Posts by Defender

If they are just selling real estate and downsizing then that will appear bad, but the move to Patterson is giving them a fig tree of sorts that they can hide behind. They will cloak the downsizing and the move to Patterson with so much "Spirit Direction" and "Jehovah's Blessings" that the rank and file will not wise up to anything.

What would give them a much bigger excuse after the fact, is If some terrible terrorist attack or some other massive accident hits Brooklyn or New York after they move Patterson.

46

I Need Help Please!!!

by CW02 in

jw
friends

i'm a 24yr old non-witness who has been dating a 23yr old witness.

we met through a mutual friend.

when i met him i thought he was sweet and kind and the kind of guy i could see myself with for the rest of my life.

Defender

It is really tragic to hear of your ordeal. Jehovah's witnesses frown on marrying outside their faith. They apply the apostle Paul's counsel of only marrying in the Lord, strictly upon themselves. However, there are many experiences where JWs married outside of the faith despite peer and family pressure. The outcome of such marriages are always mixed like any other marriage. Some non JW mates suffered and continue to suffer, some converted and living happily, and some ended up in divorce.

Trying to explain JW mentality would require hours and still would leave you wondering. Your fiance is going through turmoil and indecision probably like no other time in his life. On the one hand, he appears to love you for asking to marry you, and on the other he is under a tremendous amount of pressure from his JW friends and family to never marrying you. If you are not a JW, then you are considered by them a "worldly" person, a heathen, an unbeliever, destined for destruction by God in Armageddon. So, naturally, under these assumptions, JWs are pressuring your fiance to leave you and in time, God will find him a suitable mate within JWs.

Furthermore, your fiance is under pressure in knowledge that if he marries you in some Church format other than JWs, he stands the chance of being shunned and disfellowshipped from the congregation. Disfellowshipping is a nightmarish fate for JWs.

In the meantime, your fiance is probably trying to tell his JW friends and family, that he will help you become a JW in hopes of trying to convince them.

For you to become a JW, is no simple matter. It is not like joining a club or attending a mass at some church. It is a lifelong commitment and a totally new way of life for you. There are things that you need to abandon and lifestyle changes that you need to adhere to.

One thing I can tell you is that you need to be in love with their beliefs more so than your fiance in order for you to really become a JW. This is something you and only you need to weigh and decide.

19

Are WE Going To War?

by Perry in

jw
friends

are we going to war?

whom shall we fight?

living in a city with four military bases allows me to hear rumors through the grape vine about military involvement.

Defender

Perry you said:

"Still, Jews persisted in Jerusalem , even numbering around 40,000 by the turn of the 20th century, while arabs numbered only around 7000. If Jerusalem was so damn holy to them, why werent there more of them there?

The reality is that the Arabs poured into Israel after the 1967 war..."

I do not know where are you getting your facts from; here are a couple of tables of population of Palestine from a United Nations University study. Hope that will give you an indication of how much moslem as well as Christian arabs vs Jewish population were living in Palestine at the time and how much immigrants came into Palestine.

Table 2.4 Population of Palestine, 1922-1942 a,b

Year	Total	Moslems		Jews		Christians		Others
Year	Total	(No.)	(%)	(No.)	(%)	(No.)	(%)	(No.)	(%)
1922 Census	752,048	589,177	78.34	83,790	11.14	71,464	9.50	7,617	1.01
1931 Census	1,033,314	759,700	73.52	174,606	16.90	88,907	8.60	10,101	0.98
1931 c	1,036,339	761,922	73.52	175,138	16.90	89,134	8 60	10,145	0.98
1932	1,073,827	778,803	72.52	192,137	17.90	92,520	8.61	10,367	0.97
1933	1,140,941	798,506	69.99	234,967	20.59	96,791	8.48	10,677	0.94
1934	1,210,554	814,379	67.27	282,975	23.38	102,407	8.46	10,793	0.89
1935	1,308,112	836,688	63.96	355,157	27.15	105,236	8.04	11,031	0.85
1936	1,366,692	862,730	63.13	384,078	28.10	108,506	7.94	11,378	0.83
1937	1,401,794	883,446	63.02	395,836	28.24	110,869	7.91	11,643	0.83
1938	1,435,285	900,250	62.72	411,222	28.65	111,974	7.80	11,839	0.83
1939	1,501,698	927,133	61.74	445,457	29.66	116,958	7.79	12,150	0.81
1940	1,544,530	947,846	61.37	463,535	30.01	120,587	7.81	12,562	0.81
1941	1,585,500	973,104	61.38	474,102	29.90	125,413	7.91	12,881	0.81
1942	1,620,005	995,292	61.44	484,408	29.90	127,184	7.85	13,121	0.81

