Hi Amazing,
I would never hold you to defending the procedures of the Adventists. I appreciate your opinion and feel glad that you share it with me. I want you to know that I'm not trying to argue with you. You see the policy one way and I see it another way. A difference of how we view it in no way reflects on what I think is an interesting conversation with an interesting person!
I will say that the way it reads to me, the JWs might as well adopt the policies. It has so many loopholes in it that it really could just be a face for the public with another much more dark reality inside the Morman-world. It just reminds me of the ways JWs sugar coat their doctrines and mislead people by omitting essential information and by downright lying at times. The Mormon policy speaks to what we, as rational people, would assume would happen. However it doesn't explicitly state essential information (like, we're gonna call the cops) so we as readers are left to fill in the gaps. It speaks to what we'd naturally assume would happen, but not necessarily to what would happen.
I see this as just the type of policy writing that would be perfect for the WTBTS. It leaves out just enough apecifics so that we're led by what we think would naturally follow, not what they actually explicitly say will happen. It reminds me of the WTBTS telling the Euro. council that there won't be any penalties inacted by the society on European witnesses having blood transfusions. But it leaves out the fact that people who do have them are considered automatically disassociating themselves and therefore receive the usual abusive shunning/spiritual death penalty. That'd probably old news by now, but I think you get my point.
I see this Adventist policy the same way. Now, I don't have any idea if they do or do not go to the police in cases of suspected abuse. I'm not alleging anything. I'm just saying that this policy has lots of squirm room. Are the Adventists slimeballs who'll take that squirm room? I have no idea.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the IDEA of the policy, I just can't help myself to ignore those nagging little alarms that go off in my head when I read it, that's all. Again, it could be nothing.
Thanks for your thoughts Amazing. I'm glad to talk to you.
detective
JoinedPosts by detective
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15
7th Day Adventists / Child Sexual Abuse
by Amazing inthe seventh day adventists are cousins of the watch tower religion.
i went to their web site at http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/main_stat41.html to see what they say about various topics.
the adventists, like jehovah's witnesses, believe in a new earth, a paradise, etc.
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detective
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15
7th Day Adventists / Child Sexual Abuse
by Amazing inthe seventh day adventists are cousins of the watch tower religion.
i went to their web site at http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/main_stat41.html to see what they say about various topics.
the adventists, like jehovah's witnesses, believe in a new earth, a paradise, etc.
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detective
Hi Amazing,
Maybe I'm just a bit skeptical but something still doesn't sit quite right with that statement, in my opinion.I would naturally be inclined to see the statement about sexual assault agencies as somehow inclusive of local law enforcement authorities but you'll note that law enforcement an dthe word police are specifically missing from their statement. I'm definitely suspicious. I would normally assume that notifying a sexual assault agency, particularly in the case of a minor, would mean the police would be notified as a result. However, in no way shape or form did they state that they would notify a sexual assault agency. Instead, they said:
"Establish referral relationships with professional counselors and local sexual assault agencies"
Hmmm. Establish referrals. Not NOTIFY agencies. NOT notify the police. Give a referral. Now, my doctor could refer me to a specialist but they can't make me go. It's OPTIONAL. I'm wondering about these referrals. I mean, they've set up all of these measures to protect and handle it within the church, so would a person be encouraged to seek outside assistance? Maybe we've got another peer pressure situation going on here? Especially when they are busy with "the training of more family professionals to facilitate the healing and recovery process of abuse victims and perpetrators." Now, does that sound like they intend to take this up with secular professionals? How much counselling would the pedophile in jail be getting from these folks? That is, if the pedophile actually went to jail. They said they plan to hold the abuser accountable. Won't the law handle that first and then they can demote them or excommunicate them afterwards?
"Endeavoring to treat with fairness persons accused of sexually abusing children". Won't a jury of their peers treat the accused fairly? Or maybe it won't get to the courts?I find this very suspicious, indeed. There is no mention whatsoever of notifying the authorities. I find this a very strange omission. Wouldn't notifying the authorities be tops on the list of things to do? Instead, there is the possibilty of a referral. Hmmm. But would you need it? After all, there are plenty of measures within the church to counsel the individuals involved.
I just can't shake the feeling that we've got another situation of putting on a good face to the outside world. -
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7th Day Adventists / Child Sexual Abuse
by Amazing inthe seventh day adventists are cousins of the watch tower religion.
i went to their web site at http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/main_stat41.html to see what they say about various topics.
the adventists, like jehovah's witnesses, believe in a new earth, a paradise, etc.
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detective
Where specifically does it say anything about notifying law enforcement agencies? It says they've taken measures but nowhere in that statement can I find a reference to notifying LAW enforcement. Is it there and I somehow missed it? If not, why would something so essential be omitted?
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24
Prophecy Blunders
by Brutus in" (watchtower p. 56, 1894) .
" (watchtower, p. 150, may 15, 1922) .
" (watchtower, jan. 1, 1924, p5) .
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detective
For Fred,
WT June 15, 64
"As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first century congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying. All of this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it.""The Nations shall know…", 1971:
There is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us. Jehovah has raised up a genuine "prophet" within our generation. Regardless of how Christendom views or regards this group of anointed witnesses of Jehovah, the time must come, and that shortly, when those making up Christendom will know that really a "prophet" of Jehovah was among them."Awake! 6/8/1986, p.9
"God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God...Jehovah's Witnesses."WT, April 1, 92
"This 'prophet' was not one man, but was a body of en and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Chrich, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Witnesses .Since Jehovah’s servants of today obey him as ruler, God’s holy spirit also reveals to them what season it is from his viewpoint.
