Has anyone seen this?
http://www.poconorecord.com/2001/local/fxp40917.htm
Defender
JoinedPosts by Defender
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18
JW fined for going door-to-door
by Defender inhas anyone seen this?.
http://www.poconorecord.com/2001/local/fxp40917.htm
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Defender
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113
Next get together in Toronto!!! :-)
by peterstride inhi gang, .
to make it easier for the out of towners (especially the ones driving in from the us), how does everyone feel about having our next get together on a saturday...say saturday, august 18th, starting at 4pm?
(i'll be working on the 11th and the 25th...).
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Defender
Hi Peter,
There is a chance I might be in TO around that time.
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22
I didn't KNOW--w-w- THIS ! ! !
by ros ini just learned something from a post on the old h2o that has me steaming!.
(some of us still occasionally post there, including--bless his heart--kent.).
according to one poster, there seems to be something reallllly steaming at bethel since 1997 (assuming the guy knows what he's alluding).
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Defender
Ros,
I knew of an "annointed" elderly sister, who passed away, that paid the society all of her pension savings. Then when the sister needed to be put in a home for the elderly, the society started to pay back the sister. That sister was well known in Canada, her story was in one of the WT. She lived to be 104 years old. I think the society ended up paying more than what it recieved. The sister was placed under the care of 3 to 4 congregations in her area in order to visit her and provide for her needs. I am not sure if the congregations also paid some of the home's expenses as well.
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WT July 1, 2001 (part II)
by Defender inthe second study article and the ensuing reading article contain many interesting points.
i thought of sharing some of them with you.. the second article entitled share in the joy of giving carries with it many positive admonitions, but mostly centered around the spiritual side of giving where the main thrust is on disciple making.. while it is true that disciple making is gods will but we must remember that it is gods paramount will that we ourselves become true disciples to jesus christ.
becoming disciples to an organization, to a religion, to a man or a group of persons and then engage in adding more persons to such discipleship is not what god or jesus intended.. on page 17, par 16 there it says; remember, too, that the disciple making work is a group effort.
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Defender
The second study article and the ensuing reading article contain many interesting points. I thought of sharing some of them with you.
The second article entitled “Share In The Joy Of Giving” carries with it many positive admonitions, but mostly centered around the spiritual side of giving where the main thrust is on disciple making.
While it is true that disciple making is God’s will but we must remember that it is God’s paramount will that we ourselves become true disciples to Jesus Christ. Becoming disciples to an organization, to a religion, to a man or a group of persons and then engage in adding more persons to such discipleship is not what God or Jesus intended.
On page 17, par 16 there it says;
Remember, too, that the disciple making work is a group effort. No one individual makes a disciple, any more than one drop of rain nourishes a plant. True, one witness may locate an interested person and conduct a Bible study. But once that new one comes to the Kingdom Hall, the whole congregation helps him or her to recognize the truth. The warmth of the brotherhood shows the influence of God’s spirit…
I fail to see how this correlates to Philip’s experience in making a disciple of the Ethiopian eunuch. What about the many experiences of Paul making disciples without resorting to group support from any congregation, since non existed. Furthermore, it is true that a drop of rain does not make things grow, but Paul said that it is God himself that does that, and not an individual or a group of individuals in a any congregation, no matter what apparent warmth they may display.
Then par 17 has this to say:
Of course, besides sharing in the important disciple-making work, we as Christians also share in the joy of giving in other ways. We can set aside funds to contribute to the support of pure worship and to help those in need...
Bold is mine.In a six pages article under the heading of "Share In The Joy of Giving" the WTS could not afford more than four words in support of this essential part of Christian giving.
The next article entitled ‘Do Not Let Doubts Destroy Your Faith” has a running theme of an analogy comparing physical feeding to a spiritual one.
Under the subtitle “Doubt – Is It Always Bad?” has many wonderful advice:
"Religious exhortations to the effect that you should just believe and should doubt nothing are dangerous and deceptive.”
“A loving Christian is certainly ready to believe those who proved trustworthy in the past."
