Posts by PrimateDave

92

There is no such thing as Agnosticism. Agnostics do not exist!

by nicolaou in

many here seem to believe that the position of agnosticism is somehow more reasonable than theism or atheism.

nonsense!

it is a misconception to believe that belief or non-belief in the existence of god/s are the two extremes which glare at each other over the fence of agnosticism.

PrimateDave

I actually rather enjoyed reading those articles posted by startingover. They seemed to make sense to me. I can be agnostic in the sense that I am without absolute knowledge as to the existence of undetectable, non-human intelligences. I can be atheist because, with my current knowledge, I have found the evidence for god(s) lacking, and I therefore have "accepted the null hypothesis of the god theory: the hypothesis is not correct, ergo, there is no god." (Kid-A's words)

I find atheism very liberating. I no longer fear some unknowable entity who always has to be explained by other humans, at least in the sense of organized religions. For better of for worse, I am responsible for my own actions. There is no sin and no salvation. I live, learn, make mistakes, and hopefully improve my life to the best of my ability without relying on the superstitious belief in god(s) mediated by prophets, priests, or governing bodies.

Dave

35

Why is it considered so wrong to be anti-religious or aggressively atheist?

by nicolaou in

i'm not talking about the simple belief that there is no god and that religion is a brake on the development of humanity but the aggressive and vocal campaign to convince others of such?.

what's wrong with that?

why do believers feel so offended when i try to reason with them on the invalidity of their faith and the abusive nature of religious institutions?

PrimateDave

Hi Auldsoul,

I do enjoy reading your posts. I know that on this particular topic we shall probably agree to disagree, but can I play with you for just a moment? First, I must say that any debate has certain rules that both sides agree to play by. My point to Nicolaou was that on an open discussion message board, atheists and theists play by different rules, so to speak. There is nothing wrong with that. Anyone can and will post their opinion. If I may be so bold, atheists tend to follow strict rules of logic and theists follow rules of spirituality. From an atheist's logical standpoint, an extraordinary claim is a claim in the existence of someone for whom no concrete evidence exists. Let me pick on Santa Claus for a moment. Does Santa Claus exist? Yes and no. Certainly millions of children look forward to his visit every Christmas. Thousands of men dress up as Santa Claus every year at shopping malls, etc. But does the actual man exist? Logically, no. However, some may say that he does exist in the spirit of giving, the spirit of happiness and joviality; so what's the harm in telling children that Santa comes on his reindeer to give them presents every Christmas?

Does god exist? I, personally, have no concrete proof that he exists. I don't believe the claims made by Creationists because I understand the mechanisms of biological evolution. I look at the world with its complexity; the beautiful, the horrific, and the mundane; and I don't see god(s). But millions believe in god(s) and look forward to getting something from him/them. Many might say that the spirituality of mankind is a reflection of the divine in us. I believed in The God for most of my life. I would sincerely love to find out that He exists and really is a God of Love. If He is out there, he needs to let us know. And no, the Bible doesn't cut it anymore with me. I hope you'll try to understand my point of view.

Dave

35

Why is it considered so wrong to be anti-religious or aggressively atheist?

by nicolaou in

i'm not talking about the simple belief that there is no god and that religion is a brake on the development of humanity but the aggressive and vocal campaign to convince others of such?.

what's wrong with that?

why do believers feel so offended when i try to reason with them on the invalidity of their faith and the abusive nature of religious institutions?

PrimateDave

Hey, Nicolaou!

I have also come down the same path as you, from being an indoctrinated Witness (all my life) to atheist. Actually, I wouldn't consider myself anti-religious, so much as indifferent to religion. But, like you I sometimes feel like setting theists straight, so to speak, on this message board. I have started to reply to messages many times and decided not to. Lately, I realized, what's the point, really? Many of the posters will not change their beliefs just because I present what I think are convincing, logical arguments. I can type until my fingers bleed, and they will still come up with "well, you can't prove that god(s) don't exist." You and I know that the burden of proof lies with the individual making the extraordinary claim, but they will refuse to recognize that point. Well, fine. No skin off my teeth. Like the lady said to the telemarketer: "When I want what you're selling, I'll call you." Feel free to post those links to articles and books that support your (and my) position. Some people will read what you say and come to the same or similar conclusions as you have. Others will not. That said, perhaps we can all get along fine if we respect one another as fellow beings with feelings regardless of our beliefs. Celebrate our diversity.

Dave

6

God only hears and listens to the prayers of JW's!

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

this is what i learned growing up as a jdub.

it was one of the many reasons crammed down my throat as to why i had to go door knocking on saturday mornings when i was only 7. i heard it from the podium, from the annointed, etc.

that's right - everyone not praying to jehovah, through jesus, was praying directly to satan!

PrimateDave

How often I remember hearing brothers praying at the meeting, not to Jehovah, but to the audience! They would say, "Jehovah, we know this and that," or they would summarize the contents of the meeting for the audience. As a Witness it always irritated me when they would pray like that because it wasn't what I considered to be a heartfelt petition to god. Perhaps, to such brothers, Jehovah wasn't real enough to talk to, so they talked to the congregation instead, in Jesus name, of course. Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not claiming a belief in Jehovah nowadays anyway. I'm just recalling what I perceived was wrong when I still cared.

Dave

67

Born Gay?

by Sam87 in

jw
friends

hi everyone, just wondering what your thoughts are on people that say they are born gay?

ive heard that this isnt actually possible, and that there is no scientific backing to it, im personaly not gay but i was just wondering what some of you think on this matter, and if you have anything to back it up with, thanks,.

.

PrimateDave

Dorayakii, what an excellent post! Thanks for sharing! I, too, have experienced many of the same feelings as you in my own way.