Watchtower 86 4/15/1986 Page 18, Par 11Whom could the real "chariot" of Jehovah's organization roll up to and confront that He might bestow upon this qualified one the commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah? Ah, there was a group whose members had suffered religious persecution during World War I. Who were they? The Modern-Day "Ezekiel" They were a small minority group of men and women who had dedicated themselves to Jehovah.....
"The Nations shall know that I am Jehovah" -How? 1971 Pages 58-62, -
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Helping a Family Cope with JW Mind Control.
by Winston indear freinds,.
i have been asked by a concerned husband to speak to both his family and his wife family about jws.. his wife has been studying with the jws for some months and he is very concerned.
he read alot on the internet and knows they use mind control, and make false claims to be god's channel, but he cannot convince her of this.
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detective
Hi,
you can get Steve Hassan's website at www.freedomofmind.orgHis latest book is Releasing the Bonds: Empowering people to think for themselves. (Or something very close to that title). I also read his first book but the title escapes me at the moment. Releasing the Bonds addresses the Witnesses as a cult whereas the first book does not classify them as such. If I remember correctly, I think he credits Randy Watters for giving him the info on the dubs that allowed him to assess them and label them a destructive cult.
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God on Trial - #1
by Amazing inpremise: many who have read the bible over the centuries have accepted it as authoritatively from god, and have glossed over some glaring inconsistencies, contradictions, and shear nonsense.
some cultish groups have attempted to mimick the myths and twisted beliefs they have derived from the bible.
jehovah's witnesses are no exception to this.. this raises the questions: if the bible (as we know it) is from god, having his stamp of authorship and approval, then can we ever at some point raise serious questions about it?
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detective
Iwas just thinking about this- in a court of law you shouldn't be able to quote Jesus. As there are no books in the bible attributed to Jesus himself, you would have to quote someone else quoting Jesus. This would be inadmissable as it is second hand information. For that matter, I suppose you couldn't quote the biblical God either, as he just gets quoted a whole bunch by others as well. Also, there is the whole translation issue which would make info third hand, I suppose.
Hmmmm, I guess that'd really screw those child-beatens who say it's okay because it's in the bible so God must approve.Sometimes I really hate how people use God and the bible as an excuse to be vile human beings.
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46
1975 Reaction
by MadApostate inthis past weekend, one of the few remaining jw relatives who will still discuss jw stuff with me told me about his recently attending a home bible study being conducted by an elder.
evidently, the study had been told or had picked up some info about the 1975 fiasco.
the elder totally denied that the society had stated or even led people to believe that armageddon would occur in 1975, and he naturally blamed some individual jws for misinterpreting the society's materials.
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detective
You know said: "And according to Christ himself..."
Are you sure you don't mean "according to so and so who said according to Christ himself..."?
I thumbed through my bible and couldn't find the gospel according to Jesus. Go figure. Unless Jesus is speaking directly with you? Invisibly and inaudibly perhaps?
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un-upbuilding info uprooted from Great Crowd?
by detective ini'm quite sure i saw a post about the nh abuse case on great crowd the other day under their news thread.
in fact, the poster said he wondered how many opposers would jump all over the story when they got ahold of it (i guess the poster wasn't aware that many "opposers" already knew about the story).
strangely enough, that story is now missing from that thread!
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detective
I'm quite sure I saw a post about the NH abuse case on great crowd the other day under their news thread. In fact, the poster said he wondered how many opposers would jump all over the story when they got ahold of it (I guess the poster wasn't aware that many "opposers" already knew about the story). Strangely enough, that story is now missing from that thread! It's fascinating watching these folks do whatever they can to shut off reality. It's an unpleasant situation so they just shut it off. This says alot about the effectiveness of the organizations mind-control techniques.
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Blood, The Watchtower and Deceit
by Maximus inwhile much attention is given to doctrine in sites such as this, very little is noted about the watchtower societys intellectual dishonesty in its publications, especially when it comes to quotations.. oftentimes the societys writers will cite a scholar or author of some repute: "professor blank observes that blah, blah, blah.
" the reader assumes from the quotation that professor blank is in agreement with the organizations position, of course, and that the quotation chosen accurately depicts the authors thoughts.. heres the catch: the words between the quotation marks may be accurate, but the snippet may not at all faithfully represent someones actual thesis or position.
much like a newspaper ad for a movie that quotes a reviewer as saying "monumental!
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detective
My pet peeve is that whole H.G. Wells misrepresentation. Calling him a historian is like capitalizing on substantially smaller career detail and not on what he is truly known and respected for... being a science fiction writer. He just wasn't world-reknowned for being a historian. He was world reknowned for writing science fiction novels! The Time Machine is a classic!!
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22
the internet, does it really matter??
by astra inhi, i have been following some of the discussions about the internet and jw.
some people think that it seems to make a big difference, that it will seriously reduce wts ranks because people get access to all sorts of information and because they can get in contact with people who maybe have the same doubts and thoughts as themselves.. but how big a difference do you think that the net is making?
how many people do you think have withdrawns from jw because of infomation or contact achieved over the net?.
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detective
Well, here's my experience. I went to the library to get some info on the topic of JWs. Crisis of conscience and most of the other ex-JW books were not held at my local library or held at all in neighboring libraries. However, just log onto the internet and boom!!...whatever you want on the topic is right there. The internet absolutely makes information on JWs more accessible. How many JW sites are out there versus ex-JW sites? By using a basic search engine I come up with several more ex-JW sites than JW sites. I find it hard to believe that this isn't effecting their numbers. I think that fellow is delusional or in plain ol' denial.