“Sometimes a person’s past record gives legitimate reason for doubt.”
“Although the [deceptive talker] makes his voice gracious, the Bible warns, “do not believe in him.” Proverbs 26:24,25.
“An ‘expression’ a teaching or opinion, might appear to emanate from God. But did it really come from him?”
“Exercising some doubt, or suspending belief, can be a real protection because, as the apostle John says, ‘many deceivers have gone forth into the world.” – 2 John 7.”
Countless times, I remember employing those very same admonitions to newly interested ones. It just never dawned on me to use them on my own set of beliefs first.
Then under the subheading “Unfounded Doubts” the article makes an assertion that to have doubts in order to establish the truth is not the same as having doubts afterwards. No, that kind of doubt can wreck the firmly established beliefs and relationships. It quotes James admonition in ‘keep on asking in faith , not doubting at all’ to make the point.
It is clearly evident that James was talking about an entirely different matter. On one hand, the WTS wants potential converts to raise certain amount of doubts in their own entrenched set of beliefs just so they can instill in them another set of beliefs. Thereafter, they must not entertain any doubt in those new beliefs. Whereas, James was talking about praying to God and have faith that he does listen and answer the prayers of the faithful.
Under the subheading “Maintaining Good Spiritual Health” the article has this to say,
“Think about that. How did we build a strong faith in the first place? “Faith follows the thing heard,” writes the apostle Paul. He means that we initially built our faith and confidence in Jehovah, his promises and his organization by feeding on God’s Word.”
bold is mineJust where does Paul talk about Jehovah’s organization? Instead, Paul talks about Jesus, his promises and the hope of everlasting life in the heavens. Things that the majority of JWs do not acknowledge, have faith in nor hope for.
To top things, the article highlights a new weapon from Satan. On page 21 it says:
“Satan engages in what might be called spiritual bacteriological warfare.”
I wonder what this sneaky devil will think of next.
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9
How Not To Be DA'd
by Defender inmany of us, who have found the real truth about the truth and have stopped attending meetings and have made known some of our views to close jw friends and family, are trying to live discreet lives hoping that we never encounter that dreadful moment when the mobile spanish inquisition suddenly knocks on our door.. it is an extremely emotional and heart wrenching situation and many would find it hard to deal with, myself included.
being prepared would certainly help.
being resolved to uphold our consciences is admirable.
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Defender
Thanks Farkel for pointing out our true feelings on these questions. And by all means, when we answer as you suggest, we most definitely wont be DA'd.
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How Not To Be DA'd
by Defender inmany of us, who have found the real truth about the truth and have stopped attending meetings and have made known some of our views to close jw friends and family, are trying to live discreet lives hoping that we never encounter that dreadful moment when the mobile spanish inquisition suddenly knocks on our door.. it is an extremely emotional and heart wrenching situation and many would find it hard to deal with, myself included.
being prepared would certainly help.
being resolved to uphold our consciences is admirable.
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Defender
Many of us, who have found the real truth about “The Truth” and have stopped attending meetings and have made known some of our views to close JW friends and family, are trying to live discreet lives hoping that we never encounter that dreadful moment when the mobile “Spanish Inquisition” suddenly knocks on our door.
It is an extremely emotional and heart wrenching situation and many would find it hard to deal with, myself included. Being prepared would certainly help. Being resolved to uphold our consciences is admirable. Scriptural experiences definitely help in giving us some model to follow. Christ’s example and also that of the apostles clearly indicates that while they held different views from the Jewish public of their times, they did not endeavor to separate themselves or “DA” themselves unnecessarily. Their ulterior motive was of course to help the Jews come to the knowledge of Christ. We can adopt a similar alterior motive as well.
The apostle Paul’s experiences is of particular interest since he endeavored to align himself to whatever situation he faced. While he was evicted from one synagogue, he would go and attend another. He did not take it that personal and tried to rise above emotions.
Similarly, today we can at least make an effort to be malleable enough to withstand the onslaught of the questioning barrages from the suspecting elders and try to prolong or postpone the inevitable.
