BU2B
Sorry to hear this. Yes, they are manipulative and do not even know it. Remember, they themselves have been manipulated for their entire lives if they were born in.
d4g
done4good
JoinedPosts by done4good
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35
Behold the face of indoctrination! My moms guilt tripping letter to me.
by BU2B ini wish i knew what it was like to have an unconditionally loving mother.
i know she loves me and cares about me, but only within her narrow wt spectrum.
if i do not meet her narrow expectations, i am a failure to her.
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done4good
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Skills Gap
by M*A*S*H inthe jws have now been discouraging higher education and critical thinking for a long time.
we have all seen the 'dumbing down' of the wt literature.
on a personal level i have seen many of the perceivably intelligent younger members of congregations leave.
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done4good
Simon-
Just so you are aware, the quote function is very clunky to edit, (at least in Firefox).
d4g
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20
Skills Gap
by M*A*S*H inthe jws have now been discouraging higher education and critical thinking for a long time.
we have all seen the 'dumbing down' of the wt literature.
on a personal level i have seen many of the perceivably intelligent younger members of congregations leave.
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done4good
DJS-
They appear to be paying for that. Excellent. But as long as they can outsource what they need or find enough dubs with the intelligence to do their bidding they will trade stupidity and a lack of education for the alternative.
They will continue to bleed the best and brightest. And that is most excellent.
They are indeed paying for it, and the long term prognosis for the WTBTS is not positive from their perspective.
The one issue I still see however, is that the better educated older Gen Xs or younger Boomers amongst the JWs typically still have decent enough lives that they are too comfortable to make a change, and see things for what they really are. They are often apathetic concerning many organizational related ideas, however riddled with cognitive dissonance, so they cannot see the forest for the trees. It usually takes something to make them uncomfortable enough to get them to wake up beyond that apathetic state. For this reason unfortunately, the organization has some life left.
d4g
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47
I'm Ready... Thank you
by Garrett inhey guys,.
so, something amazing happened recently.
i recently met with an old and very good friend of mine.
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done4good
Rebel8-
I am not sure if you mean this the way I am taking it, but that sounds like a false dichotomy: Either you DA or you are pretending to be a jw.
Because it is totally possible to "state a view publicly" without DAing, those who choose to DA must have a different purpose. Whatever that is, it's their own choice to make and affects me in no way whatsoever.Again, I agree completely. No false dichotomy here. My point is that some folks here are very quick to assume that this is playing by the org's rules, and these are often the same very ones who pretend to be JWs, (not you), by what they like to refer as "fading". Fading has an end game, (or it should). That end game should be to live a life free of control by the WTS. If someone chooses to either DA or not, it does not matter, but what does matter is living your own life. A person is not actually fading if they go along with the JW lifestyle while in front of JWs, (family or not), with no endgame to that charade. "Fading" is a bridge, not a destination.
Arguing whether DA is JW ritual or not really is yet a different discussion. I think a good argument could be made for either, (and maybe it simply does depend on the person), but I know in my case, it had nothing to do with wanting to "play by the rules" one last time for old times' sake. It had everything to do with communicating a message to folks I thought deserving enough to know where I stood.
d4g
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74
Who leaves first, the husband or wife?
by snugglebunny inwhen it comes to a simple matter of no longer believing the teachings of jw's, it appears to me that it's more common for the husband to make the first move to leave the religion.
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done4good
Remember, there was also an old thread about personality types, where something like 30% of those who responded to the poll were INTJ MBTIs. That is serious over representation of a personality type that about 1-2% of the population have. That significant of a statistical correlation would suggest there might be something to the "types" of men and women we have contributing to ex-JW forums, and hence skew other polls, such as this one.
Again, in my experience many men leave, but don't really mentally escape. When adult women leave they tend to know it is not the "The Truth", even if they do little research about the subject.
d4g
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74
Who leaves first, the husband or wife?
by snugglebunny inwhen it comes to a simple matter of no longer believing the teachings of jw's, it appears to me that it's more common for the husband to make the first move to leave the religion.
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done4good
Women generally do "get it" before men do, (even if they don't know how to act on it right away). When they do leave, they are generally more inclined to be mentally awake, even without officially knowing TTATT, in my experience. Many men leave just because they are "burnt out", but still believe it all, and are at risk of going back at any time. We will likely see an over representation of men leaving first here simply because I think the personality types involved are of those that need a logical explanation for leaving, (think INTJ as mentioned above).
I think that does have to do with women having better emotional sensibilities in general, and knowing how to act on those sensibilities rationally, when the time comes. It is not about emotional vs. rational, rather about the ability to incorporate emotion into rational decision making.
