done4good

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Posts by done4good

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  43

  The INTJ Personality Type, (and those close to it)

  by done4good in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am compelled to write a bit about this at this late hour here in the us, because it is keeping me up.. the recent four year old thread on the briggs myers personality type test that was dug up, produced an interesting finding.

  many here, (at least tested informally for), the intj personality type.

  intjs also do not understand irrational behavior particularly well at all.. why does this matter?

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  done4good

  Very good comments all.
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  43

  The INTJ Personality Type, (and those close to it)

  by done4good in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am compelled to write a bit about this at this late hour here in the us, because it is keeping me up.. the recent four year old thread on the briggs myers personality type test that was dug up, produced an interesting finding.

  many here, (at least tested informally for), the intj personality type.

  intjs also do not understand irrational behavior particularly well at all.. why does this matter?

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  done4good

  Fraz-

  I completely agree that it is an uncontrolled test, and therefore not scientific. Any evidence is anecdotal at best.

  That said, there is a signifciant correlation, (not causation), between posting here and the NT personality type as represented by Briggs Myers. That, in of itself is worth at least some examiniation. This is how a statistician would view a correlation coefficient somewhere in the .3-.5 range.

  That is my point.

  d4g
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  43

  The INTJ Personality Type, (and those close to it)

  by done4good in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am compelled to write a bit about this at this late hour here in the us, because it is keeping me up.. the recent four year old thread on the briggs myers personality type test that was dug up, produced an interesting finding.

  many here, (at least tested informally for), the intj personality type.

  intjs also do not understand irrational behavior particularly well at all.. why does this matter?

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  done4good

  I am compelled to write a bit about this at this late hour here in the US, because it is keeping me up.

  The recent four year old thread on the Briggs Myers personality type test that was dug up, produced an interesting finding. Many here, (at least tested informally for), the INTJ personality type. This is significant, because even if many who took the test and recevied this result, did so somewhat inaccurately, it still does not negate the fact that many have similar personality traits that do not fit in well with what most humans "do". INTJs make up about 1-2% of the world population, and the fact that so many here tested out this way does matter. It is not a mere statistical anomaly. Anyone with a background in probability theory would understand this.

  INTJs may very well make rational decisions easily, be particularly good at seeing the "big picture", etc., but the reality is, they do not deal with irrational behavior well. That includes their own irrational behavior, that they themselves are sometimes are susceptible to. Contrary to what some light hearted material on the subject might state or imply, INTJs do have feelings, they just internalize them. INTJs also do not understand irrational behavior particularly well at all.

  Why does this matter? Because human relationships are not rational. They are based on emotions and intuitive hueristics. INTJs expect humans to deal rationally with each other at all times. Guess what, we don't. None of us do. For example, when we experience shunning from a loved one, (yes, INTJs do respond to love), it hurts like hell. We do not have a built in mechanism for coping with this other than our analytical skills, which are inadequate to understand this irrational behavior. So guess what, we spend much of our time on forums like this, researching, reading, meditating, and pain killing, (INTJs can be more prone to alcohol and drug abuse), to find an outlet and closure to the pain we are experiencing.

  I would like to once again stress the point, that a statistical anomaly is not what we are seeing in these results. JWs make up about .1% of the total population, and only a subset of that number leave. A much smaller subset of that number, actually care to do any research, and understand their past experience of being a JW, as well as curious enough to learn the big picture theoretical ideas that INTJs generally gravitate toward learning. It is very likely that the high percentage of this type we see in the results is consistent with the audience we are sampling. Hopefully, this provides some clues in better understanding ourselves.

  d4g
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  190

  What's your personality type? Myers-Briggs test

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  take this 72 yes/no question test to find out.. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp.

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  done4good

  Edit to my comment: INTJ is roughly 2% of the US population.

  d4g
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  190

  What's your personality type? Myers-Briggs test

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  take this 72 yes/no question test to find out.. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp.

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  done4good

  This is definately fascinating...INTJs are <1% of the population. I have not calculated the percentage of our sample, but this sample has to be close to 50%. This is not some statistical anomaly. There is a clear correlation bewtween this board and the INTJ personality type.

