Dido:
As far as mutations go, mutations can be all over the map--from tiny differences like different colored feathers, to large changes, like lungs that don't work as well as they should (or better than they should.)
Those biological facts are essentially all you need. If you can accept these things, you've accepted 99% of the BASIS for evolution:
Animals pass their genes on to their offspring.
Animals that have genes that make them better at breeding in their environment will pass their genes on more than other animals--meaning that in a few generations ALL the animals have those same genes.
Sometimes, genes change by themselves--that's mutation (and some other stuff too, but mostly mutation.)
I think so far we are in agreement.
Now, take those facts listed above, and multiply them across millions of years. It might take 30 generations to make a new breed of dog that looks completely different than the ancestor breeds--what might dogs look like, given 3000 generations? How about 30,000 generations? Would it still even be a dog?
Can one species of animal (a species is a set of animals that can breed with each other and produce fertile offspring) turn into two species of animal? (Two sets of animals that CANNOT breed with each other to produce fertile offspring?)
under_believer
JoinedPosts by under_believer
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537
evolution or creation? lets talk...
by Sam87 inok, lets have a discussion about where we all came from, evolution or creation?
(or whatever you beleive in of course) every one put down there main reasons, along with reasonable facts and backup as to why.. .
hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.. .
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under_believer
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537
evolution or creation? lets talk...
by Sam87 inok, lets have a discussion about where we all came from, evolution or creation?
(or whatever you beleive in of course) every one put down there main reasons, along with reasonable facts and backup as to why.. .
hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.. .
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under_believer
TopHat, other that posting links to essays on other websites, can you summarize evolutionary theory for me, in your own words? I have gone over your posting history, and I don't see any overwhelming evidence that backs up your assertion that you are well educated on evolution. If you don't want to give me a summary, can you at least tell me what specific part of evolutionary theory you disagree with?
I say this as much for my own benefit as for yours. If there's something I've missed, I'd really like to know it. -
537
evolution or creation? lets talk...
by Sam87 inok, lets have a discussion about where we all came from, evolution or creation?
(or whatever you beleive in of course) every one put down there main reasons, along with reasonable facts and backup as to why.. .
hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.. .
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under_believer
Dido, okay, let's break this down, then. Which of these components of evolutionary theory do you not believe? (Please nobody pick on this list. I know it's not complete or 100% accurate)
- That animals very slowly respond to their environment over the course of generations, by passing traits that are more suited for their environment on to their children (via selective breeding.)
- That genetic mutations can occur that cause animals to develop traits they didn't have before.
- That life has existed on this planet for millions of years.
- That selective breeding can result in two related animals that look and act very, very different from each other.
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537
evolution or creation? lets talk...
by Sam87 inok, lets have a discussion about where we all came from, evolution or creation?
(or whatever you beleive in of course) every one put down there main reasons, along with reasonable facts and backup as to why.. .
hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.. .
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under_believer
TopHat--it's "under_believer". unbeliever is a different user. AlanF is saying that you've demonstrated the fact that you don't really understand evolution based on your posting history. Again, I ask that you don't take that as an insult. Here's another example: I'm ignorant of silicon wafer manufacturing. I make my entire living as a computer professional, and I don't even understand how CPUs work, not really! I would feel unqualified to argue about chip manufacturing.
By the same token, you don't understand evolution, other than the fact that you believe it threatens the existence of God, and is therefore bad. If you educate yourself about it, though, you might be surprised at what you learn... Again, not an insult. Just an observation.
And dido, no. As I already explained, I am NOT an authority on evolution, but I do have a good working knowledge of it. You have demonstrated your ignorance, and explained that you are happy with this. Your last statement bears this out: "Maybe we don't want to fill our brains with evo crap."
How, and I'm really not trying to insult you here, so please don't take it that way, but how in the world can you say that evolutionary theory is false, when you don't... know... what... that... theory... claims? How can you reject it and call it crap, when you don't understand it?
I extend the same invitation to you that I did to TopHat: don't automatically assume it means "no God." Evolutionary theory is silent on the existence of God, just as the Bible is silent on the genetic makeup and heredity of Galapagos finches. Learn about evolution--you might be surprised. The worst that can happen to you is that you'll know more about how your fellow humans think. -
537
evolution or creation? lets talk...
by Sam87 inok, lets have a discussion about where we all came from, evolution or creation?
(or whatever you beleive in of course) every one put down there main reasons, along with reasonable facts and backup as to why.. .
hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.. .
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under_believer
So you say you have an accurate understanding of evolution? Does that mean you believe in evolution? Just curious as that can lead others to believe you DO!