I mean come on, we were taught by the best in the business of providing non-direct and twisted answers to straightforward questions.I totally understand those that would find this unpalatable, or simply cannot withhold their emotions or would rather prefer a clean break.
I will start with some questions and possible answers and please feel free to add to them.Q- Do you consider yourself a Jehovah’s Witness?
A- Yes, I am a witness of Jehovah. (Although, as a Christian, we are witnesses to Christ, but there is nothing scripturally wrong in being a witness of Jehovah as well.)
Q- Do you believe that the Organization is Jehovah’s Organization?
A- Yes, I believe that the organization is trying to do God’s will. (By rewording the answers, we can satisfy the questioner as well as our consciences)
Q- Do you believe that the FDS is appointed by Jesus to give spiritual food in due time?
A- Yes, I believe that the Governing Body is working in fulfilling Jesus parable. (Notice that we admit to the fact that the GB is working in fulfilling Jesus parable, though in their own twisted way.)
Q- Do you believe in 1914 as being the year of Jesus presence?
A- I believe that 1914 was a very distinctive year and certainly since then, there were wars, pestilence and earthquakes, signs that Jesus talked about before talking about the sign of his presence. I believe that it is only a matter of time before we realize the true importance of 1914.
Q- Why are we not seeing you in the meetings?
A- I will be attending more meetings, except that I am going through some personal problems and issues that I am trying to work through right now.
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GB Admits It Has No Answers, Blood
by Maximus in"in contrast with humans, who have a limited life span, jehovah never feels pressured by time to reveal his secrets prematurely.
this fact should prevent us from becoming impatient when certain bible questions cannot presently be explained to our satisfaction.
"modesty on the part of the faithful and discreet slave class, commissioned to provide the christian household with food at the proper time, prevents it from presumptuously running ahead and wildly speculating about things that are still unclear.
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Defender
Good post Maximus,
Let alone their vacillating issues re time settings, blood, generation and others, just how they can make such blatant assumptions is incredible. I imagine the GB standing before Christ and trying to impress him with such assertions like: “We were modest, faithful and discreet. Were we not?”
Their situation is worse than those that would claim to have done great works in Jesus name, yet Christ rejects them as lawless. At least those condemned are going to try to impress Jesus with the notion that “We were trying to serve you” though their inner motive was selfish. The GB on the other hand, is assuredly running ahead of Christ’s judgment in predetermining that their service is approved and that they are modest, faithful and discreet.
When in fact, faithfulness calls for discretion and discretion calls for modesty and modesty calls for utter humility. Even if one is entirely blameless, and has committed his life and all his resources to Christ, but as imperfect human and so called slave of Christ, one should be humble enough to admit that he is not modest, nor faithful, and definitely not discreet and let Christ himself judge him otherwise.
The other incredible thing , is how articles like these did not raise alarm bells in our minds, well at least in my case.
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DFing, DAing, and apostasy
by troubled ini have a question involving disassociating, disfellowshipping, and apostasy.
particularly daing.. the bible say where someone comes to you and does not bring "this teaching" or is an unrepentent practicer of gross sin, never let them into your homes or greet him; remove the wicked man from among yourselves.
and this is the scriptural basis used for shunning persons who are df'd or da'd.. but my question is this: when it says if someone comes to you and doesn't bring "this teaching," what specifically does "this teaching" refer to?
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Defender
Hello troubled,
Your question is valid and merits serious consideration. You are right in understanding that "this teaching" refers to the good news of Christ and his ransom. That was the focal point of the good news that Christ and his apostles preached back in the first century. In fact, this remains to be the main Good News to be preached to this day. Any revision, alteration and addition such as those that the Society has formulated constitutes a serious diversion.
Just few examples
1- Nowhere in the scritpures do we find emphasis and salvation atributed to an organization. Instead, it is Jesus Christ who occupies this sacred role.
