Posts by Crispus

42

Father of the Lie

by elder-schmelder in

can someone show me a verse that shows satan telling a lie?.

.

elder-schmelder.

[quote]Can someone show me a verse that shows Satan telling a lie?[/quote]

Though it doesn't specifically say it's a lie I'm sure this was a lie:

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
(Matthew 4:8-9)

[quote]Why are their motha f'ing snakes in this motha f'in Garden![/quote]

I like the edited version better. It still cracks me up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4t6zNZ-b0A

14

A Stumbling Block to Faith

by Crispus in

i posted this on a couple of other boards but as so far no jw has responded to the points i made.

"god disposed of jesus' body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith.

" the watchtower, november 15, 1991 page 3 if god had an angel roll the stone away from the tomb and created different bodies for jesus "over 500 witnesses actually saw jesus alive following his resurrection, and his faithful apostles were eyewitnesses as he began his ascent back to heaven and then disappeared from their view in a cloud.

Crispus

Leolaia - The Society has a neo-docetic view of Jesus' resurrection. In fact, it isn't even resurrection, but a recreation with no real continuity between pre-Easter and post-Easter Jesus. They are separate entities.

Crispus - You are right. The WT said "So what happened to Jesus is no different than what happens to anyone else "Jesus was dead, he was unconscious, out of existence. Death did not mean a transition to another life for Jesus ; rather non existence."(Awake p.27 July, 22 1979)

The WT says that a person doesn't have a soul but is a soul, Jesus' body was burned up according to the law and his spirit returned to Jehovah in that it was in His memory. A few questions you could ask JW's:

If the aforementioned is true then what part of Jesus was raised from the dead?

If Jesus was raised a spirit creature then from what place his spirit raised?

Why was the stone rolled away from the tomb?

Leolaia - Paul's description of resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 is intermediate between docetism and physical resurrection; it is similar to it in construing the body as transformed into spiritual existence but it differs from it by insisting that it is a real resurrection of a body (albeit a changed body).

Crispus - the whole chapter is about transformation and 1 Cor. 15:45 is really the only verse in the N.T that lends support to their teaching about Jesus' resurrection body - this when not examined in context (1 Peter 3:18 and Heb. 5:7 are weak). No JW has explained why that chapter is written for only 144,000 people. JW's will also put out that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" while not explaining 1 Cor. 15:54; the mortal does not cease to be but is clothed. I've asked JW's to explain the two witness in Revelation 11 who, after being dead, stand on their feet and go up to heaven while their enemies looked on. So far I've had no response.

BTW, Leolaia, I've read some of your posts and used some information you provided on the cross and the stake. JW's will point out that the cross was used in pagan rituals but what about Asherah? This was a pagan goddess, the word Asherah is found in the O.T. forty times but in the NWT it's always translated as "sacred poles" and never Asherah.

Also, I saved what you wrote about the First and Last; that was very interesting and I appreciate you research :)

14

A Stumbling Block to Faith

by Crispus in

i posted this on a couple of other boards but as so far no jw has responded to the points i made.

"god disposed of jesus' body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith.

" the watchtower, november 15, 1991 page 3 if god had an angel roll the stone away from the tomb and created different bodies for jesus "over 500 witnesses actually saw jesus alive following his resurrection, and his faithful apostles were eyewitnesses as he began his ascent back to heaven and then disappeared from their view in a cloud.

Crispus

I'll try this one more time.

"God disposed of Jesus' body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith."
Watchtower, November 15, 1991 page 3

"Over 500 witnesses actually saw Jesus alive following his resurrection, and his faithful apostles were eyewitnesses as he began his ascent back to heaven and then disappeared from their view in a cloud. (1 Cor. 15:3-8; Acts 1:2, 3, 9) So thoroughly were they convinced that he had been raised from the dead that many of them risked their lives to tell others about it.—Acts 4:18-33. "The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived"

"if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus' disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things." You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, p. 144

The last statement presupposes that Jesus' body had been disposed. Why couldn't Jesus rise from the dead bodily if he wanted to convince his disciples that he was raised from the dead? Over 500 witnesses were so thoroughly convinced that Jesus had been raised from the dead in his own body that they risked their lives to tell others. What many of us, if not all of us, have missed is that for the Scriptures the WT cites to support their doctrine on the resurrection of Jesus (ie. 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Corinthians 15:45, Hebrews 5:7) the disciples and the apostle Paul would have to have believed that Jesus was raised from the dead a spirit creature in the first place. If they believed that Jesus rose from the dead in his own body then those verses don't support their doctrine.

