Posts by Hoping4Change

217

DMCA Complaint from The WatchTower for links to KS-10 'Shepherding' book

by Simon in

yes, that's right, they really do not like people being able to read that book so they wanted links to it removed (it appears they have also been going after the hosts of the content itself as well).. unfortunately, i had to removed the links (which were dead anyway when i checked) and i'd ask that people don't re-post them (sorry).

i'm sure there are lots of alternative ways for those with the information to get it to those who need it.. here are the discussions on the book:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200524/1/ks10-chapter-one-discussion.

Hoping4Change

I'm curious, what happened when the first elder's manual was leaked (or when the 'Richie Rich' version w/notes was leaked)? Were DMCA notices sent to this (and other sites)? Did the WTBTS ever shutdown any sites over the posting of the original manual and were any individuals tracked down just for downloading or were they content with the results of any take down notices? I'm curious how their reaction this time compares to when those were released.

IMHO, whatever the case, downloading the entire book now (or any part of it for that matter) wouldn't seem to be worth it knowing how strongly they are reacting to its' posting and if one has only happened to have downloaded a couple of the chapters, it wouldn't be worth downloading anymore of the book as it certainly wouldn't seem to be worth their time or money to track down/pursue someone/everyone who only downloaded a couple of chapters; although in both cases I'm not sure what there would be to gain in going after the downloading of this book (or any of its' parts) especially given that it could possibly generate unwanted publicity around the matter; hopefully they will be content with just the results of the take down notices which is sending the clear signal that they do not want anyone to have/see the manual except those they intend. On the other hand, from most other copyright cases I've read about, I think it has 'typically' been the 'distribution' of said works that copyright owners tend to be most concerned with and is the grounds upon which cases are pursued. I think that in the cases involving RIAA and other music downloading, it was the use of P2P software that immediately turned one downloading music into an immediate or potential 'distributor' because of the way most of the those P2P programs work. However, and again, with regards to this new book, I wonder how much publicity they would want to generate by going after any particular individuals; - sites, perhaps just to get the material off, but individual people, I wonder.

Hopefully this whole thing will pass without ill consequences coming to anyone or this site.

66

KS10 Chapter Two Discussion

by yknot in

continuing onward into chapter two (as directed by the boe ltr dated aug 23, 2010) of "shepherding the flock of god" a publication by the non profit organizatin known as the wts of penn & ny as part of their for donation only bible educational work.. for those of interested in chapter one discussion please see: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200524/1/ks10-chapter-one-discussion.

chapter two discusses the various titles within the boe.. subtitles are:.

2) elder's meetings.

Hoping4Change

I can't help but think this is some serious copyright violation doing some high level pissing off that WTBTS will pursue.

Do you suppose they'll really pursue people who downloaded a couple chapters of their book? What was their reaction when the first manual was released?

6

PBS: God in America

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

on monday, pbs began airing a new mini-series entitled, "god in america".

it sounds interesting.

pbs: god in america.

Hoping4Change

I havent watched any of the episodes yet but I did go through the timeline that is on the website (http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/timeline/) - JW's get a mention in 1940 for the Supreme Court ruling protecting the right of solicitation.

After having gone through the timeline I am left wondering why there is not more mention of JWs. Being a home grown sect like Mormonism, and being fairly well known as the group 'that said the end of the world was coming in 1975' and 'that goes door to door', I would think they deserved as much mention as Joseph Smith and the Mormons do in this time line

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Hoping4Change

If this is true

"faith" comes first and produces "works" by it's existence

then why does the organization emphisize, push, coerce and harangue its members to 'get out in service' "or else"? The thought conveyed here (as one would think it would be) is that one's 'faith' motivates one to engage in 'works'; there should be no other motivation - and especially not an "if I do <x> for my works, certainly I will receive Jehovah's blessing" or " I better get my hours in or else I will be counselled or looked down upon by others in the congregation". The very setup in the organization 'steals' (or at the very least interferes with/obstructs) the ability of an individual to be truly inspired by their faith to be motivated to engage in good 'works'. It becomes a sort of contest if 'men' are watching, recording, judging and commenting on another's enaging in (or not) the practice of 'works'. Shouldn't individuals be left to their own to allow faith to build and motivate on its' own and allow Jehovah to see into each individuals heart as to their motivation or lack thereof for 'works'?