2- While God's name is recorded as "YHWH" in the Old Testament and some has transliterated it as "Jehovah", it was not the main focus of the Good News of Christ. In all of Christ's recorded prayers in the NT, not once does he address God in his personal name. Not even at the point of his death at the stake. Instead, he referred to God as his Father and "Eli, Eli..." which means "My God, My God..." upon his death. This is something that JWs would find difficult to do.
3- The Society's reference to two classes of Christians is foreighn to scriptures. When reading the scriptures properly and undertanding the context, then you would realize that when Jesus referred to "Other sheep", he was talking about the prospective sheep that would come in from the nations and join the local sheep from Israel to become under one shepherd. The aposlte Paul also focused on one hope and one faith.
Therefore, the main issue is not whether the Society's shunning its DF'd or DA's members is scriptural, but rather whether a true Christian who after realizing the true intent and main focus of the Good News should shun and abhor the teachings of the Society and those that adamantly come bearing them.
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Who controls the WTS?
by Defender inmany exjws, inactive or those still in but see the many problems that are associated with the org keep asking when will the society change.
they keep wondering whether the gb is aware of the problems and if it is, why does it not do anything.
certain gb members might even comment privately about some misgivings they may have toward certain policies or doctrine, yet fail to act.. i believe there are a number of reasons, but the main ones are gb internal dynamics and external influence.. concerning gb internal dynamics, it has been known that in a tight knit authoritarian system, whether it be a dictatorship, committee based, or even sometimes democratic, the one that suggests a major change does so at his own peril.
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Defender
Hello MacHislopp,
I totally agree with you that many of the letter are "suspect". However, I remember countless times when I've taken newly interested ones to the meetings, conventions or Bethel, many times I heard similar expressions to that made by the lady in Mozambique.
The Society receives tons of mail. The positive and upbeat ones get forwarded to the GB and some eventually get published and the negative sounding or change demanding mail gets "filed" in the dustbin. The main purpose of this type of behavior is to promote the mistaken concept of divine direction. The Society thinks in the terms of: we receive good feedback because we have divine backing. Because we have divine direction, look at the positive feedback we get. As to the negative and change demanding feedback, they do not know what to make of it, thus they "file" it.
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Who controls the WTS?
by Defender inmany exjws, inactive or those still in but see the many problems that are associated with the org keep asking when will the society change.
they keep wondering whether the gb is aware of the problems and if it is, why does it not do anything.
certain gb members might even comment privately about some misgivings they may have toward certain policies or doctrine, yet fail to act.. i believe there are a number of reasons, but the main ones are gb internal dynamics and external influence.. concerning gb internal dynamics, it has been known that in a tight knit authoritarian system, whether it be a dictatorship, committee based, or even sometimes democratic, the one that suggests a major change does so at his own peril.
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Defender
Many exjws, inactive or those still in but see the many problems that are associated with the Org keep asking when will the Society change. They keep wondering whether the GB is aware of the problems and if it is, why does it not do anything. Certain GB members might even comment privately about some misgivings they may have toward certain policies or doctrine, yet fail to act.
I believe there are a number of reasons, but the main ones are GB internal dynamics and external influence.
Concerning GB internal dynamics, it has been known that in a tight knit authoritarian system, whether it be a dictatorship, committee based, or even sometimes democratic, the one that suggests a major change does so at his own peril. Especially, if the suggested change is seen as an indirect admittance that the existing or old policy was in error. The example of the four “rebellious” directors during Rutherford’s tenure and Ray Franz’s experiences come quickly to mind, but there are many outside examples.
If you have seen the film “13 days”, you may have noticed when president Kennedy was soliciting input from his lieutenants to resolve the crisis with minimum upheaval, the US ambassador to the UN made a suggestion and later admitted privately to Robert Kennedy that he had “cut his own throat” by doing it. The suggestion was for the removal of the US missiles from Turkey in exchange for removing Russian missiles from Cuba. This was a fair proposal, but it undermined US interest in Turkey and reduced US overall strategic nuclear advantage. But, adopting this proposal was what finally defused the crisis.
