Posts by izobcenec

I believe there is a typographical error in this statement. "the laws of the Church" probably actually says "the laws of the land" or "the laws of the government" in the book. It makes no sense as "Church".

ok...here is a scan of that quote...in slovenian language...

that was translated into:
If the elders are informed about an illegal activity or any other delict or wrongdoing committed by a member of the community, they will not, even if it is instructed by the laws of the Church, announce it to the authorities. more direct translation of that quote would be:

If the elders are informed about an illegal activity or any other delict or wrongdoing committed by a member of the community, they will not, even if the church laws (and that is the case in many countries) require, that the elders announce it to the authorites, do that....but the meaning remains the same

SO, the journalist tried to check, what is in the 1991 book (in slovenian)...JW spokesman at first (still a little shocked) said, he will show her the manual after the filming (and even said that on TV), but later he changed his mind...so that was a direct lie...the other lie was, when he said, that there were never any rules like that...luckily, the journalist had the manual with her...and that was a real breakthru...he couldn't deny it anymore...and there was yet another lie..."I know none of such cases" (that anybody died for rejecting blood)...I mean WHAT? he is the EDITOR of WT and Awake magazine in our country...he certainly DID KNOW of cases like that (awake 1994)...so we were very lucky with this TV program...WT spokesman was really shocked (because the journalist had the "pay attention" manual with her) and consecutive confused...yes he tried with "theocratic warfare", but the viewers didn't fell for that...it was really quite obvious, that WT spokesman is lying and that just confirmed our statements.

i also checked the 1991 "pay attention"
on page 137 and 138 it says:

If the elders learn of illegal activity or of some serious
crime on the part of a member of the congregation, they
may not be obliged by law to report the offender or the
offense to secular authorities. UNIT 5 (c) - l37

Though it is not the responsibility of the Christian
congregation to enforce Caesar's laws, yet the very nature
of some crimes demands that they be reported to secular
authorities. [that is new in 1991 book]

It may be necessary to encourage the wrongdoer to turn
himself in to secular authorities. Before any steps are
taken in this regard, contact the branch office. of course,
review the latest Society directives on such matters before
proceeding.

Although not enforcers of Caesar's laws, in cases that also
involve the breaking of God's law, elders must give
consideration to what has taken place.

Depending on the wrongdoing committed, a judicial
committee hearing may be needed.

As suggested by the apostle Paul's comments regarding
Onesimus, a person who was guilty of illegal activities
before coming to a knowledge of the truth is not required
to settle these things with the authorities prior to baptism.
(Philem. 10-18; w78 9/15 pp. 30-1)

A former thief would not be required to make restitution
to all from whom he stole before baptism, although in
some cases his conscience may move him to do so. (Luke
19:8)

The blood of Jesus Christ covers the sins of such new
ones. They may get baptized. However, it is best to be
judicious as to extending additional privileges. (Isa. 1:18;
1 Tim. 2:5, 6; l John 1:7)

If a person approaching baptism is an illegal alien, he
should be urged to do what he can to rectify his status
with regard to the law of the land. (w77 3/15 pp. 191-2)

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JW's in Slovenia: TV program transcript!

by izobcenec in

jw
friends

the reporter: will you show me the new manual?

the reporter: would you have accepted the transfusion?

janko novak, jw spokesman: i know none of such cases (that anybody died for rejecting blood) .

izobcenec

yes, its an exact quote...from the 1982 "pay attention..."

21

JW's in Slovenia: TV program transcript!

by izobcenec in

jw
friends

the reporter: will you show me the new manual?

the reporter: would you have accepted the transfusion?

janko novak, jw spokesman: i know none of such cases (that anybody died for rejecting blood) .

izobcenec

i edited the post...re: THE SECRET ELDERS MANUAL...

21

JW's in Slovenia: TV program transcript!

by izobcenec in

jw
friends

the reporter: will you show me the new manual?

the reporter: would you have accepted the transfusion?

janko novak, jw spokesman: i know none of such cases (that anybody died for rejecting blood) .

izobcenec

amm...the secret elder manual...its "pay attention to yourselves and all the flock"
we only have 1982 version for now (in slovenian language that is)...