Just wondering.

22

EXPLOSIVE RUTHERFORD THREAD RESTORED

by Farkel in

what i consider to be my most important contribution to this board had become corrupted somehow and i thought lost.

while rooting around for some other information, i found a site that had reconstructed the entire 28 page thread!

the thread is much more important than just what i contributed, because many, many people spent money and time doing further research and thread took on a life of its own.. this is an introduction provided at the site i found:.

Hoping4Change

A PDF version would be handy. Is that still available?

I found a pdf copy by Googling for 'Rutherford Exposed Still LIVES! pdf'

41

has anyone looked into Buddhism?

by poor places in

jw
friends

i've started reading a book called the modern buddhist's bible and i'm liking a lot of things about the religion so far.

of course i don't know much yet, but there seem to be some very good points to buddhism.

one thing i love is the emphasis on "killing" the ego (or whatever you might want to call what buddhists try to do with their egos!).

Hoping4Change

Suppose technology effectively ended demand in an economy? That you had all the food, energy and lifespan you could possibly desire. What would happen? Would people die out, lacking natural drives? Have kids? Go crazy because they have nothing to rebel against?

13

What the Pope Knew--CNN 9/25 & 9/26; 7 and 10 pm CST

by blondie in

jw
friends

cnn will air worldwide an hour long special investigation this weekend about the pope's involvement in priest pedophile cases.. .

one hour special report, "what the pope knew," airs on saturday sep. 25 and sunday sep. 26 at 7 and 10 p.m. cst.

compiled by the cnn special investigations unit, the program, "what the pope knew," will run this saturday, september 25 and sunday, september 26 at 7 and 10 p.m. cst.

Hoping4Change

Recorded it - still have to get the chance to watch.

284

To new Christians on JWN

by brotherdan in

i wanted to make a few comments to those of you that have recently begun to question or have already left the wt and made their way onto this site.

this site is a great resource to learn how others are coping with leaving the organization and moving on into a fulfilling life.. i wanted to write this post because i think reading something like this would've been helpful to me to understand where a lot of people that comment on this site are coming from.

you are going to hear from a wide range of people that have moved on to a diverse range of beliefs.

Hoping4Change

God tells us that true contentment comes from knowing Him. If I believe this then what am I to conclude about the true contentment of those that do not believe in God? I leave that to you to answer.

I definitely agree that the 'eliteist' thread is definitely in the Bible, however, I also think other portions of it make it clear that believers shouldn't be taking on airs because of their "knowledge of God". I would think that one would refrain from concluding anything about another's "true contentment", or at the least refrain from voicing or commenting on that conclusion", for while such a conclusion may stem from a type of logical deduction (i.e, one can offer proof text to support the claim), offering/voicing an opinion agreeing with the conclusion comes across as judgmental (regardless if it true) and I think the Bible has a thing or two to say about judging others (even if the judgment happens to be correct). I think that in the original post, had it not included this:

I really think this is why people buy into the atheistic philosophy. They want to eliminate the ulti mate judgment on such sinfulness, consequently, they elimi nate God. It's expedient for them to philosophically get rid of God so that they don't have to live under the guilt and the fear of a coming judgment.

some (including myself) may not have had the same reaction.

As for:

That's a cheap remark from Carl Sagan. It avoids the issue and just throws it back into the creationists court to be dealt with.

I wasn't trying to offer an evolutionist standpoint; from what little I know of it, evolution is not about determining 'first cause'. That said, Sagan's remarks are neither cheap nor avoid the issue. It hits the issue directly on it's head. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". The onus definitely is on "Creationists" to provide the evidence for their extrordinary claims, it originates and is definitely in the "Creationists" court to deal with this question. There is no more reason to believe that "God always existed" then "The Universe always existed". (Perhaps this is why some equate the two). To "choose" one over the other is simply a 'leap of faith' and nothing more (and that is ok, admitting to such is what is important). The "proof" simply does not exist. What does exist are observations and evidences of varying value supporting (or not) each claim.