Another example was during the Iraq-Iran war. Iran was at one point pressing a military advantage by demanding that Iraqi president Saddam Hussein resign from office. He was the one that started the war. Saddam gathered his cronies around and asked for suggestions. An unfortunate minister made a proposal that Saddam resigns, at least nominally and temporarily, until Iran backs off. Saddam thanked the minister and then had him executed. Had Saddam adopted this proposal, hundred of thousands of lives might have been spared.
Although GB internal dynamics factor plays a role in impeding change, the other factor, that of external influence plays a much bigger role.
External influence comes in different shapes and forms and it is exerted in different directions. The Society admits to only one external influence and that is their claim of divine direction. Hence, it is an influence that comes from above. So far, the Society has not been able to provide any tangible proof for this, a proof that Moses was handily able to provide to the Israelites in Egypt. The GB had not been able to muster supernatural miracles, nor even their predictions and prophecies had come to any fulfillment. Therefore, proving that they are not malleable to divine direction because none exists.
Some organizations or ex-members attributes divine influence on the WTS, but not originating from God, but rather Satan. But again there needs to be proof of divine influence, whether it be from God or Satan’s.
Another external influence is governmental and legal. In the early days of the Society, it had shown quite intransigence towards this type of influence. With the passage of time and countless disappointments associated with failed prophecies, the Society had lately been observed to give in to government and legal pressures. This has specially been the case when the Society tries to open new territories in new countries.
Peer or lateral pressure is another type of external pressure. This type of pressure is generated by other religious organizations or ex-members. This influence is the least effective, as the more it is exerted, the more barricaded and entrenched the Society becomes.
Last type of external influence, and I believe is the most potent, and that is pressure from BELOW. That is influence from the followers and readers themselves.
It is hard to believe, but this type of influence is what gave birth to the WTS. It all started 120 years ago in Pennsylvania when an ordinary man who was interested in Bible chronology penned his first publication. It is not the words that he wrote, not even the doctrines that he taught, but it was the FEEDBACK from the readers that went to Russell’s head. It is not hard to imagine that no matter how absurd an idea is there will always be adherents. So was with Russell. At first, he must have been astonished, but then he must have wondered that for his ideas to have followers, then he must be doing something right. Grander yet, Russell thought that it must be God himself that’s shedding light through him as a mouthpiece. In the issue of WT July 15, 1906 page 229 there was a question from a reader about how Russell arrived to these wonderful “truths”. Russell had this to say: “No, the truths I present, as God’s mouthpiece, were not revealed in vision or dreams…..God’s due time has come; and if I did not speak,. and no other agent could be found, the very stones would cry out.”
It is feedback and questions like the above that made Russell and later the Society what it is. To this day, the Society is continually influenced by its adherents, especially new potential converts. As recent as the WT July 2001, the back page contains a feedback from someone who attended a convention in Mozambique. This is what she said:” I have never seen such a beautiful place as this in all my life! The bathrooms had soap and mirrors, and they even smelled clean. There were peaceful surroundings without the noise of children fighting. And no pushing! I saw happy , young people engaging in encouraging conversations. I was also impressed by the way everyone was so well dressed. Next time, I will bring my children and convince my husband that we must attend this convention.” (bold is mine)
Can you imagine what would be the reaction of the majority of the Governing Body members to a suggested change, say in convention format or content, after having read a letter like the above?
It is letters like the above and field experiences that drives GB internal dynamics to resist change as they seem to think that they must be doing something right.
We have all read, at least some of us have, the letters from readers page at the back of the Awake. These letters alongside the monthly and annual statistics is what drives the GB. They are their reason for being. They are the crux by which the Society plods along. In GB minds, these letters and experiences are tantamount to evidence of divine direction.
The problem lies in the fact that GB hardly reads negative feedback or letters. These get filtered out by the GB mandarins in the field like C.Os and D.Os and much so within Bethel by the correspondence and writing departments.
There is an expression that says :”A society inevitably gets governed by someone who shares its traits”.
So then, who created and primarily controls the Society? The answer is; her followers.