21

JW's in Slovenia: TV program transcript!

by izobcenec in

jw
friends

the reporter: will you show me the new manual?

the reporter: would you have accepted the transfusion?

janko novak, jw spokesman: i know none of such cases (that anybody died for rejecting blood) .

izobcenec

This TV program was aired recently (3.9.2002) in Slovenia, Europe, on the biggest slovenian TV station, POP tv (www.pop-tv.si)

About 250.000 people saw it. We translated the whole TV program. Video will be available soon. Enjoy!

JEHOVAHS WITNESSES IN SLOVENIA: TV PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT

Otos parents joined the Jehovahs Witnesses when he was four years old. By reason of their religious rules he wasnt allowed to celebrate his birthdays, new year or any other, as they name them, pagan holidays. He was dissuaded from associating with worldly children, watching TV or films, which had no reference to the faith.

OTO: As long as you are a Jehovahs Witness being with other people means nothing but talking about Gods Kingdom, about the wonderful news. Any other conversation is said to be throwing pearls to the swines.

The only entertainment he could enjoy beside going to school was the regular Bible study, meetings (five hours a week) and the door-to-door service.

OTO: I was always scared that some of my school-friends or teachers might answer the door. At school I was named a jehovist. I was stigmatized all the years of my school time..

Marko was their member for some years, together with his wife and his children. He disassociated himself because he could not agree with the pressure which the elders put upon the education of his children. As he created a new life after leaving the organization, he asked us not to reveal his identity.

MARKO: They dont baptize children and they pride themselves with that, but they are indoctrinated since their earliest age, before they are able to read and write. They have cassettes to watch and their parents must study with them, they should bring them to all meetings, even if they are only two or three years old.They must sit silently for two hours, if they are not quiet, they punish them physically. The physical punishment is one of the commands to the Jehovahs Witnesses.

GRAPHICS FROM A JWS PUBLICATION: BUILD UP A HAPPY FAMILY LIFE, p. 133:

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die

Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Prov. 23:13,14)

That the Jehovahs Witnesses treat the children in an extremly unusual way became quite obvious in May this year, when it was discovered, that in the USA, where the Witnesses have their headquarters, there is a list of more than 23.000 pedophiles in their ranks. Most of them were never announced to the police.

MARKO: There is a secret manual for elders where its clearly stated that such crimes should not be reported to the police.

GRAPHICS: THE SECRET ELDERS MANUAL (PAY ATTENTION TO YOURSELVES AND ALL THE FLOCK, 1982):

If the elders are informed about an illegal activity or any other delict or wrongdoing committed by a member of the community, they will not, even if it is instructed by the laws of the Church, announce it to the authorities.

OTO: The Society is a real paedophile paradise because their judicial committee needs two eyewitnesses, but in these cases usually there are no witnesses.

GRAPHICS: THE SECRET ELDERS MANUAL (PAY ATTENTION TO YOURSELVES AND ALL THE FLOCK, 1982):

What proving material is applicable?

There must be at least two or three eyewitnesses, not only the persons who repeat what they heard. If there is just one eyewitness nothing can be done.

Those victims who, although they were not allowed to, informed the police about the crimes, were later disfellowshipped. As we wished to get some further information about what is going on in this religious group we asked their spokesman, Mr Janko Novak for an interview. At first he was willing to permit the filming but when I let him know that their former members would also take part in this TV program, his answer was this:

JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: I dont think we can make it. You can tell that we refused any cooperation.

Later he accepted the interview but he didn't allow us any other filming or conversation with other believers, even with no camera. When I asked him about their secret manual for elders he first denied existence of such rules:

JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: A far as I know it was never, never and nowhere written that we should not report such things to the police.

THE REPORTER: Is this book yours? (she shows him the manual)

JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: Yes, it is. But these rules have been out of practice for many years. (he laughs nervously)

THE REPORTER: But they were in practice then? JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: That was 20 years ago, I was too young then to know

THE REPORTER: But you probably have never rules, can you show those, if it is not written anymore

JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: I cannot show it you if it isnt written

THE REPORTER: May I check it out?

JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: Yes, you can.

THE REPORTER: Will you show me the new manual?

JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: Yes, I will, after the filming.

But it all came to nothing. When the camera turned off, even after having been promised I couldnt see the new manual. At the police station they didnt know to answer my question if they had ever come upon a case of paedophilia. They say that the accused persons are never asked about their religion.

Besides I was interested in some other commands. By reason of scriptural restrictions they reject the blood transfusions. What follows if an individual accepts blood if he is strictly forbidden to do it?