Source: Esco Foundation (1947).
a. Exclusive of members of His Majesty's Forces (Great Britain).
b. Adapted from table, "Estimated Population of Palestine," Statistical Abstract of Palestine 1943, p. 2.
c. The figures for 1931 and following years are as of 31 December of each year.

Table 2.5 Recorded immigration and emigration, Palestine, 1930-1939

Year or period	Immigration			Emigration			Net immigration
Year or period	Jews	Non-Jews	Total	Jews	Non-Jews	Total	Jews	Non-Jews	Total
1930	4,944	1,489	6,433	1,679	1,324	3,003	3,265	165	3,430
1931	4,075	1,458	5,533	666	680	1,346	3,409	778	4,187
1932	9,553	1,736	11,289	x a	x	x	9,553	1,736	11,289
1933	30,327	1,650	31,977	x	x	x	30,327	1,650	31,977
1934	42,359	1,784	44,143	x	x	x	42,359	1,784	44,143
1935	61,854	2,293	64,147	396	387	783	61,458	1,906	63,364
1936	29,727	1,944	31,671	773	405	1,178	28,954	1,539	30,493
1937	10,536	1,939	12,475	889	639	1,528	9,647	1,300	10,947
1938	12,868	2,395	15,263	1,095	716	1,811	11,773	1,679	13,452
1939	16,405	2,028	18,433	1,019	977	1,996	15,386	1,051	16,437
Total	222,648	18,716	241,364	6,517	5,128	11,645	216,131	13,588	229,719

Source: Esco Foundation (1947).
a. "x" indicates that emigration was not reported.

source: United Nations University http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80859e/80859E05.htm

45

Events leading to Great Tribulation

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

i have believed that the great tribulation begins with some sort of nuclear attack on the united states.. events are emerging which increase the probability of such an event.. the archrivals at the end scene are the us and russia.

russia is in a dire state.

its economy hangs by a thread.

Defender

Proplog2

While there may be several indications that Babylon The Great referred to in the book of Revelations might after all be the United States, however, there are other issues that need to be considered.

Blood of holy ones is said to have been found in Babylon, indicating that at some point this entity will persecute true Christians. The US at present is not persecuting Christians, although one could argue that the US is protecting organized religeon in the US and abroad, which in turn IS persecuting true Christians. However, things could change to the worse. The US demographics are changing toward a plural multi-ethinic society that tend to favor more liberal values and less conservative ones. The current US administration makeup of so called Christian right individuals and the adoption of conservative policies might one day backfire and create a backlash against those policies and the entire Christian right culture.

Babylon the Great is said to have fallen and God is seen telling "his people" to flee Babylon before it is destroyed. You seem to indicate that JWs are alone considerd to be "God's People". I do not share this view. God's people are those that are truly following Christ and not some man-made organization.

One indication that would confirm the identity of Babylon The Great as the United States, is if one day we begin to see an exodus of some Christians from all denominations starting to take place. Remember that an angel in heaven is said to be proclaiming the downfall of Babylon and telling God's people to get out. This would indicate that at some point in time, true Christians would suddenly get an urge to flee.

A nuclear attack on Manhattan, while may not be far fetched as you seem to allude, would incinerate many nominal as well true Christians before they get a chance to leave.

6

Talk by a Branch Overseer (part II)

by Defender in

jw
friends

cygnus .

below is my reply in red to your reply in an earlier post.

i felt it merited a separate post.. .

Defender

Cygnus

Below is my reply in Red to your reply in an earlier post. I felt it merited a separate post.

