Thank you for the link RunningMan, very good post.
SickofLies
JoinedPosts by SickofLies
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21
Failed bible proficies?
by SickofLies inwatchtower bible and tract society.
1985. life--how did it get here?
brooklyn, ny, pp.
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The Bible - God's Word or Man's?
by SickofLies ini guess my basic goal here is to express to others and hopefully get more support in my efforts to tear down the two worst and most inaccurate books the society has published.
those being: life: how did it get here?
and the bible - god's word or man's?
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SickofLies
GodIsRight, thank you for your input, but wouldn't you agree that your arguments fall under the category of "I believe because of X". I'm curious, you seem to imply that Israel’s existence is do to God's help (not an argument for the bible really), where in the bible does it say that Israel’s existence is guaranteed to last until the end of the system (if you indeed believe that the system is coming to an end). Do have anything specific that anchors your belief in the bible?
DavidChristopher, you seem to be implying that a reason for faith is that if we are wrong we're all dead, so better play it safe. Would that is a correct analysis?
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21
Failed bible proficies?
by SickofLies inwatchtower bible and tract society.
1985. life--how did it get here?
brooklyn, ny, pp.
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SickofLies
tmo, I found your posts very interesting. Trust me, I am researching my book very carefully, however, to be sure your argument about just repeating what you've read or heard can be said about anything. I believe my arguments have some originality to them, if you find other wise, please let me know. But in so far as the prophecy of the Jews returning to Iserial in modern times, I'm afraid I don't follow. I know Jesus talked about Jerusalem being destroyed, but where does it say that it will be rebuilt afterwards. While I agree that Iseral is still in Jerusalem, they are the most target group in the world for hate crimes and terroism, does that mean they are the true religion?
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Scary JW Thinking About the Benefits of Bird Flu
by Severus ini heard this from a pioneer recently.
"this bird flu will be the next major pestilence.
even if it wipes out millions, that would be a good thing because jehovah will be able to resurrect them.
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SickofLies
It's thinking like this that has the world in as much trouble as it is in today. I remember when my first marriage ended I got so depressed I figured God would never forgive me for the sins I had committed, I attemped sucide because I reasoned that all sins are forgiven when we die! Wow, I'm glad I'm free of that kind of crazy thinking!
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The Bible - God's Word or Man's?
by SickofLies ini guess my basic goal here is to express to others and hopefully get more support in my efforts to tear down the two worst and most inaccurate books the society has published.
those being: life: how did it get here?
and the bible - god's word or man's?
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SickofLies
I guess my basic goal here is to express to others and hopefully get more support in my efforts to tear down the two worst and most inaccurate books the society has published. Those being: Life: how did it get here? and The Bible - God's Word or Man's?
I guess I have turn atheistic since leaving, but its a great feeling, no more fear, no more superstition! I hope I can help others achieve this same state, not just former JW's but anyone stuck in a fundamentalist religion or cult.
“The Bible is unique in its popularity. It is an all-time best seller, available to 98 percent of the world's population in over 1800 languages. No other book comes close to its circulation figures.” Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989. The Bible - God's Word or Man's?
Popularity does not indicate reliability. Indeed, the opposite is more likely. Other best-sellers, such as Spock's Baby and Child Care, Von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods, The Atkins Diet, and Linda Goodman's Sun Signs, range from seriously flawed to downright bogus. Longevity is a better indicator of quality. The Bible rates well in that category, but it is surpassed by several other works, such as the Iliad and Odyssey and the Hindu Vedas and Epics. And even then, the quality that matters is mostly in how the ideas are expressed, not in scientific accuracy.
To a significant degree, the Bible achieved its large circulation by conquest, not merit. Native cultures were subjugated or murdered by Christian missionaries, and their works were destroyed. Even today, many so-called Christians try to force the Bible on others through political dominance; for example, by trying to get it taught in science classes of public schools. They act as though the Bible cannot succeed on its own. This is a reason to reject the Bible, not approve of it.
“The Bible is unique in that it is the most influential book of all time.” - Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989. The Bible - God's Word or Man's? , p. 8.
The Bible is not unique in being influential. Historian Michael H. Hart ranks Muhammad and Isaac Newton as being more influential than Jesus Christ, suggesting that the Qur'an and 's Principia are at least comparable in influence. Influence does not necessarily imply good qualities. Christianity achieved much of its influence by force of arms, including several cases of genocide. Part of the Bible's influence that made Christianity powerful was the fact that it allowed slavery and usury.
“The Bible is unique in the amount of persecution it has faced. No other book has been the target of such opposition and hatred, and survived because of the devotion it inspired.” - Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989. The Bible - God's Word or Man's? , pp. 8-9.
Persecution is not a good sign. When people persecute something, they usually have a reason. When lots of people persecute something, they usually have a damn good reason. (And note that this claim contradicts the claim that the Bible is special because it is popular.) Surviving persecution is of no great significance, either, unless you are trying to signify force of arms. (Devotion in the face of persecution is common to all religions.) A greater indication that an idea is favored by God would be if that idea arose again spontaneously whenever it has been suppressed. By this standard, humanism is superior to any other religion. The Bible has inspired probably more persecution than it has received. Christianity has a bloody history of trying to spread its Word forcibly. Much of the persecution it has received is due to the conflict that it itself has engendered. The Qur'an has faced a great deal of persecution, too. Given time, it may well overtake the Bible in this regard.