My ex actually knew something was wrong before I did. I did not want to hear it. I left the organization after we split up, but then learned several years later that she woke up on her own sometime after I left.
d4g
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47
I'm Ready... Thank you
by Garrett inhey guys,.
so, something amazing happened recently.
i recently met with an old and very good friend of mine.
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done4good
rebel8- I will clarify this.
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rebel8 13 hours ago
I would be interested in getting clarification on what is meant by this.
I never bought into the "it is playing by their rules argument". Most who say this are really pretty much faking it
Faking what?
it is equally as judgmental to claim "playing by their rules"
Why do you view this as judgmental? DA is their religious ritual; voluntarily participating in it is playing by their rules. This is just a statement of fact, not judgment.
when they don't know your personal reasons for DA). I did gain great peace of mind from it
I can't imagine many personal reasons. Is my list missing anything?
Expressing your feelings/beliefs to your former cultmates by use of a cult ritual (their rules).
Seeking a sense of closure by forcing the cult grant it to you (their rules).
Any variation on #2--getting some sort of catharsis by participating in the cult ritual of DA (their rules).
Utilizing a cult ritual (their rules) to cut off contact from your former cultmates.
Seeking punishment (their rules).
Anyone who wants to play by their rules is free to do so. That's the beauty of the freedom you now have.
Statement of fact says who? I would really like to know who the authority is on this???
I agree that is not necessary to DA. In fact, I was quite opposed to the idea, (even to the point of using the same rationale, (playing by their rules), until I simply realized that that my principal reason for not doing so were my own fears of others knowing my true thoughts on the WTS. Once I realized that, I realized there was a lack of honesty on my part, and I was doing others a disservice by the lack of clarity and evasiveness.
In the end, it is their choice to shun me based on my decision to make it clear that I was no longer a JW, not mine. DA is simply making a statement I am no longer JW. "Playing by their rules" is choosing to treat a person who did so according to WTS edict.
Many, many will automatically choose to assume a person who DA did so out of some innate need to conform to WTS "rules". For the life of me, I cannot imagine why that is knowing what I know now. I was out for 18 months by the time I DA. Not a single meeting, little to no association with JW, and not really concerned that some elders or others were going to try to convert me back. What I believed was that I owed the few folks I considered friends in the org. to know the truth. That is why I also put my letter on this forum and signed my real name to it.
Having said that, let me also clarify my statement on "faking it", (in the form of a question). Who do you think appears to be more under WTS control, someone honest enough to state their view publicly, or someone who pretends to still be JW who does not believe any of it? Who really is playing by WTS rules more? Think about it. It is often these same ones who are the most vocal about how much someone is playing by WTS rules is, if they DA.
d4g
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Devouring the Forbidden Fruit - Higher Education
by cappytan inwell, i told my wife over the weekend i was going to go back school to finish my degree.
she is 100% supportive of it!
apparently she doesn't think higher education is so evil either.. since my former major was computer programming and that was in the late 1990's, i was told i'd have to retake a bunch of classes since times have changed.
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done4good
user100-
cappy..i'd make sure you can get a job after the degree.. I wonder what you will be able to do with a BS in biology.. around here theres a ton of pharmaceuticals so it would be good.. but i wonder what its like where you are..
computer science will get you a job anywhere.Always pursue your passion first. Employment will follow. I say this as a hiring manager. Personally, I look for two things, 1. Obviously demonstrating one has the basic skills required or aptitude to learn them, and 2. Critical thinking skills. A degree in almost any area will teach you #2. I work in technology and recently hired a double BS in psychology and sociology because she met the two requirements above. She is my best employee.
d4g
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Devouring the Forbidden Fruit - Higher Education
by cappytan inwell, i told my wife over the weekend i was going to go back school to finish my degree.
she is 100% supportive of it!
apparently she doesn't think higher education is so evil either.. since my former major was computer programming and that was in the late 1990's, i was told i'd have to retake a bunch of classes since times have changed.
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done4good
Great to hear! -
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I'm Ready... Thank you
by Garrett inhey guys,.
so, something amazing happened recently.
i recently met with an old and very good friend of mine.
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done4good
I never bought into the "it is playing by their rules argument". Most who say this are really pretty much faking it, (not that I don't understand the reasons for doing so, but it is equally as judgmental to claim "playing by their rules", when they don't know your personal reasons for DA). I did gain great peace of mind from it, and don't regret it for the most part, however...
That said, it can be costly, and you may find years later there may just be that one person whom it offends that you could have made a better case with, have you not DA'd. It happened to me, and changed me immensely.
d4g