Defender,

: Was it the will of Jehovah or Jesus to preach about 1914, then 1915, then 1916, then 1918, then 1920, then 1925, then 1940s, then1975, and finally this Generation ?

Could have been. How do you know it wasn't? Jehovah told Jonah to go preach Ninevah's destruction, then he changed his mind. Did that make Jonah's preaching invalid? Did that make Jonah a false prophet? Or did it serve some sort of purpose, even though God's judgment did not come as promised?

A lot of JWs automatically resortto Jonahs example in an effort to justify the Societys many failed prophecies and expectations, but they fail to realize the context. Jonah was specifically told by Jehovah to proclaim against Nineveh. Jehovah appeared to Jonah and talked to him directly. (Compare Jonah 1:2, Jonah 3:2) Just in this context alone, the Society fails the test of comparison. Neither Jehovah, nor Jesus appeared to, directly spoken to, or specifically told the Society anything. The Society openly admits this.

Furthermore, after ONLY ONE DAY of Jonahs proclamation, (remember that Nineveh was a great city great to God, with walking distance of three days) Ninevehs inhabitants including their king began put faith in God, proclaiming a fast and putting on sackcloth, from the greatest one of them even to the least one of them. Jonah 3:5-9

Despite more than 120 YEARS of JWs proclamations, they have hardly made any comparative results. On the contrary, the failed prophecies, proclamations, date settings and other doctrines had made the reverse effect on people in general. It had dulled the senses of the world and made Gods real word and prophecies a mockery. JWs repetitive speculation and date setting, while managing to recruit many hapless ones, it had turned the majority of people away from God.

More specifically, JWs failed prophecies and date setting ran against the explicit command of their supposed head Jesus Christ, when he said that it is not for you to know the time and dates. Also warning against following those that does. Luke 21:8

: Is it a form of true worship when countless JWs enganged in studying, preparing, underlining, talking about, and distributing a plethora of publications that taught the above doctrines?

Could have been. After walking and talking with Jesus for 3 1/2 years, and then spending 40 long days in Kingdom instruction ,the apostles still thought the kingdom would be manifesting itself immediately and upon . And yet Jesus didn't condemn them or stop using them.

The operative word here is THOUGHT. They THOUGHT between themselves that the kingdom would manifest itself immediately. There is a difference in thinking or speculating about something and spending a lifetime in dogmatically proclaiming it as the truth of the hour.

Had the apostles engaged themselves and others for over 120 years in proclaiming such wild speculations, rest assured that Jesus would have long since condemned them.

: Is it a form of true worship when JWs recruited many other people based on the above failed doctrines?

Could be. Paul said that if deceit furthered the spread of the good news, may he be such a liar.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, Paul spread a different version of good news than that of the JWs. Paul could be excused in using deceit in order to win people over to the real good news, whereas what is JWs excuse in using deceit in order to win people over to deceitful good news?

: Is Jehovah or Jesus pleased to see hundred of thousands or millions of JWs become disillusioned and quit after having their expectations dashed or finding that their faith had been based on wrong premises that were ingrained by false messages?

Perhaps, yes. Jesus said he was looking for sheeplike people who would listen to his "voice." If people focus on human errors and not the significance of Jesus' ransom and the working of the holy spirit, that is their problem, and they most likely served for a date instead of truly wanting to please Jehovah.

So, in order for Jehovah to look for and find sheeplike people that would serve him with no date in mind, Jehovah instructed JWs to proclaim for over 120 years one false date after another. Seeing that not enough people had been disillusioned from the first false date, hey what the heck, lets dangle another false date and see who remains. If this line of reasoning does not smack of sheer mockery to the Most High loving God, I dont know what else would.

You are right in one sense though, in that a number of JWs had truly begun to listen to the voice of Jesus and started their path in following him instead of a man-made organization.

: Is Jehovah or Jesus pleased with the billions of hours spent by brothers preparing, printing, and distributing these failed publications.

What about the countless weeks and months Jesus spent with his disciples, and yet they failed to grasp even the most simplest of teachings? Jesus even resorted to referencing Satan in chastisement of his close companion Peter when he denied the destiny of the Messiah.

Refer to above comment.