JANKO NOVAK: You know what would happen? If an individual accepted the transfusion if he were forced to do it, he could fall in such a bad state that he should be helped. We had cases like that and the members told us, they felt like being raped.

THE REPORTER: Would you have accepted the transfusion?

OTO: Yes, I probably would. If I wouldnt Id probably be disfellowshipped.

In the central hospital I was told that so far they havent had any problems with patients rejecting blood.The main reason is a low number of Witnesses (1850), so they havent had a case where they should deal with serious complications. Nevertheless there have been many death cases abroad, with many children among them.

OTO: If a person refuses the transfusion and dies, then they write articles on him in their publications They make him a hero, they praise him almost like god.

JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: I know none of such cases (that anybody died for rejecting blood)

GRAPHICS: A JWS PUBLICATION: GOOD NEWS WHICH WILL MAKE YOU HAPPY, p. 178:

It has already happened in rare cases however that the conscious objection prevented some people from accepting blood and they died therefore. As they respected Gods law faithfully they will be resurrected in Gods paradise.

What makes a person to become a Jehovahs Witness and what is in fact going on within this group? I asked these questions some other former members, for example a woman who, as she says, wishes to forget her bitter life experience as soon as possible.

THE WOMAN: I was going through a terrible life situation and that time I was glad to hear that something better was promised to us. The world with no pain and no suffering. At that time those words made me deeply relieved.

Their system of collecting new members seems to be built up to detail. They write down quite everything about the people who let them enter their homes.

THE WOMAN: They write down in fact anything they notice about the person they are talking to: how he reacted, what questions he asked, his interests, his education and what should be done that the preaching to him should be as much successful as possible.

GRAPHICS: NOTES ABOUT INTERESTED PERSONS

Soon she found out that things are not so wonderful as they had been promising to her. Any doubt was automatically suppressed.

THE WOMAN: Spying on everybody is obligatory. Every member must report any wrongdoing which is comitted by some other believer. If he refuses to obey he risks disfelowshippment himself.

MARKO: These things go so far that a husband is to denounce his wife and vice versa.

Oto was betrayed by his then friends. He was disfellowshipped for being intimate with a girl who did not belong to their religion. The other two disassociated themselves.

They all agree that the deepest pain was the absolute isolation which followed their leaving the group. The believers are commanded to avoid any contact with a former member.

OTO: As a matter of fact theres no worst punishment from the threat that you would be disfellowshipped because you live in your own world and you know no other world except the world of Jehovahs Witnesses.

OTO: Everybody shuns you, even the contacts with your own parents are limited, especially from the spiritual side, the others are avoiding you on the street, looking away.

THE WOMAN: It happens very often that, if they don't live in the same household, the children shun their own parents, brothers, sisters grandparents are not allowed to see their grandchildren anymore. Such cases are very frequent.

Mr. Novak denied everything that I had been told by the former members.

JANKO NOVAK, JW SPOKESMAN: Its just calumny brought out by some individuals who left the ranks of Jehovahs Witnesses, I dont know for what reasons which may be best clear to themselves.

The former members explained their reasons for leaving the group on the web sites. (www.izobceni.streznik.org, www.jehovovexprice.tk) They say that it is the only way to warn the present and the future members against the abuse they experienced themselves.

OTO: Now I can see that I was manipulated and that everything was just a delusion.

His only wish after his 20 years life among the Witnesses is trying to compensate the lost years of the childhood. At the age of 25 he celebrated his first birthday.

END

TV PROGRAM LEADER: Former and even current members are planing a protest march at the end of september. They wan't to warn about happenings in this society.

________________

Translated by Ema

Production: Izobceni streznik team (www.izobceni.streznik.org)

Article about this TV program (in slovenian): http://24ur.com/naslovnica/preverjeno/20020903_2013700.php

Commentary (in slovenian but with some interesting screenshoots of JW spokesman): http://users.volja.net/izobcenec/clanki/28.htm

Izobceni streznik: www.izobceni.streznik.org ("the disfellowshiped server")

Oto's web page: www.jehovovexprice.tk ("jehovahsXwitnesses")

Edited by - izobcenec on 22 September 2002 21:4:48

Edited by - izobcenec on 22 September 2002 21:57:35

Edited by - izobcenec on 23 September 2002 9:12:43

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