Posts by serotonin

125

I'm converting again.

by reneeisorym in

2 years ago i left jws.

i went to a baptist church because it was what my husband was.

i knew i wanted to go to church but which one i really didn't know yet.. two years later, i think i have made up my mind: presbyterian.. anyone have anything they want to share?

serotonin_wraith

Junction-Guy,

She doesnt live in Timbuktu or the jungles of Africa, or some Asian country. She lives in America, and the bible belt at that. Her children will be taught to function well within the culture that is all prevalent around them. Big Kudo's to Renee, at least her children will have a normal life.

I didn't have time to add this in last time I posted, but I am not entirely convinced even you think this argument is a good one.

I'm completely willing to be proved wrong though.

I've thought of a way that would help me out. I'll write out a little scenario which ends in a yes/no question. All you have to do is answer yes or no.

The scenario is:

A young couple from the US decide to travel to another country in order to spread the message of Jesus. The country they choose to go to is a predominently Muslim one. Oh how these people need to see the error of their ways! While there, they have a child. Such joy! Having lived in the country for a number of years and loving the place, they decide they will raise their child there. In order for their child to function well within the culture and be considered normal to most around him/her, will the child need to be raised as a Muslim?

Now according to the argument you gave, I assume you would say yes, of course. But something's at the back of my mind telling me you may not stick to your argument when it's a different religion being spoken about. Could you please confirm your belief that the argument you gave is a good one?

Should the child be raised as a Muslim. Yes or no?

Hi Burn,

If that is all they know, yes.

I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone on Earth who only thinks there is one religion in the world. Even back in the days of Apollo etc, it was known there were other gods being worshipped.

I suspect many of the things you believe do not have evidence either Sero.

I have good reasons for believing everything I believe, and you can test me if you like.

They stopped teaching about Apollo because they learned a higher truth. And some of the things they believed about Apollo possibly helped them to realize it.

I think they replaced one god with another, but if you are saying there is more reason to believe in Yahweh over Apollo I'd love to know about it.

jgnat,

Is this thread for renee any more?

A lot of people came along to give her a pat on the back and congratulate her for finding something to believe with her own free will. I too, give her a hearty pat on the back. What slipped in was that her own children would have their free will stifled by being told one religion is true at an age they'll believe anything. I don't want them denied the very thing we're congratulating Renee for, the complete freedom to make a personal choice about what to believe about everything around us. So of course I hope she considers this, and doesn't use her free will to deprive her children of theirs.

125

I'm converting again.

by reneeisorym in

2 years ago i left jws.

i went to a baptist church because it was what my husband was.

i knew i wanted to go to church but which one i really didn't know yet.. two years later, i think i have made up my mind: presbyterian.. anyone have anything they want to share?

serotonin_wraith

Well since Renee lives in America, it is only fitting that she teaches her children about Jesus.

Right, well you think what someone believes about the universe and the plan for Earth and every human on it should be based on where you happen to be born on the Earth.

I think that's a really sh*tty reason to believe anything.

So it's an agree to disagree situation I guess.

125

I'm converting again.

by reneeisorym in

2 years ago i left jws.

i went to a baptist church because it was what my husband was.

i knew i wanted to go to church but which one i really didn't know yet.. two years later, i think i have made up my mind: presbyterian.. anyone have anything they want to share?

serotonin_wraith

Junction-Guy,

If there is a hell, then you will be more inclined to not steal,fornicate, adultery, even if out of a misplaced sense of fear

The more secular a country is, the more likely it is that those things won't be done. So a child will be made to fear the consequences of eternal burning, where the fear of jail seems to be enough for others. I could say to a child 'Be good, or I will pull out all of your hair.' It may make them behave, but it would also be mental abuse.

If you believed in hell and it scared the heck out of you, then at the end of your lifetime you have lost nothing, except maybe a broken marriage, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc etc etc.

And if you're gay, you may miss out on a life where you could be yourself. You may miss out on learning about real science because you've been told God did it. You may miss out on getting real help to your problems because you talk to yourself (pray) instead. You may not think certain medical exploration is ethical, therefore possibly holding back life saving treatments. You may miss out on marriage with someone because they're not in your religion. You may feel it is okay to prolong human suffering by refusing to back euthanasia. You may deny yourself the act of masturbation in fear of offending God. You stand to miss out on a lot. The things you describe can be done without a religion. The things I described usually occur because of religious beliefs.

If I were a Jelly fish worshipper and then discovered that there was a hell, or that there was an armageddon, then basically I have been extremely fooled for a foolish belief, I may still roast for eternity, or may die an eternal death

And if Christians have it wrong, and one of the other gods is real, you may have to face their wrath, so why not believe in them and worship them? You don't miss out on much in this life, and you may get to live forever.

I'll also agree jellyfish worship is kooky. Yet there's just as much reason to believe that as there is to believe in Yahweh - making Yahweh belief kooky too.

So none of us knows first hand what awaits us after death--BUT we do have our own personal beliefs about God and Death, and those are personal to us.

Exactly. Personal to you. When your children are made to believe these things too, then it's not personal.