: Is Jehovah pleased with the millions of dollars wasted in these publications. Is Jesus content in seeing millions of JWs spend their resources and hours on preaching false messages?

If it furthers the advancement of godly devotion, certainly. Who ever said JWs had to be 100% right about everything, particularly in regards to prophetic speculation, in order to be pleasing to God?

You are right in that a person need not be 100% percent correct in order to be pleasing God. But here again, you are confusing

the act with the intent. As I mentioned in my earlier post, JWs consider preaching, studying, underlining, distributing THEIR

OWN publications an act of worship or godly devotion.

Consider this;

The Society today boasts about the billions of hours spent in the ministry worldwide. But, when one asks how many of these hours were spent in visiting one sick or elderly sister? The answer is zero hours. Why? It is because JWs cannot count their hours when visiting a baptized sister.

Furthermore, how many publications the Society had published in its entire history only later wish they hadnt? Books,

magazines, brochures, LPs, turntables, tracts, assembly parts, public talks and others. All this was due to their ever-changing doctrines. How much money was wasted on this? How much time, energy, fuel, personal resources the average JW spent in studying and distributing these Wish-we-hadnt-published publications.

Additionally, the Society is aware that of the tens of millions of magazines that are published every two weeks, the percentage of those that are actually read is in the minority. A lot of JWs find it hard to catch up with reading all these magazines. How much money is wasted on this? How much extra stock of magazine each JW accumulate every year. I know I have hundreds. Let us say that each publisher has 50 mags. Multiply that by 6,000,000 active publishers and you get 300,000,000 mags at an average cost of $0.05 per mag giving you a total of minimum 15,000,000 dollars.

The apostle James clearly outlined what is the form of accepted worship. James 1:27 " The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation and to keep oneself without spot from the world."

The real questions are these;

How have widows, orphans, sick or elderly brothers and sisters been helped, when millions of dollars that could have gone to their support were instead diverted to fund the publishing and distribution of many wish-we-hadnt-printed ever-changing-doctrine publications?

How have widows and orphans been looked after, when millions of dollars that could have helped them were instead wasted on excess printing and stock of these failed publications?

How have widows, orphans and the sick been helped when billions of hours that could have been spent in comforting them were instead used in publishing and distributing these failed publications?

One wonders when Jesus finally returns and sits on his judgment seat, of which is he going to be impressed the mostA boastful record of billions of hours spent in qualified service and the publishing and distribution of failed publications, or a discreet one hour visit to a sick or needy sister?

Edited by - Defender on 14 October 2002 2:43:43

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16

Talk by a Branch Overseer

by Defender in

jw
friends

a branch overseer of an asian country who happened to be visiting some of his family members in our area, gave a talk this evening in the hall that i used to attend.

i have not been attending meetings for months, but decided to go when my mother, a devout jw, came to visit me last week.

the branch overseer had just returned from attending the annual meeting in new york.

Defender

Cygnus

You wrote: "...there is no blaming them for constructing a more contemporarily relevant message for today's world."

Yes, but does that make it any relevant. The question that needs to be asked is this: Is the ever-changing message being preached by JW constitutes the will of Jehovah or his Christ? A quick glance at the history of the Society's publication will quickly resolve this issue.

Here is a small example;

Was it the will of Jehovah or Jesus to preach about 1914, then 1915, then 1916, then 1918, then 1920, then 1925, then 1940s, then1975, and finally this Generation ?

Is it a form of true worship when countless JWs enganged in studying, preparing, underlining, talking about, and distributing a plethora of publications that taught the above doctrines?

Is it a form of true worship when JWs recruited many other people based on the above failed doctrines?

Is Jehovah or Jesus pleased to see hundred of thousands or millions of JWs become disillusioned and quit after having their expectations dashed or finding that their faith had been based on wrong premises that were ingrained by false messages?

Is Jehovah or Jesus pleased with the billions of hours spent by Bethel brothers preparing, printing, and distributing these failed publications. Is Jehovah pleased with the millions of dollars wasted in these publications. Is Jesus content in seeing millions of JWs spend their resources and hours on preaching false messages?

You be the Judge.