Consider the above quote which says "at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things." This agrees with what both Russell and Rutherford stated:

"Our Lord's human body was, however, supernaturally removed from the tomb; because had it remained there it would have been an insurmountable obstacle to the faith of the disciples, who were not yet instructed in spiritual things - for "the spirit was not yet given." (John 7:39)" (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 129)

"Our Lord's human body, the one crucified, was removed from the tomb by the power of God. Had it remained there it would have been an obstacle in the way of the faith of his disciples, who were not yet instructed in spiritual things. They were not thus instructed until the giving of the holy spirit at Pentecost. (The Harp Of God, 1921; 1928 ed.; pp. 172)

The Watchtower's doctrine completely depends on the belief that the disciples didn't understand that Jesus was raised a spirit creature until the day of Pentecost. Looking at the gospels this raises some questions.

Luke 24:2-8 "They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " Then they remembered his words."

The women were specifically looking for Jesus' body. The angels knew this and said that the Son of Man must be crucified and raised again.

"In traditional exegis of the Gospels the term 'Son of Man' is held to signify esp. the humility of Christ's incarnate manhood as contrasted with the majesty of his Divinity denoted by 'Son of God'. Similarly it is thought to emphasize His universalist role as 'son of Adam' in contrast with the narrow nationalist conceptions associated with the title 'Son of David'."
(Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Chuch p.1290)

Since the angels reminded the women that the Son of Man would "on the third day be raised again," (and the women were looking for Jesus' body) they too were under the impression that Jesus would be raised from the dead in his own body.

Luke 24:25-27 "He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-45 "He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures."

The WT says that the disciples "did not fully appreciate spiritual things" until the day of Pentecost. But Jesus explained all the Scriptures concerning himself to the two men on the road to Emmaus and opened the minds of the disciples so they could understand the Scriptures.

John 20:19-20 "On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord."

Jesus showed the disciples his hands and side and they were so thoroughly convinced that they, and more than 500 witnesses, preached the message that Jesus was alive. Of course Thomas wasn't there at the time and wanted to see physical proof.

John 20:27 "Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Jesus gave Thomas proof that it was him by showing him his hands and his side. ("In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes." You Can Live Forever In Paradise on Earth p. 145)

John 20:29 "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.""

Thomas believed that Jesus had risen from the dead in his own body and Jesus confirmed this when he said "Because you have seen me, you have believed." Jesus didn't say that you have seen me and you have believed...although you won't fully understand until the day of pentecost. Nor does he say blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed for they will fully appreciate spiritual things.

So to accept the WT's theory that Jesus rose from the dead a spirit creature and God manufactured different bodies to convince his disciples that he had really risen from the dead we have to believe that:

1) The disciples didn't understand that Jesus was raised a spirit creature until the day of pentecost.

2) They made no mention of this in the accounts of the gospel and apparently weren't bothered that God had led them to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead in his own body.

3) Jesus explained all the Scriptures concerning himself to the two men on the road to Emmaus and opened the minds of the disciples so they could understand the Scriptures. Since, the disciples didn't fully appreciate spiritual things then Jesus must have kept them from knowing the truth, didn't fully appreciate spiritual things himself or, when he was recreated from non-existence, God didn't enlighten him to the fact that he had been raised a spirit creature and was appearing in a different body (or bodies) to convince his disciples of something which hadn't really happened.

4) Unlike Thomas, those of us who believe that Jesus was raised from the dead in his own body are blessed although ours is a belief in something that didn't actually happen.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

14

A Stumbling Block to Faith

by Crispus in

i posted this on a couple of other boards but as so far no jw has responded to the points i made.

"god disposed of jesus' body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith.

" the watchtower, november 15, 1991 page 3 if god had an angel roll the stone away from the tomb and created different bodies for jesus "over 500 witnesses actually saw jesus alive following his resurrection, and his faithful apostles were eyewitnesses as he began his ascent back to heaven and then disappeared from their view in a cloud.

Crispus

Sorry, about that. Yes, Blondie I'm the Crispus on beliefnet and the topic looks much better over there. There's no preview option (or edit) and I don't know why it came out without paragraph breaks. I used html format; does that have anything to do with it? If a JW says that the disciples didn't know that Jesus was raised a spirit creature and manufactured various bodies a good verse to mention is John 20:29.
<i>paragraph break</i>
Since, according to the Watchtower, the disciples must have believed that Jesus rose from the dead in his own body before the day Pentecost why did Jesus say "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed?"
<i>paragraph break</i>
If Jesus didn't rise from the dead in his own body then why are Orthodox Christians blessed for believing in something that didn't happen while there's no mention of a blessing for Jehovah's Witnesses and others who believe in something that did happen???

14

A Stumbling Block to Faith

by Crispus in

i posted this on a couple of other boards but as so far no jw has responded to the points i made.

"god disposed of jesus' body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith.

" the watchtower, november 15, 1991 page 3 if god had an angel roll the stone away from the tomb and created different bodies for jesus "over 500 witnesses actually saw jesus alive following his resurrection, and his faithful apostles were eyewitnesses as he began his ascent back to heaven and then disappeared from their view in a cloud.