I believe that you can only be proud of what you chose to do or be

I have often thought the same thing when I have heard others express "pride" in something for which they made no choice, which was a mere circumstance of their birth.

I believe that being attracted to the same or opposite sex is not a conscious choice like chosing between steak or shrimp at dinner. I found myself attracted to the same sex before I was ten. As a teen I engaged in some mutual masturbation with a friend, something I later confessed to a JC. I had a great deal of guilt, brought on by the dominant culture and my JW upbringing. Years later, as an adult JW, I made many friends with openly gay men, but I still kept my feelings inside so as to "not bring reproach on Jehovah's name". Well, I don't care about that anymore. Should I come out?

Dave

25

What would you say is the main reason why people didn't listen to us?

by JH in

jw
friends

when i started going out door to door, i was sure i'd bring a couple of people with me to the org.

i knew my parents believed in god and the bible, so i was sure i'd be able to convince them with a few simple verses that we had the truth.

but no, they didn't seem convinced enough to want to study.

PrimateDave

Because we acted like religious know-it-alls. Frankly, that's got to be a big turn off for lots of people.
Dave

49

How many are like me?

by JH in

jw
friends

i still believe in god.

still believe his name is jehovah or something like it.. still believe that jesus is his son, and he isn't god almighty.. don't believe in the trinity.

i believe in the resurrection.

PrimateDave

After being a Witness my entire life, I have to say that, no, there is no logical reason to keep believing any of it. You see, I stopped believing in the Bible before I stopped being a nominal Witness. As a poster here once wrote, I was no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses; I just didn't know it yet. I couldn't believe in the Flood or the Creation account. The more I learned about the Bible from non Watchtower sources, the less I could believe in it or its promises. The only things I can still believe in are Ps. 146:3,4 and Ecc. 9:5,10. I would love to believe in the resurrection and eternal life, but where's the proof?
Dave

16

The Bible's Candid Nature as a Proof of Divine Inspiration

by under_believer in

jw
friends

one of the proofs the witnesses (and others) use as proof of the bible's divinely inspired nature is its supposed candor in exposing israel's and others' flaws.

if it were written by men, the argument goes, they would have hidden their failures, inadequacies, and weaknesses.

so, we see moses taking credit for producing water from the crag; we see all of the israelite kings who "did what was bad in the eyes of yahweh.

PrimateDave

Logical fallacies: There is a God because the Bible tells us He inspired it. The Bible is true because it says that it is. The Bible is true because it tells bad things about some people, and nobody likes to have bad things told about them, so saying bad things about some people makes it true. Watchtower scholarship (and I use the term loosely) is simplistic and circular.

Dave

17

The Warnings of the Diabolical things we were told about

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

the warnings of the diabolical things we were told about every so often there would be a talk presented that featured some.

thing strange and unusual when an individual received the "truth.".

on certain occasions you would hear about how a person was.

PrimateDave

I am rational and skeptical in my beliefs. That said, I am still open-minded about The Unknown.

I do not believe that the labels commonly applied to paranormal experiences by the Watchtower Society should be used. There are no Satan and His Demons.

That is not to say that there are not unseen aspects of the universe that we have yet to adequately explain. What I do know is that there are people who I know personally that claim to have experienced a rationally unexplainable event. My first reaction is to look for rational causes such as drug use or sleep disorders, things which have to do with brain chemistry imbalances. Even so, I can give someone the benefit of the doubt. To such a person, the experience seemed real enough. Physical evidence may be available in some cases as well, though it is often by no means conclusive.

Whether an experience is classified as "evil" or "benevolent" could be a subjective consideration.

A close relative of mine who is a Witness has claimed on two occasions to have experience paranormal activity. First, this relative claimed to hear strange noises in the house when no one else was home. This relative worked nights and slept days. My brother lived there at the time. He liked to listen to heavy metal music. The "solution" to the "demonic" problem was to get rid of the music. On a second occasion, years later my grandmother lived in the same house with this relative. They did not get along well. One day this relative claims to have seen an apparition over my sleeping grandmother. It was assumed that there must be some object in her possession that was causing "demonic" activity. A short time later, my grandmother moved out. Despite my knowing this relative very well as an honest person, I can't help but wonder if there was some subconscious motivation to the "demonic" experience.

I have spoken to "worldly" people who claim to have had paranormal experiences. At least one admitted to being "high". Another was a twelve year old boy living in a troubled family who made his own Ouija board. Whatever their experiences, however, I no longer attribute such phenomenon to "Satan and His Demons".

I think that the Demon Worship of Jehovah's Witnesses is just another method of control over superstitious people. I call it worship because they are subtly taught to fear Satan and His Demons. So, they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Either fear Jehovah, or he'll leave you in the hands of a terrifying Satan. Silly. And sad. I used to believe it.

Dave

22

Wisdom and folly

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

i've been thinking about this topic for some time.. wisdom and folly.

sages and prophets in the bible texts and the wider ancient near eastern world.

apollo and dionysos in greek tradition.

PrimateDave

Well, I was a born in Witness. Still, I thought I had "the truth" because it was reasonable. I once looked down on those in "Christendom" who got the "holy spirit" in their churches because it seemed like folly to me. How could they, I thought, have god's spirit when the didn't have accurate knowledge? So, I figured that their "spirit" actually came from Satan who used it like a drug on churchgoers to addict them to the wrong form of worship.

I left "the truth" because I found out that it wasn't. I came to see the so-called reasonableness of Witness teachings to be like dry, stale leftover bread served with lukewarm water. At least those charismatics had fun in their worship. All I had were a bunch of worthless teachings based on an old book. That said, I still search after knowledge and seek reasonable beliefs, but I use logic and science as a guide instead of superstition and fallacy.

Dave