16

Talk by a Branch Overseer

by Defender in

jw
friends

a branch overseer of an asian country who happened to be visiting some of his family members in our area, gave a talk this evening in the hall that i used to attend.

i have not been attending meetings for months, but decided to go when my mother, a devout jw, came to visit me last week.

the branch overseer had just returned from attending the annual meeting in new york.

Defender

A Branch Overseer of an Asian country who happened to be visiting some of his family members in our area, gave a talk this evening in the Hall that I used to attend. I have not been attending meetings for months, but decided to go when my mother, a devout JW, came to visit me last week.

The Branch Overseer had just returned from attending the annual meeting in New York. His talk was Do You Have an Evangelizing Spirit. I paid more than the usual attention to the talk and here are some of the highlights and my own comments in brackets.

JWs are well known worldwide for their knock-on-the-door preaching.

JWs are commissioned to preach from the highest authority Jehovah God himself.

JWs are driven by the Holy Spirit and the angels to preach out of love of neighbor and not for selfish reasons

Jesus was the ultimate preacher and he commanded his disciples to go out and make disciples.

The apostle Paul preached

We are in the 21 century and things are getting worse.

Today, Jesus is enthroned in heaven since 1914 and is having his agent on earth the Faithful and Discreet Slave carry on the feeding and organizing the preaching efforts .

It is imperative to have the sense of urgency to preach

We need to more than double the efforts in comparison with the Israelites marching around once every day BUT SEVEN times the seventh day.

Do you have an evangelizing spirit; in the full time ministry or part time? Jehovah will bless your efforts.

(Throughout the whole talk, the speaker never alluded as to what exactly is the message that suddenly deserves a great urgency to preach. Apart from indirect inferences to imminent destruction and everlasting life, he never gave details as to what constitutes good news.

JWs put a lot of emphasis on the means and not on the ends. For JWs, the actual preaching activity is of itself an act of worship to Jehovah. The act of attending meetings, preparing and underlining the Watchtower or other study publications, placing a tract or a magazine, doing return visits, submitting their monthly service record are all acts of rendering worship to Jehovah.

While all the above may sound impressive and may appeal to the uninformed, however there is one tiny problem with all of this. It is the message. What JWs are preaching today is not what Christ or his apostles preached in the first century. What JWs are teaching and what they are studying is not inline with what Jesus and the apostles taught. Even their adopted name is a misnomer as Christians need to be witnesses to Christ and not Jehovah. JWs openly admit that their message is different from the first century version and yet fail to see the grave implications. When Christ in Mat 24:14, an oft quoted scripture by JWs, referred to THIS good news of the Kingdom he was talking about the message that he and later the apostles were duly engaged in preaching. He was not referring to some altered or embroidered message that would surface some 2000 years later in Allegheny Pennsylvania .

Not only that, but the message that the Society has been preaching had undergone and still does today continual updating and restructuring. What Russell started with back in 1874 is nowhere near what JWs preach today. Whereas, the message that Jesus Christ and later his apostles preached and that is recorded for us in the NT remains unchanged.

It is this unchanging testimony of Christ and his apostles that condemn JWs message as sectarian, biased and detractive. And all the preaching activities, the meeting attendance, and the preparations would therefore become an exercise in futility.

Here is a sample of the ever changing message of JWs:

The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874. Watchtower March 1, 1922

Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity." The Finished Mystery Pages 484-485

Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920.... Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy The Finished Mystery page 258

Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old. Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920 Edition, said on pages 89-90:

There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914. Watchtower May 15, 1922

This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct....Watchtower July 15, 1922

Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years. Watchtower, August 15, 1968 page 499

"Jehovah's prophetic word through Jesus Christ is: 'This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.' (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired an unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment."--The Watchtower,May 15, 1984, pgs. 6-7

Honest hearted JWs need only to reevaluate the message that they are preaching and compare it with that of the apostles to see the glaring differences. Upon close inspection, they will realize that the Good News preached by Christ and his apostles is much simpler than all their 120+ years of never ending stream of ever-changing publications. Actually, the Good News preached by Christ and the apostles would nicely fit in one paragraph. Yet, when one fully grasps it, its power is more than anyone can imagine. Its implication is far greater than knowledge of imminent destruction or everlasting life on paradise earth. )

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