“The Bible is unique in its intellectually honesty. Its characters have real personalities. It portrays flaws of its writers and details failures along with successes.” - Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1989. The Bible - God's Word or Man's? , pp. 65-66.
The Bible is far from unique in this regard. The Iliad and Odyssey depict the heroes as human, and even the gods have personalities and failures. The Mahabharata depicts failures of its heroes. In the African Mwindo Epic, a major part of the story is Mwindo's punishment after he achieved, and then overreached, his power (Biebuyck and Mateene 1971). Thor's weaknesses are the focus of part of The Prose Edda. Examples can be multiplied from all parts of the world. People prefer stories about real people, and real people are fallible, so that is what people write about. - Enjoy! Anyone else know of anyother arguments to refute the bible being inspired??
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21
Failed bible proficies?
by SickofLies inwatchtower bible and tract society.
1985. life--how did it get here?
brooklyn, ny, pp.
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SickofLies
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. 1985. Life--How Did It Get Here? Brooklyn, NY, pp. 216-223.
"The Bible contains many prophecies that have accurately been fulfilled, proving it is a divine source."
There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled:
- Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred.
- Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.
- Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it has not, it can be said that according to prophecy, it will.
- Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they have not. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made.
- Self-fulfillment. A person can act deliberately to satisfy a known prophecy.
There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories. In biblical times, prophecies were not simply predictions. They were warnings of what could or would happen if things did not change. They were meant to influence people's behavior. If the people heeded the prophecy, the events would not come to pass; Jonah 3 gives an example. A fulfilled prophecy was a failed prophecy, because it meant people did not heed the warning. Other religions claim many fulfilled prophecies, too.
Other people would also argue that divinity is not shown by miracles. The Bible itself says true prophecies may come elsewhere than from God (Deut. 13:1-3), as may other miracles (Exod. 7:22, Matt. 4:8). Some people say that to focus on proofs is to miss the whole point of faith (John 20:29).
The Bible also contains failed prophecies, in the sense that things God said would happen did not (Skeptic's Annotated Bible n.d.). For example:
- Joshua said that God would, without fail, drive out the Jebusites and Canaanites, among others (Josh. 3:9-10). But those tribes were not driven out (Josh. 15:63, 17:12-13).
- Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years (29:10-14), and Nebuchadrezzar would plunder it (29:19-20). Neither happened.
I would like to know if anyone else knows of any other proficies in the bible that have not come true (expecially internal bible proficies), also what are some proficies that have multiple fullfilments through out history (as Daniel's proficies clearly do). I would be sincerely interested in your replies as I am planning on writing a book on the subject (actually the subject is evolution, but will contain parts about the bible and creationism).
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Turns out... I'm not so smart! Why the difference?
by misspeaches inafter exactly 1 year on discovering jwd and working through emotions, feelings etc, i feel the need to relate this.. as a witness i really believed i was smart.
i believe i must have had a high iq.
that i knew so many more things then others.
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SickofLies
This may sound silly, but your as smart as you think you are. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Remember the brain is like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. Perhaps you felt smarter as an active JW because you use to read more and study hard. These are not things you have to give up once you leave, in fact you should do the oppisite. Take up a new hobby, check out the local library, watch the discovery channel. Whatever, just always be trying to expand your mind and learn new things.
Live life to the fullest and don't look back.
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Does the bible really agree with science?
by SickofLies inhere's some food for thought, many jw's point out that the bible isn't a scientific text book, but when it comments on science its always correct.
they site many examples to try and prove this.
here's some you can throw back at them:leviticus 11:6 states that rabbits chew their cud.
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SickofLies
To understand general relativity you have to first understand special relativity. Special relativity says that all laws of physics are constant in enertal frames of reference and that the speed of light is constant for all these. However, special relativity deals only with non-accelerated reference frames, where general relativity deals with accelerated reference frames and is much more complicated. General relativity gives us a complete picture of gravity by tell us that space and time are interconnected and mass and energy are conserved.
In no way do I believe that any of these ideas are found in the bible.
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Does the bible really agree with science?
by SickofLies inhere's some food for thought, many jw's point out that the bible isn't a scientific text book, but when it comments on science its always correct.
they site many examples to try and prove this.
here's some you can throw back at them:leviticus 11:6 states that rabbits chew their cud.
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SickofLies
Here's some food for thought, many JW's point out that the bible isn't a scientific text book, but when it comments on science its always correct. They site many examples to try and prove this. Here's some you can throw back at them:
- Leviticus 11:6 states that rabbits chew their cud.
- Leviticus 11:20-23 speaks of four-legged insects, including grasshoppers.
