Posts by VanillaMocha73

51

Conversation with a JW

by VanillaMocha73 in

i wrote: .

i saw your email address on the post about the arson at your church.

i was wondering if you could answer some questions about your church?

VanillaMocha73

She writes back (again ignoring my question):

I have done some serious praying and meditation on this. It's clear you have questions, many of them. And they are good questions. I understand being busy, but the thought that comes to mind is this: If you do not take time for Jehovah, why should he take time for you?

Again, it IS taught in the bible, but there aren't enough hours in the day for me to type up all the answers to all the questions you have in a way that will satisfy you. Yes, we were taught by Jesus and the apostles to avoid those who wilfully disobey. And I COULD sit here and type up all the bible references, but the bottom line is, if you don't have time to study the bible, then you won't have time to properly study what I'd send to you in order to gain understanding. We would come to you, when you're free, and go at your pace, for as long as you are comfortable. All you have to do is learn.

I will say this. Every single one of your questions carries within it a theme. That theme is trust. Or, rather, lack of it. The truth is, if you trust Jehovah completely, and you truly understand what the bible really teaches, then you would MAKE time to study the bible. Not read it. It's not a novel. It's not something for entertainment. This is the word of God we're talking about, your everlasting life. If that's not important enough to make time for, then perhaps there are bigger issues at hand.

But when you know what the bible teaches, then you'll know that it also teaches that with each new "edict" or with each person who teaches from the bible, or CLAIMS to do so, we are told to pour over the scriptures, examining them and studying them to make sure in our own hearts that what we heard was truth. If it is, then we accept it. If not, then we reject it. Witnesses as a whole follow the same teachings all over the world. You can walk into any Kingdom Hall anywhere in the world and get the exact same teachings. You can talk to two different Witnesses from two different parts of the world who have never met each other and will find they have the exact same beliefs. Why? Because they're GOD's teachings, not ours. You'll never find two Christians, let alone two Churches that teach the exact same teachings. Why? Because they're MAN's teachings, not God's.

And that is the bottom line. When you build a relationship with God, then Jesus is the head of that organization. For all the rumors, we have no one who is above us. Not one pastor, nobody. Just Jesus. And when you believe in God, then you trust God. When God appoints an elder, then you trust that, because never will that elder try to pass on something as truth that is against bible teachings. Period. How do we know this? Because we study the bible, we study it, and when we come across something that we don't understand, we keep searching and keep praying until we find it. So when we hear something from an elder, or from another witness, we look in the bible to be sure we're hearing truth. There's your difference.

Trusting Jehovah is the key. If you trusted Jehovah, if you trusted God completely, then none of these questions would be an issue because you would understand fully that you cannot run your own life alone. You need God's help. And the only way to TRULY understand what God wants is to study the bible. Not read. Study.

At this point, I want to shift things a bit. Show me bible scriptures that support your point of view. Show me those scriptures, and be sure they're of the same context. Show me your understanding of the bible. I will not hand you the answers to every question you have, for that would defeat the whole purpose of the command Jesus gave us when he told us to go and make disciples. Also, I could not do justice to the bible through email. There is nothing that takes the place of one on one teaching, that's why schools have not all gone virtual. Instead, I want to show you how to learn, and where to find the answers. And the best way to do that is through a bible study.

Your questions all point to fear of losing control. The bottom line is if someone truly believes, then it would show in their life, or their "fruit" if you will. And there's no way that they can know what God really expects of us without actually studying the bible. If someone studies the bible, and understands what they're studying, then the change should come automatically. One of those changes would be making time for further studies. If their life does not change, then they are not truly a believer, regardless of what claims are made.. Remember Jesus' saying "Not everyone who calls out 'Lord Lord' will enter heaven." This alone should motivate everyone on earth to want to know what the bible really teaches. The key to eternal life is obeying Jehovah. Instead of worrying about what man may do, worry about Jehovah. If you're obeying God, then there's no need to fear.

This may come as a surprise, but the bible wasn't meant for just any old person to understand. That's one of the proofs that it is the word of God. IT was meant for only the humble, or the meek, to understand. Someone who truly gives up complete control of thier life to God. The idea that everyone is going to heaven is a lie. And it is a lie which was started by Satan through a man called Nimrod. He's in the bible too. He's the one who created Babylon, and all the other religions. In fact, there is much about Christianity which was actually created by Satan. Satan was very, very clever in changing the word of God just enough that it becomes an abomination in God's eyes. The only achievement he accomplished which was greater than that was to convince the world he doesn't exist.