Information CANNOT come from nothing. It cannot be demonstrated in ANY sense. If you are honest with yourself, you cannot say that it can. There MUST be some sort of intelligence to cause what we see existing in the universe. From the power of the macrocosm to the fragile detail of the micrcosm, it is inexcusable to not believe in some sort of intelligent design.

These very same remarks can be said about 'God', "he cannot come from nothing...." ad infinitum. To not understand (today) how it might be possible for "intelligence to come from non-intelligence" does not, by any logical deduction necessarily mean it cant be so. It simply means we do not know, 'yet'. You may be right, the Bible 'might' be right (to greater or lesser degrees) or you might be wrong and Bible may be wrong. There's a whole world out there to live, love, know and experience - the "truth" is out there. Until Jesus reappears (should that happen) we simply will not know, all we can do is believe (or not. And even if he were to appear, I wonder if the world's reaction might not be one such as that in 'The Grand Inquisitor' from "The Brothers Karamasov"). And if Shiva, Buddha, or somthing else shows up first - we'll know then too.

284

To new Christians on JWN

by brotherdan in

i wanted to make a few comments to those of you that have recently begun to question or have already left the wt and made their way onto this site.

this site is a great resource to learn how others are coping with leaving the organization and moving on into a fulfilling life.. i wanted to write this post because i think reading something like this would've been helpful to me to understand where a lot of people that comment on this site are coming from.

you are going to hear from a wide range of people that have moved on to a diverse range of beliefs.

Hoping4Change

I hate to ask the obvious (and tired) question to the remark that "Intelligence begets intelligence", but if this is true, then what created God? And if there need be a 'first cause' why is it more likely to be God, rather than just 'nature', or 'natural process' itself? Carl Sagan asked much the same:

"If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must, of course ask next where God comes from? And if we decide this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?" - (from Cosmos)

284

To new Christians on JWN

by brotherdan in

i wanted to make a few comments to those of you that have recently begun to question or have already left the wt and made their way onto this site.

this site is a great resource to learn how others are coping with leaving the organization and moving on into a fulfilling life.. i wanted to write this post because i think reading something like this would've been helpful to me to understand where a lot of people that comment on this site are coming from.

you are going to hear from a wide range of people that have moved on to a diverse range of beliefs.

Hoping4Change

The unfortunate thing with this is that it rings of Judeo-Christian elitism. To suggest that "REAL contentment only comes from knowing God." is to suggest that the billions of people who are not of Judeo-Christian persuasion can not have "REAL contentment" - a simply absurd idea and an insult to billions. It's definitely a good thing to suggest that it's possible to find "contentment" and a "meaningful relationship with Jehovah/God/Jesus" in a Christian tradition beyond that offered by the WTBTS, but to suggest that atheism and other of the world's religions can't offer a "REAL contentment" with life smarts of pure arrogance. Additionally, "GOD" is absolutely not neccessary for an individual to lead an ethical and moral life; atheists and other non-Christian individuals can very much be motivated by moral and ethical standards that do not originate with a Judeo-Christian god.

This has always been my hugest issue with typical Judeo-Christian thought - "it's our way or no way". I would suggest that Christians who have broken free of the stranglehold of the JW movement be of open mind in an approach to sprituality. Re-read the bible and ascertain whether, despite the few proof texts provided above, such an elitist approach to the world and spirituality is the only absolute way to interpret what is written therein. Additionally - explore learn and compare, with open heart and open mind, what thousands of years of tradition outside typical Judeo-Christian thought has to offer and discover if perhaps there may actually be some "other way" to a "creator of all things" and explore what Atheism "really means" before condemning them as individuals simply seeking to not "have to live under the guilt and the fear of a coming judgment".

IMHO, to don an elitist and judgmental attitude against/towards those who do not follow or fall in line with Judeo-Christian thought after having broken free of the bonds of JW thought would seem to demonstrate that not much has really changed.