I'm also not making the point that religion is dangerous (in this thread). If people here are okay telling children their benign religious beliefs, I can only assume they'd be cool with people telling their children giant jellyfish in another galaxy exist.

Burn,

The first 2 do not refer to a belief in a god per se, but in matters pertaining to practice or doctrine.

Yep, but Renee isn't going to tell her kids about any old god, it's a specific god in a specific religion, and there are specific beliefs that go along with that.

As for the 3rd one, is there ANYONE around who worships pink jellyfish sincerely? A real god, it occurs to me, doesn't let faith in him die out once he's revealed himself . Why would he? and that makes me think, has the pink jellyfish revealed himself to anyone? So no, the pink jellyfish is not in the same league as the Christian god.

You've assumed Yahweh has revealed himself to people, and the giant jellyfish hasn't. You may say you could point to people who believe God has revealed himself to them, but then again I could find people who think there are giant jellyfish, or aliens, or that kind of thing, and you wouldn't believe them.

There may be more Christians on the Earth than alien or giant jellyfish believers. So how about when there were only a few Christians on the Earth? Were they wrong because they were outnumbered? If everyone started believing in the giant jellyfish, would it make that belief true?

So you can call it the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisble Pink Unicorn or whatever cutesy names you can think of to get everyones dander up, but what we are referring to the First Cause and Final End, commonly called God.

Assuming you are right in claiming there is some force that is eternal, you somehow make the leap from that to believing Jesus died for our sins. I can't see how.

There is no double standard. We teach our children what we hold to be true.

So you think it's okay for Hindus to teach their children Hindu beliefs, even though that may send them straight to hell when they die? As long as the parent believes it, that's okay. It was okay for the Romans to tell their kids the god Mercury was real? For the Greeks to tell their kids Apollo was real? Even though they were wrong, it was okay to make their kids believe in those gods because they believed in them, and passing off as fact things not based on evidence or reason is fine by you?

I'm glad we don't believe in Apollo now, but perhaps that change came about when parents stopped teaching their children Apollo was real, at an age where they didn't know better. We're in the exact same situation now with the modern gods.

125

I'm converting again.

by reneeisorym in

2 years ago i left jws.

i went to a baptist church because it was what my husband was.

i knew i wanted to go to church but which one i really didn't know yet.. two years later, i think i have made up my mind: presbyterian.. anyone have anything they want to share?

serotonin_wraith

What's the difference between telling a child

a. Armageddon is close, so be a good JW and survive

b. Be a good Christian so that you don't burn forever

c. Worship a pink jellyfish

Answer: Nothing. The beliefs are different, but the proof for all three is non existent. I'll even go as far as to say worshipping the pink jellyfish could be the most benign one there, but I can't see that argument swaying anyone to think it's okay to teach children that.

Another question: Would any parent of young children here be okay with the idea of their child being taken to learn about Hinduism every week as fact instead of Christianity? If not, why should they be told Christianity is exclusively true because by pure chance they happened to born to Christian parents? Why the double standard?

125

I'm converting again.

by reneeisorym in

2 years ago i left jws.

i went to a baptist church because it was what my husband was.

i knew i wanted to go to church but which one i really didn't know yet.. two years later, i think i have made up my mind: presbyterian.. anyone have anything they want to share?

serotonin_wraith

I don't think you are aware of how preachy you sound

Is this a negative thing, comparing me to religious preachers?

Do keep in mind that such beliefs, though wrong, are not life-threatening or dangerous.

So you'd be cool with parents teaching their children falsehoods? Okay, well I think their minds should be protected aswell as their bodies, so we'll have to agree to disagree there.

There is broadcast interest and stories about Santa

...and if it carries on into adulthood, we're tempted to get these people help.

Religions also teach ill-supported and illogical morals such as "help a stranger in need", "do good to others even at great personal cost".

They're not illogical - and religion isn't needed to teach them.

Who is the arbiter on what beliefs should be taught and what should be discarded?

Things that are true should be taught, and things that are untrue should not be presented as fact. Someone like Obves or Jcanon can speak about their beliefs concerning the end of the world, and you can laugh and shrug it off. No one's making you believe it. But what if their children are taught it? Being young, they cannot know it's a lie or something the parent has just got wrong. They'll believe it.

I wish religions were just about good morals, but it goes much deeper than that. Things are taught that cannot possibly be known, like who will live for an eternity and who will not, and which is the real god - which assumes there is one to begin with.

Yet you think I'm being completely unfair.

All I'd have to do is change some names around to show you how silly it is.

There's a giant pink jellyfish living in a nearby galaxy. It created this galaxy, and our planet and the life on it. To show appreciation, we must sing songs to the jellyfish every Friday, and speak to the jellyfish each night before bed.

If someone was teaching their children that, you'd probably have a problem with it. The children would be victims, going along with it because their minds are young. But change it to another belief which has just as much evidence behind it (i.e. the god if the Bible) and all of a sudden it's not right to speak about that as I have done. That belief should be respected.

I can't see why.

