The platitudes from the elder who mentioned "spiritual protection" is the responsibility of the elders and not "physical protection", or some such BS, is just plain disgusting. I don't think I could have watched much more than that.
Good piece, however. This issue needs a broader audience, and I think PBS did a good job.
d4g
the borg seem to prepare for changes by missing explanations out for a while then presenting a "new understanding" which doesn't contradict the most recent discussion.check out the most recent references to gog - no identification as satan.. in today's wt study, paragraph 15 concerning benefitting from the prodigal son stated "if we meet a person who has strayed from the congregation, will we offer loving and practical help to assist him to return?
" there is no footnote or other qualifier saying not to go to disfellowshipped ones (who are definitely the ones being talked about) which is still the official policy.
i know this isn't an ending to shunning, but it may signal the start of the preparation for a change.
DF/DA/Former believer policy will not change. It is part of the superstructure that is needed for the organization to survive.
The same goes for FS, (i.e. busy work), the anti-higher education position, (i.e. do not allow critical thinking), and end times. Remove any of these and the others quickly fall under their own weight. The organization would no longer be JW.
d4g
alert..............alert.....breaking news .......... john cedars of jwsurvey has pranked called governing body member anthony morris iii at bethel .
over 2 minutes of pranking .
as i type he is editing the recording into a video .
Sorry, but this tactic is immature and foolish. It does little more than to feed a JW's persecution complex, and in the end just adds weight to their argument that apostates are nothing more than rabid haters. Absolutely counterproductive.
This is what happens when an egomaniac gets lost in his own arrogance.
d4g
so i just watched the singing cart video.
i literally cannot describe how i felt watching that.. growing up as a jw was serious business.
we had to take the preaching work seriously, watch our conduct, give a good witness by our actions, and be on our best behaviour to ensure we made it through the great tribulation.. when i was a child, i had dreams of being a cartoonist.
This is all lipstick on a pig...
Nothing of any substance has changed, if anything, despite all of this happy-happy, joy-joy stuff, the organization is even more totalitarian and controlling than ever before. Once the euphoria and novelty wear off, not only will the youth be leaving, but a good many older ones as well, since nothing of any substance will be left, (not that there ever was much, but at least at one time the illusion of such existed...)
d4g
saw this article on slate.. it got me thinking - the wts are certainly providing lots of ammunition for spoofing.
talks about tight pants, singing trolleys, rubber faced buffoonery from lett...... what if we start encouraging jws to laugh at their leadership, instead of kowtowing in reverential awe?.
from the article:.
you know how our minds often get all "fuzzy" and confused when we are put on the spot and asked to come up with points?
we often tend to lose focus and go off on tangents?.
im trying to compile a basic list of bullet points for the most obvious and clear problems / doctrines / history of witnesses that can blow the org out of the water.. it is more for the purpose of getting my own thoughts clear rather than using it to talk to witnesses (as that doesn't really work).
Sorry Magnum, but experience has taught me to respectfully disagree with you on this. All of these points are academic in nature, if not used to present a line of argumentation to a JW. I fully understand where the OP was going with it, but without purpose of discussion, none of them have any meaning outside of JW land. There are better and more convincing lines of argumentation we can use for our own edification if we need to "prove" to ourselves that JW is somehow not the "truth".
You can start by reading any science or history book...
d4g
you know how our minds often get all "fuzzy" and confused when we are put on the spot and asked to come up with points?
we often tend to lose focus and go off on tangents?.
im trying to compile a basic list of bullet points for the most obvious and clear problems / doctrines / history of witnesses that can blow the org out of the water.. it is more for the purpose of getting my own thoughts clear rather than using it to talk to witnesses (as that doesn't really work).
In a D/A letter I wrote several years ago, I used bullet points such as you mentioned in the post script.
I would not use that approach today, knowing what I know now. None of those things made me leave. They served as supporting evidence to myself for leaving. Real world human factors led to my decision to leave, and this is why 99% of JWs that leave, do.
A two class system, (us vs. them); misapplied or bad logic on every level; dishonesty; lack of love; a lack of integrity; etc., are the things that wake someone up eventually, when a certain personal threshold of tolerance for such things is exceeded. This cannot be forced, although these things can be highlighted in certain situations.