  Many, many JWs leave, and never research or even question anything as to why. Usually it is just gut instinct, then left alone. The problem with that is a person becomes vulnerable to returning without examining the reasons as to why they left, rationally. This really is not good news when we think about it.

  The upshot, we are clearly in the minority, and our friends and family stuck in are likely not going anywhere.

  d4g
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  190

  What's your personality type? Myers-Briggs test

  by frankiespeakin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  take this 72 yes/no question test to find out.. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp.

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  done4good

  INTJ
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  91

  one reason for the dumbing down of the org

  by Magnum in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a lot of us have said that theres been a dumbing down in jw land.

  its just not like it used to be especially a few decades ago.

  it seems to me that if jw are right and the end of the world is near, the spiritual food should get tastier and more nourishing as time goes on, but it's getting more and more bland and less nourishing.

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  done4good

  Old Goat - Oh, I think there are Witnesses with "brain power." They live in fear of using it. They compartmentalize. It's okay for them to use it when they teach or as a lawyer or engineer. It's not okay to develop a thological interest or to question the Watchtower's conclusions.

  That comment is spot on. That was me, in my later years as a JW before leaving.

  I had a similar conversation with a JW friend recently. I attempted to use the same reasonsing to help her understand cognitive dissonance. She experienced CD over the explanation of CD. And yes, she is an otherwise intelligent woman.

  I believe this dumbing down is what will contribute to the organization's, (eventual), demise. What WT does not understand, is the dynamic that is playing out. It used to be, (at least through the 80's - early '90's), that JWs were encouraged to engage householders in discussion, and were able to do so quite well on many topics, however shortsighted they may have been in reality. There was passion, and a true belief that we were helping others understand things their religions were supposedly not teaching them. Not any more. JWs are no longer interested in the work. No passion, no desire...nothing to desire.

  Secondly, the dumbing down will eventually cause those, like my friend above, to wake up. Intelligent people are generally successful. Successful people do not like being manipulated or controlled. The organization is replacing "richer", albeit false material, with control and manipulation. This is a recipe for long term disaster. It is a positive feedback loop that will not reverse itself. At some point, life happens. With no desire, no passion, and enough intelligence to know better, a big enough emotional tug in the other direction is all it takes to drive someone out. It happend to me, and a good number of us here the same way. The best and the brightest figure it out eventually.

  d4g
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  87

  How is the org really run? What goes on behind the scenes?

  by Magnum in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  how is the org really run?

  what goes on behind the scenes?.

  i just read an older post on this site that was recently bumped (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/6600/1/don-adams-biography) the post mentioned the adams brothers don, karl, & joel and how influential they are/were at headquarters.

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  done4good

  Apognophos-Personally I don't think I've ever seen any hard evidence that JWs have a bigger problem with depression than non-believers, so while it's true that they are not "the perfectly happy people on earth", saying that they are the "happiest" people is a claim which is harder to knock down.

  Now this I do not agree with. Of course, I have no hard emperical evidence to know that there is a greater degree of depression among JWs than the general population, but I do believe there is ample anecdotal evidence.

  I have been fortunate enough in my life to have an education, and good career, that has allowed me to have a social network large enough to see a large enough sample size of the general population. I also spent most of my life, (including most of my adult life), as a JW. I have been on both sides of that depression scale myself. There really is no comparison. Not that depression does not exist among non-JWs, but it is not as severe, and does not affect the same percentage of that sample.

  What can you really expect from a group whose overall lives are based on false expectations, (and all of the bad life decisions that come with that mindset)?

  d4g
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  87

  How is the org really run? What goes on behind the scenes?

  by Magnum in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  how is the org really run?

  what goes on behind the scenes?.

  i just read an older post on this site that was recently bumped (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/6600/1/don-adams-biography) the post mentioned the adams brothers don, karl, & joel and how influential they are/were at headquarters.