- 1 Chronicles 16:30 and Psalm 93:1 state that the earth is immobile; yet it not only revolves and orbits the sun but is also influenced by the gravitational pull of other bodies.
- In Genesis 1, Adam is created after other animals; In Genesis 2, he appears before animals.
Here's another point to ponder; in Gensis 2 Adam is said to have named all the animals, then Eve is created, then in Gensis 5, it says that Adam was 120 years old when he had Seth. Now lets think about this for a second, according to Richard Dwakins there are about 40 million unique species on the earth today, now given that most of them have evolved from a common anstestor recently like the many breeds of dogs, I think its safe to reduce that number to around 1 million. If you were to do nothing but name one animal ever 30 seconds 12 hours a day it would take you over 120 years to finish this task for 1 million species.
Lets look at some specific points that witness use to prove the bible:
Claim: The Bible says the earth is round, showing that its authors were inspired to understand science beyond their time.
The passage saying the earth is round is Isaiah 40:22:
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
This passage may reasonably be interpreted as referring to a flat circular earth with the heavens forming a dome above it. Such an interpretation is consistent with other passages of the Bible which refer to a solid firmament (Gen. 1:6-20, 7:11; Ezekiel 1:22-26; Job 9:8, 22:14, etc.). It is also consistent with the cosmology common in neighboring cultures. Indeed the catholic church for many years taught that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth (see above). Isaiah 11:12 refers to the "four quarters of the earth", but we do not take that as indicative of the earth's shape. There are other instances where the bible's passages would suggest a flat earth, think of when Satan took Jesus to the top of a high moutain and showed him "all the kingdoms of the earth". I'm sure that there are many more passages like this.
Lets look at one more claim: The Bible describes medical and sanitary practices remarkable for the time. It says you should bury your excrement (Deut. 23:13). It requires people to wash themselves after touching a dead body (Numbers 19:11-22). It notes that the eighth day after birth is the safest time to perform circumcisions (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:2-3).
Responce: Accuracy on one point does not show overall accuracy. Genesis 30:25-33, for example, describes a breeding program based on sympathetic magic. Deuteronomy 23:9-14 is not about hygiene. The purpose of burying excrement is so God will not be offended by seeing anything indecent and turn away. The idea is religious; uncleanliness would make one unfit for a religious war. There is also a danger that exposed excrement could be found by the enemy and used magically against one (Scott 1979).
Numbers 19:11-22 is not about hygiene. It refers to ritual purification conducted by sprinkling water, not washing with it. The purification is to be done not immediately after touching the body, as good health practice would demand, but on the third and seventh days. Whoever fails to perform the ritual is unclean and must be ostracized from Israel. Basically, it is a superstitious taboo. Similar taboos against people who have touched dead bodies appear to be universal in Polynesia (Frazer 1993, 206). Furthermore, unless they have died from pestilence or have been decaying for a few days, dead bodies are no less clean than live ones. The Bible does not include directives that really would indicate good medical practices, such as burying feces downhill from the source for drinking water, and washing ones hands in clean water in circumstances that really would prevent spreading dangerous germs. Attributing a requirement of some special knowledge to account for knowledge of good health practices assumes the ancient Hebrews were idiots. People can often see the results that come from bad practices. -
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What do you make of the Daniel Book
by lost_light06 ini went to my first bookstudy in at least 4 weeks the other night.
we were studying the daniel book.
this particular study had to do with the king of the north and the king of the south in our modern day.
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SickofLies
The 2,300 days constitute a prophetic period. Hence, a prophetic year of 360 days is involved.
I'm glad you brought this up as this was one of the first things I really noticed that got me to start seriously questionong the society on their teachings. Now I'm not sure on this one, as I haven't been able to find a good answer yet in the societies literature, but wouldn't a 360 day year change the date of 1914? Lets conisder the next paragraph for a second.
the 2,300 days must have begun when it previously was in the "right condition" from God’s standpoint. At the earliest, this was on June 1, 1938, when The Watchtower published part 1 of the article "Organization." Part 2 appeared in the issue of June ;15, 1938. Counting 2,300 days (6 years, 4 months, and 20 days on the Hebrew calendar) from June 1 or 15, 1938, brings us to October 8 or 22, 1944. On the first day of a special assembly held at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., on September 30 and October 1, 1944, the Watch Tower Society’s president spoke on the subject "The Theocratic Alignment Today." At the annual corporate meeting on October 2, the Society’s charter was amended in an effort to bring it as close to a theocratic arrangement as the law would allow. With the publication of clarified Biblical requirements, theocratic organization was soon more fully installed in the congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Please note that October 2, 1944 where the proficey finally see's it complete fullfilment, is not a peroid of 2,300 days! I brought this point up to my book study conductor after we did this study and he said that he wasn't sure why the dates didn't match up eactly as the proficy said that should be he said "we are never sure about proficey until it is fullfiled, even then sometimes we can't be 100% sure." So to answer the question about what I think of the book of Daniel, I think that it is written so vaguely, that it has to come true sooner or later. Think about it, governments come and go, how could you not find governments or kingdoms that fit the proficies given enough time?