises is an element of worship but the churches hit on this and make this virtually the whole worship experience.
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JW DECREASE IN AMERICA of 1.07%
by DannyHaszard inworldwide faith news (press release), ny - 3 minutes ago .
... 25. jehovah's witnesses, 1,029,902 members, reporting a decrease of 1.07 members.
24. the orthodox church in america, 1,064,000 members, reporting an increase of 6.40 percent.
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dozy
JWFacts - how much of an impact did Jesus make? If you asked the average Jew what Jesus stood for , what he believed , who he was - what response would you get? Would you get an informed , carefully reasoned viewpoint? Or would the average Jew have known very little - and much of what little he knew was wrong and misguided. What about Noah? Isaiah? Ezekiel? Remember Peter and Paul - all people knew was that people everywhere vilified Christians. If people refuse to listen (for whatever reason) or accept the commonly held view in their community , then that is their perogative.
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JW DECREASE IN AMERICA of 1.07%
by DannyHaszard inworldwide faith news (press release), ny - 3 minutes ago .
... 25. jehovah's witnesses, 1,029,902 members, reporting a decrease of 1.07 members.
24. the orthodox church in america, 1,064,000 members, reporting an increase of 6.40 percent.
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dozy
Maybe in USA (and Lithuania?!) there is a bit more of an evangelising spirit among other religions - in the UK it is dead.
"It is hard for someone who has never attended or closely observed or studied other religions to know what goes on in them" - but we are talking here about the outreach , evangelising efforts that other churches make. Which has zero impact on the population here.As an apostate , Blondie , you are probably down as a do-not-call. Even if you think you are not known by JWs in your area , "we know where you live!"
Ozzie - show support from the scriptures that a big sing song with guitars , tambourines and virtually zero scriptural teaching constitutes worship. We call it a concert in this country.
And - doh - witnesses have increased. Not decreased.
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JW DECREASE IN AMERICA of 1.07%
by DannyHaszard inworldwide faith news (press release), ny - 3 minutes ago .
... 25. jehovah's witnesses, 1,029,902 members, reporting a decrease of 1.07 members.
24. the orthodox church in america, 1,064,000 members, reporting an increase of 6.40 percent.
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dozy
"How do you account for the size of other religions? It is because they actively preac (Oh come on - get real!) At work I am well aware of those who are active Christians. They preach to people, rather than the pointless and ineffective waste of time spent at the doors of empty houses."
Wrong - other religions are so big because they demand absolutely nothing from their members in terms of commitment , belief and restraints on conduct. "Membership" simply is on the basis that this was their parent's religion - the longer they were going the more members they have. Why are there more Catholics than any other Christian religion? I see thousands of them every fortnight when Glasgow Celtic play their home games - their conduct , attitude , language and hatred for other fans is a sight to behold. Is it because of their missionary zeal that they are so numerous? You are joking , right?
From a personal perpective , for the last twenty years , no "Christian" ( other than an occasional Mormon) has EVER preached or witnessed individually to me - at home , in work , on the street , on the phone ,anywhere. You will also know from when you were a witness that hardly ever does a Christian make any effort to express their beliefs or engage in any meaningful scriptural discussion - there was a thread to this effect recently on JWD (I'll try to find it). One ex-JW poster said that in forty years field service , only one "Christian" had ever asked him a meaningful question.
Some local churches have brought in the singers and guitars and a few more go along for the big sing-song , but it is far removed from Christian worship in any way.
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JW DECREASE IN AMERICA of 1.07%
by DannyHaszard inworldwide faith news (press release), ny - 3 minutes ago .
... 25. jehovah's witnesses, 1,029,902 members, reporting a decrease of 1.07 members.
24. the orthodox church in america, 1,064,000 members, reporting an increase of 6.40 percent.
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dozy
Would this article have been highlighted by opposers if the report had actually got the figures right (ie an increase rather than a decrease)?
In any case , how do they define church membership? My grandmother described herself as Church of England on census forms and would have been included in any collation of membership , yet the last time she went to church was in 1954. How often have you met someone who describes themselves as an Anglican / Catholic / Baptist etc but they admit that they don't believe in the bible , or even God in some instances. Ask them who their vicar is and you usually get the "blank stare / oh , I forgot" treatment. Conversely , JWs only count active members - we have members who go to every meeting yet do not go on the ministry and who are not counted as publishers and don't show up in the overall figures.
"In the past 25 plus years I have seen or encountered jdubs exactly 5 times." So that will be exactly 5 times more often than the other religions mentioned in the list , then (with the possible exception of the Mormons , who sponsor a small number of members to do their ministry).
"I am a very outspoken opponent of religion...My parental units seldom mention jdub stuff lately even if I say something about jdubs.Are they tiring out?"
Er - go figure! The phrase "parental units" doesn't exactly suggest a strong relationship. Maybe tiring out from you!
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41
U.N. Scandal Clarfications Please.
by lowden insince i joined the forum a short while ago i was confronted by the above scandal, hadn't known about it , haven't been in touch with anything to do with the org for a while.
so i've read all the posts and questions and i think iget the drift, but what i want to kno now is why did they do it?
i hear their excuse of the library card, but that's obviously a load of tosh.
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dozy
A: There was nothing at all wrong with being an NGO or using the Library in the first place. If it could help third world people, why not?
Is this not the very criticism that opposers / apostates make of JWs?
B. The actual "wrong part" was the hypocrisy of bitching about the scarlet harlot all these years and going and doing this in secret.
The phrase "done in secret" deliberately is designed to give the impression of a culture of hiddeness & deceit. The WTS has dealings in hundreds of countries which involves lobbying & legal activities with numerous organisations , including governments and various agencies. To expect them to issue a press release each time they wrote a letter or did anything would be unneccessary.
Auldsouls questions:
1) Is the UN/DPI (as distinguished from the UN) a secular organization that has objectives contrary to the Bible (does it? - see below), hence, under judgment by Jehovah God? Deliberately trick question! The UN & governments stand under judgement from God ,but this does not mean that Christians (individually or collectively) can have no dealings with them. They are superior authorities (Rom 13) in position for our benefit. Reading through the DPI mandate and looking at its website , I can see nothing that would disqualify a loose association with such an organisation. http://www.undpi.org/
United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI) mandate Principal functions:
- Promotion of an informed understanding of the work and purposes of the UN;
- Planning, programming and coordination of information activities related to the priority issues and special events of the UN in consultation with the departments and offices concerned;
- Seeking support and cooperation from external organizations for the public information activities of the UN;
- Establishing productive working relationships with mass media organizations, government information services, NGOs and educational institutions;
- Translating into local language, printing and more widely distributing materials originally produced at Headquarters
- Organizing the celebration of UN Observances
(2) Did the WTS join the UN/DPI (as distinguished from the UN) as an Associate member? Yes. The key , of course , being that word "associate" - an indirect , arms length relationship.