Crispus

I posted this on a couple of other boards but as so far no JW has responded to the points I made. "God disposed of Jesus' body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith." The Watchtower, November 15, 1991 page 3 If God had an angel roll the stone away from the tomb and created different bodies for Jesus "Over 500 witnesses actually saw Jesus alive following his resurrection, and his faithful apostles were eyewitnesses as he began his ascent back to heaven and then disappeared from their view in a cloud. (1 Cor. 15:3-8; Acts 1:2, 3, 9) So thoroughly were they convinced that he had been raised from the dead that many of them risked their lives to tell others about it.—Acts 4:18-33. "The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived" "if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus' disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things." You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, p. 144 The last statement presupposes that Jesus' body had been disposed. Why couldn't Jesus rise from the dead bodily if he wanted to convinde his disciples that he was raised from the dead? Over 500 witnesses were thoroughly convinced that Jesus had been raised from the dead in his own body that they risked their lives to tell others. What many of us, if not all of us, have missed is that for the Scriptures the WT cites to support their doctrine on the resurrection of Jesus (ie. 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Corinthians 15:45, Hebrews 5:7) [b]the disciples and the apostle Paul would have to have believed that Jesus was raised from the dead a spirit creature in the first place[/b]. If they believed that Jesus rose from the dead in his own body then those verses don't support their doctrine. Consider the above quote which says "at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things." This agrees with what both Russell and Rutherford stated: "Our Lord's human body was, however, supernaturally removed from the tomb; because had it remained there it would have been an insurmountable obstacle to the faith of the disciples, who were not yet instructed in spiritual things - for "the spirit was not yet given." (John 7:39)" (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 129) "Our Lord's human body, the one crucified, was removed from the tomb by the power of God. Had it remained there it would have been an obstacle in the way of the faith of his disciples, who were not yet instructed in spiritual things. They were not thus instructed until the giving of the holy spirit at Pentecost. (The Harp Of God, 1921; 1928 ed.; pp. 172) The Watchtower's doctrine [b]completely depends[/b] on [u]the belief[/u] that the disciples didn't understand that Jesus was raised a spirit creature until the day of Pentecost. Looking at the gospels this raises some questions. Luke 24:2-8 "They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " Then they remembered his words." The women were specifically looking for Jesus' body. The angels knew this and said that the Son of Man must be crucified and raised again. "In traditional exegis of the Gospels the term 'Son of Man' is held to signify esp. the humility of Christ's incarnate manhood as contrasted with the majesty of his Divinity denoted by 'Son of God'. Similarly it is thought to emphasize His universalist role as 'son of Adam' in contrast with the narrow nationalist conceptions associated with the title 'Son of David'." (Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Chuch p.1290) Since the angels reminded the women that the [u]Son of Man[/u] would "on the third day be raised again," (and the women were looking for Jesus' body) they too were under the impression that Jesus would be raised from the dead in his own body. Luke 24:25-27 "He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. Luke 24:44-45 "He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures." The WT says that the disciples "did not fully appreciate spiritual things" until the day of Pentecost. But Jesus explained all the Scriptures concerning himself to the two men on the road to Emmaus and opened the minds of the disciples so they could understand the Scriptures. John 20:19-20 "On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord." Jesus showed the disciples his hands and side and they were so thoroughly convinced that they, and more than 500 witnesses, preached the message that Jesus was alive. Of course Thomas wasn't there at the time and wanted to see physical proof. John 20:27 "Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Jesus gave Thomas proof that it was him by showing him his hands and his side. ("In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes." You Can Live Forever In Paradise on Earth p. 145) John 20:29 "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."" Thomas believed that Jesus had risen from the dead in his own body and Jesus confirmed this when he said "Because you have seen me, you have believed." Jesus didn't say that you have seen me and you have believed...although you won't fully understand until the day of pentecost. Nor does he say blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed for they will fully appreciate spiritual things. So to accept the WT's theory that Jesus rose from the dead a spirit creature and God manufactured different bodies to convince his disciples that he had really risen from the dead we have to believe that: 1) The disciples didn't understand that Jesus was raised a spirit creature until the day of pentecost. 2) They made no mention of this in the accounts of the gospel and apparently weren't bothered that God had led them to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead in his own body. 3) Jesus explained all the Scriptures concerning himself to the two men on the road to Emmaus and opened the minds of the disciples so they could understand the Scriptures. Since, the disciples didn't fully appreciate spiritual things then Jesus must have kept them from knowing the truth, didn't fully appreciate spiritual things himself or, when he was recreated from non-existence, God didn't enlighten him to the fact that he had been raised a spirit creature and was appearing in a different body (or bodies) to convince his disciples of something which hadn't really happened. 4) Unlike Thomas, those of us who believe that Jesus was raised from the dead in his own body are blessed although ours is a belief in something that didn't actually happen. Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.