The best thing to do is discuss these types of concerns on forums like this one, and let folks come here on their own volition. This is the real difference maker in the information age in which we live today.
d4g
as we all know, the internet is a real game-changer in allowing us to know the truth about the watch tower and its history.
i always had doubts and it was the internet that presented me with the ever-growing number of individuals who were going through a similar struggle.. i give the internet a 9 in my awakening.
what about you?.
Awakening is a process. It usually begins long before we are consciously aware of it, and ends quite some time after. I probably began to wake up unwittingly about 10 or 11 years before I left, however, as most experiencing cognitive dissonance, would have never had the self-honesty to admit it.
I left before I did any research on the internet. My own experiences by then made staying in mentally impossible. I was comfortable with that decision at the time, but soon discovered I needed answers, as the questions began to surface and the need to make sense of it all became the next important step. I had no idea just how misguided I was. The internet was very significant, (a big shout out to the late Timothy Campbell !), in allowing me to both develop the proper premises to base questions on, and getting those questions answered.
December 25, 2005 was my last meeting. I have been not been to a KH since. 9 years later, there are still things from time to time that are necessary to sort out that sites such as this are helpful with, although more in a cathartic way than actually assisting in "awakening", (such as writing this). I would like to think I am beyond that by now.
Overall, the significance of the internet is about an 8. I would have left anyway, (and did), however the internet allowed myself to be exposed to a far richer life experience since leaving than I would have had otherwise. It convinced me to pursue things I always wanted, (like do a lot of reading about all kinds of subjects, go back to school for my Master's, etc.).
d4g
this is what somebody has been telling me, trying to convince me aside from anything one can say or cause reason for doubt, as the evidence that they are the true religion and true people of god.
they are convinced because while 'all other' christian and other religions support war, troops, etc, jw's don't and they are the only one's who carry god's name and preach.
nothing else matters.
The entire premise that platitude is based on is false. Approaching the platitude directly will not convince a JW. In order to make an effective argument, a JW needs to look beyond their false premise. This is not always easy, but there are ways to do this. There are even university courses that teach this type of abstract thinking, but it is a discipline, and requires a certain amount of mental practice.
Apart from the obvious fact that other faiths such as Quakers, have similar dogma, the key here is help a JW see their premise is wrong. The following lines of argumentation need to be applied:
a. Many individuals have a strong belief in some sort of pacifism. A religion is not necessary for this position. Are individual JWs more inclined toward this than the average person? Are they not simply following someone else's, (their group's), conscience on this matter? Which person represents somone standing on higher moral ground, a follower or someone making the choice out of their own conscientious decision?
b. As Cofty mentioned, is pacifism even a virtue? Even as a JW, I knew that protecting my family and loved ones knew no limits. If someone were to put them in harm's way, it is game over for them. Can this not be extropolated to my neighbors? Community? Country? It is really about protecting what is ours, or even protecting someone in danger. It is a necessary evil at best. No sane person wants war.
c. Look at the conflict within the congragations. Why does that conflict even exist? Does it originate with the individual, or might the environment play a bigger role than one thinks?
This line of reasoning will not convince someone overcome with cognitive dissonance, (any believing JW), but it will possibly plant a seed of thought that may germinate later in life.
d4g
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I stayed away from this thread for a couple of days, quite frankly, it pissed me off...
Now that I have calmed down a bit, let me explain to you why your premise is plain wrong.
Yes, the JW do some "evil" things. It is unatural, antisocial, and ultimately extremely hurtful to people to shun them, for example. The same can be said for the blood doctrine or any number of harmful things JW do to themselves, and others.
Performing those acts no more makes them evil in of themselves as would have being a German citizen who was manipulated into joining the Nazi party in the 1930s would have been intrinsically evil. The entire German nation then was not "evil". This has been said already, but it bears repeating. Having a black and white view such as the OP is very dangerous, and ends up with bigotry and hatred all of its own. These are the very types of lessons we are supposed to learn from history, or we are doomed to repeat them.
You were a JW once. I was a JW once. At what point did you become "not evil"???
d4g