203

Opinion peice on Athiests

by SickofLies in

jw
friends

there seems to be a lot of hostility on the board toward atheists still and a lot of comments floating around like atheists are to preachy.

well i want to take a quick minute and deal with some of these issues.

to begin with, to make any statement regarding atheists in general would be false for several reasons.

serotonin_wraith

Dear Michelle,

I hope the paint dries quickly so you can get out of that corner. ;)

Love SW.

203

Opinion peice on Athiests

by SickofLies in

jw
friends

there seems to be a lot of hostility on the board toward atheists still and a lot of comments floating around like atheists are to preachy.

well i want to take a quick minute and deal with some of these issues.

to begin with, to make any statement regarding atheists in general would be false for several reasons.

serotonin_wraith

Yep, an inch is relative, as I said.

You wrote this:

greater minds than ours came up with Biblical Numerics...

Then I asked

If you're saying the numbers were from God... proof please.
If you're saying they came from humans... no argument from me

So I'm still not sure where you think the number came from. I can continue once I know.

125

I'm converting again.

by reneeisorym in

2 years ago i left jws.

i went to a baptist church because it was what my husband was.

i knew i wanted to go to church but which one i really didn't know yet.. two years later, i think i have made up my mind: presbyterian.. anyone have anything they want to share?

serotonin_wraith

Renee,

I can only hope that I have children who are interested in asking the hard questions in life.

I hope so too. I hope they're not brainwashed into being a part of your religion because you tell them it's true, and as children, they trust you. If they do join up, I'd want it to be because they looked at all the alternatives in an ubiased environment.

jgnat,

I understand some religions are more dangerous than others. I'm making the point that if a child isn't given free reign to explore other beliefs, without thinking they're going against what's 'true', this can affect what they come to believe. Ever wondered why it's mostly Muslims who end up having children who become Muslim, and it's mostly Christian parents who have children who become Christian? The link is obvious.

And what is wrong with raising a child with your personal set of beliefs?

Well it depends on what beliefs are being told. If you knew a family was teaching their children the Earth was flat and that the sun went around us, would this not bother you? Wouldn't you feel any pity at all for the innocent children who were being taught this, and believing it because they were too young to know any different?

I met some boys from a family who believed in exposing them to all religions. That approach did not help the boys at all. They ended up rootless and cynical. They saw no truth in anything.

Or maybe they're just skeptics about things they don't know, and they're not ignorant enough to claim they do know.

Burn,

Honestly, google it, there is so much material on the subject you will retch at the conclusions: Your secularly-induced enervation is destroying you.

Thank you for the evidence, it's all I asked for (but you bit my head off!) From information I've seen, the fastest growing religious group is the non religious. Nope, the non religious are not actually a religion, but they're included whenever surveys are done talking about religious beliefs. I could provide evidence, but Honestly, google it, there is so much material on the subject you will retch at the conclusions. Needless to say, I'm not worried about atheists dying out.

Since you have lost sight of eternity, and since the natural reaction to that is to "eat drink and be merry for tommorrow we'll die", you've become a weak tribe

Actually, it makes me see that if this life is all we have, we should treat it as special and rare. With an eternity in heaven to come, I may be tempted to think it's you who shouldn't really give a crap about this miniscule time on Earth. Looks pretty insignificant compared to what you think is to come.

What progeny escapes your abortion factories ...

You're assuming I'm for abortion. I actually think many of the reasons people give for having abortions are pitiful. Remember, atheism says nothing about what I DO believe.

Its not the genetics, its the memetics. And ideas affect behavior. The stronger ideas prevail.

Makes sense. This must be why every religion seems to die out, given enough time. If not, it certainly has to evolve to fit with the times.

203

Opinion peice on Athiests

by SickofLies in

jw
friends

there seems to be a lot of hostility on the board toward atheists still and a lot of comments floating around like atheists are to preachy.

well i want to take a quick minute and deal with some of these issues.

to begin with, to make any statement regarding atheists in general would be false for several reasons.

serotonin_wraith

Myelaine,

An inch is a universal measurement of distance agreed upon by humans around the world in order to make life easier. It is very obviously a human concept and is relative.

You claim 666 is a number from a higher power, not a relative human concept.

As I said with the Adam and Eve example - we know what the names represent, but it does not mean those humans existed. It's an old concept and theory. I accept that. I also accept it about 666. It represents the concept of 'evil' because the number is found in a book considered holy which associates it with 'evil'. But it does not actually make the number truly evil.

Another example: the number 42. Does this represent anything? According to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, it represents the meaning of life, the universe and everything. That's what it's associated with. But is it truly the answer to the meaning of life? It would be hard to make that leap based on it being written in a book. But that's exactly what you've done with 666.

50

Does paradise still seem attractive to you?

by Hiddenwindow in

jw
friends

do you think paradise, as depicted by the watchtower, an everlasting life praising jehovah and playing with what we now know as wild animals, not to mention cultivating a piece of land, is really a desirable place?

bear in mind that there is no reference to science and that personal goals are non-existent..

serotonin_wraith

A world full of Jehovah's Witnesses. Kill me. Please.

serotonin_wraith

Posts by serotonin_wraith