I'm no phoenix, but I do have what I'd describe as an informed layman's understanding of evolutionary theory.
As do whether I "believe in" evolution, I really think that's probably not the best way to put it. "Believe in" sounds like faith and religion to me. It's like saying "do you believe in your microwave oven?" I have a reasonable expectation that if I operate my oven in certain ways, certain other outcomes will result. Nice, toasty, molten-cheese-filled Hot Pockets, for example. By the same token, I have a reasonable expectation that the predictions made by evolution will result in certain outcomes--outcomes that have, indeed, occured with every additional fossil we dig up, every additional discovery in genetics we make, and every new drug we design. -
537
evolution or creation? lets talk...
by Sam87 inok, lets have a discussion about where we all came from, evolution or creation?
(or whatever you beleive in of course) every one put down there main reasons, along with reasonable facts and backup as to why.. .
hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.. .
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under_believer
TopHat, you realize that "ignorant" isn't an insult, right? It just describes the state that you're in when you don't know anything about a certain topic. I'm totally ignorant, for example, of the stock market. That doesn't make me dumb, and it isn't a slam.
AlanF is (rightly) pointing out that you, and dido, and some others, are ignorant of evolutionary theory. You don't know enough about it to say it's false. Again--not an insult. Just an observation. -
537
evolution or creation? lets talk...
by Sam87 inok, lets have a discussion about where we all came from, evolution or creation?
(or whatever you beleive in of course) every one put down there main reasons, along with reasonable facts and backup as to why.. .
hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.. .
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under_believer
dido, how can you say that I believe in "evo" without any evidence? You don't know me and you certainly don't know how I came to reject the Genesis account as being a literal description of the origin of the universe.
Come on. Are you really proud of the way you're acting? Do your answers to the people who disagree with you seem like grown-up behavior? You're just lashing out. Why don't you take a couple of days to cool down and think about why you feel so threatened that you're acting like this? -
537
evolution or creation? lets talk...
by Sam87 inok, lets have a discussion about where we all came from, evolution or creation?
(or whatever you beleive in of course) every one put down there main reasons, along with reasonable facts and backup as to why.. .
hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.. .
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under_believer
Hopefully this doesnt start to many arguments, lol.
lol, indeed.
I have had run-ins with dido before too. In my case, it was my skepticism about the existence of demons/ghosts/evils spirits and my unwillingness to accept that the Watchtower Study is a form of hypnosis.
Yes, she believes those things, too. At one point, she told me that I "put up too hard a barrier to accept or believe something" in response to my request for evidence. She lives in a manufactured reality; her statement at the time was "I think you either believe [...] or you don't. I choose to. I haven't got any evidence, how can you prove something like that?"
In other words--choose what you believe in. Define your own reality, and stick with it. It boggles my mind that anyone would be willing to simply believe, without evidence, but that is the world in which we live.
Regarding the topic at hand, it was my increasingly accurate understanding of evolution that was the original, sole, primary reason why I started falling out of "the truth." Many other things shook loose later--but the scornful, arrogant, ignorant way the Society dealt with evolution is what originally made me believe that they didn't have the truth.
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Masturbation is a Gift From Jehovah (Stupid Awake 11/06)
by metatron indoes that title sound blasphemous?
well, i'm sorry if it does - but who ever imagines what the world would be like if sexual urges .
could not be satisfied by oneself?
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under_believer
I regret commenting on the sociobiological basis for rape. I admit that I was just parroting back politically correct things I had heard elsewhere. In reality, I am not well-informed enough to comment on the subject, and a cursory glance at the available material convinces me that while my assertion has a certain merit, it does not have universal consensus and that there are other theories that deserve consideration. Without accepting or denying alternate propositions (such as that that rape is always sexually motivated) I withdraw my assertion that it is never sexually motivated.
Also--Bad Girl, the Society does not use Onan to justify their masturbation ban. Quite the opposite, in fact:*** g87 9/8 p. 19 How Serious Is Masturbation? ***
God executed Onan for "wasting his semen on the earth." However, interrupted intercourse, not masturbation, was involved. Furthermore, the execution was because Onan selfishly failed to perform brother-in-law marriage in order to continue his deceased brother’s family line. (Genesis 38:1-10) The "emission of semen" mentioned at Leviticus 15:16-18 apparently refers, not to masturbation, but to a nocturnal emission as well as to marital sex relations. -
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Masturbation is a Gift From Jehovah (Stupid Awake 11/06)
by metatron indoes that title sound blasphemous?
well, i'm sorry if it does - but who ever imagines what the world would be like if sexual urges .
could not be satisfied by oneself?
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under_believer
Okay fine. Wanking is good. I will grant you that. :)