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  done4good

  Apognophos-On the general subject of control techniques used by the WT, I think that a lot of them are pretty common sense, like the shunning practice. Heck, you can see even elementary school kids decide to punish a classmate they don't like by ignoring him. If we've ever met someone who was a people manipulator, did we wonder from where he got a degree in Manipulation? No, we just assumed he came by it naturally. Likewise, the cult control techniques encompassed by terms like "B.I.T.E." are largely obvious and do not take a rocket scientist to arrive at, just a controlling personality. The usefulness of those terms is in helping people recognize if they are being controlled, but I don't believe that the presence of these techniques implies that the one practicing them studied them in a book beforehand, or even knows he is using them.

  Exactly. That is why I do not like the term "mind control". While it is not incorrect to state that mind controlling techniques are in use, (by either the org. or JWs themselves), it is incorrect to assume these techniques are being used deliberately with hurtful intent. Witnesses have been taught to be manipulative and passive aggressive by example, in most cases from birth. The current leadsership in the org. is no different. They were once R&F too, and spent decades in most cases being manipulated themselves. They know nothing else. Once again, they have not figured out some brilliant scheme of deception for personal gain, rather, they are just replicating what comes natural for them.

  d4g
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  87

  How is the org really run? What goes on behind the scenes?

  by Magnum in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  how is the org really run?

  what goes on behind the scenes?.

  i just read an older post on this site that was recently bumped (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/6600/1/don-adams-biography) the post mentioned the adams brothers don, karl, & joel and how influential they are/were at headquarters.

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  done4good

  Good thread. For the 8 years I have been on this site, (with varying degrees of participation), I have seen probably 1000 threads asking things such as "how is the org run", "do the GB really believe", "is there someone else pulling the strings", etc. Answers are usually never found, (though many plausible explanations offered), only to be asked a different way on yet a different thread. This usually just leads to all types of theories, including those of the conspiracy type. Ususally when a things go as far as unprovable conspiracy theories, (of which stating some outside force controlling the GB is one of), we are way off the mark.

  The real underlying question that needs to be asked is why they do what they do what they do? "Why" often gets to the root cause of what is going on generally in a more expiditous manner than asking "what" or even "how". This can be answered using a logical approach, but not neccessarily one that follows the normal hueristic of "common" sense.

  To answer this, one needs to consider some counterintuitive concepts. In this case, the main concept is social evolution. Social evolution, (just as biological or any other evolution), has its roots in probabilties. In biological evolution, a gene mutates by stochastic, (random), events. Eventually with enough tries, a working mutation that produces a useful evolutionary genetic change takes place. Since this change is one that produced somthing useful for survival, it has advantages over mutations that do not produce a useful genetic change. Now take note, we really never see these "bad" genetic outcomes in the fossil record, do we? "Why" is what we should be asking ourselves, but we typically do not bother, because the answer, (to anyone familiar with biological evolution), is obvious. The fact is, since the mutatations produced "bad" genes not fit for survival, the organisms that were produced died off long before they could reproduce themselves.

  The same principle applies to social memes just as it does biological genes. In this case, the social meme is the WT. The organization has survived about 140 years through years of social evolutionary change. In 1971, when the autocratic nature of the Presidency was threatening the organization's survival, (mostly due to the 1975 craziness), the board of directors began to flex their muscles and form a "theocratic", version of themselves, that today we know as the Governing Body. This was the first of such memetic mutations that took place with the board. Guess what, it worked. We know it did, because within 5 years, (1976), it gained enough power to take all power away from the Presidency. On the other hand, if it had failed, we probably would not even know about what took place in October of 1971.

  In the years since, the organization has continued to evolve. It is much larger than it was in 1976, and we live in a much more complex and legalistic society. The organization has continued to exist due to random changes over the years, some of which have proven successful. It is not that some very intelligent people are running it, (and know it is all BS). Rather, the ones running it are mostly as delusional as most of the R&F, (just much worse because they have no other life outside of the organization), they just simply have made enough satisfactory decisons over the years since to keep it alive.

  As a corollary to this, we do see the organization dying a slow death. In other words, the larger evolutionary changes neccessary for survival long term would really involve changes the organization is incapable of making.

  There is nothing mystical or conspiratorial taking place. Just random decisions and happenings that have been "good enough" to keep it alive. Social evolution will run its course to completion in the end.

  d4g