Do you really want the answers to your questions? Then you're going to have to do a bible study. There's no way on earth I can answer all of your questions and do them justice. You have very good questions, and they do deserve answers, but those answers will only come through your own heart, when you begin to learn what the bible really teaches. I have too much love for you and way too much respect for Jehovah's will to try to teach you all of this through email. I do not know the magic words to make you feel more at ease with us so that you'll agree to learn what the bible really teaches. All I can say is this: If your heart is pure, if your intentions are pure, and if you continue to seek, then you will find.
Safiyah

51

Conversation with a JW

by VanillaMocha73 in

i wrote: .

i saw your email address on the post about the arson at your church.

i was wondering if you could answer some questions about your church?

VanillaMocha73

So.. She ignored my questions, here we go again:

The Bible study would be interesting, but I really don’t have time. Commuting to work, raising 5 children, it all keeps me so busy that I hardly know which end is up. The best I have is my access to the web and email here at work in the off moment and the time I take in the mornings to read my Bible.

You are saying disfellowshipping was taught in the Bible. I see your example from 1 Corinthians which would apply to sexually immoral people, and such. And I (and my church) agree with not condoning homosexuality. We teach that these people need to change their lives in order to come into a saved relationship with Jesus. However, they are welcome to come to our church and learn and we pray for them. I believe that God can change their hearts if they are willing to accept Him – He can remove that desire if they want to work with Him. Of course, as Christians in a relationship with Jesus, we are not going to become homosexuals just because we talk to these people. Nowhere in that scripture does it include the words “shun them.”

Now, what if I did not agree with something the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach? Would I be kicked out of the organization then, even if I do not oppose God’s word? Maybe not? This is what I have heard – is it not true? I understand that everything I read is not always true, so I would love to hear it “from the horse’s mouth” as our saying goes.

You ask if I have come across verses regarding disfellowshipping before. I have – John chapter 9 speaks of the Jews expelling a man from the synagogue after he was healed, because he tried to tell them Jesus was Messiah. The Jews wanted him to say that Jesus was not from God because of healing on the Sabbath, and because he would not agree with their teaching they wanted to expell him. Jesus did not shun him for this, but instead he sought him out.

Didn’t Jesus tell the story of the good shepherd? Where the 99 sheep were safe in the fold, but he went searching for the lost sheep? He did not shun that sheep, but gently carried it back to the fold.

No, God is not flighty – He does not change his mind. But I see many organizations that do change their mind – this is a human trait and very understandable. It does frighten me to allow a human organization the authority to keep me away from God or out of the church.

I know that God loves me unconditionally and that is a wonderful thing. Even if I were to choose to be a lesbian God would continue loving me. He knows us all from the womb onward and knows everything about us. He is committed to our happiness, and if we choose a course that does not result in happiness, He is still right there beside us, waiting to guide us back gently to the fold. I have a co-worker here who is gay. He was raised under some horrible abusive circumstances and that is just the way he turned out. I don’t condone his lifestyle, but try to be understanding and supportive while guiding him to pray to God and come to a relationship with Jesus where he can find the unconditional love that he has missed all his life.

You do touch on a nerve with the part about children beating spouses up. I was a victim of domestic violence. What my ex-husband needed was love from the church – when he received this with extra time and attention on the part of church members, he stopped his negative behaviour. Our church members would routinely invite us into their families and show us a model of how a husband should treat his wife. They were concerned with how he was feeling and what he needed. For example, he was stressed about job and one man took the time to help him find a better job so he would be less stressed. That really helped. I think that church would have fit your mother’s definition of friendship!!! They didn’t just point out the booger – they handed him the Kleenex.

Sadly, we moved away and our new church was not so supportive, so he slid back into the old habits. I truly think that shunning him would actually have caused him to act even worse at home. But that is beside the point…

I read the Bible constantly and whatever Christian books I can find at the library. Max Lucado is one of my favorites. Have you ever read his books? I am studying his book on the Lord’s Prayer now. Awesome!!! It is so wonderful to be part of the kingdom of God.

I have not had the time to have a bible study with Jehovah’s Witnesses. I have done some research on the internet, but have not had opportunity to ask these questions directly before.

You didn’t get a chance to answer my questions about whether Jehovah’s Witnesses consider themselves born again or not?

51

Conversation with a JW

by VanillaMocha73 in

i wrote: .

i saw your email address on the post about the arson at your church.

i was wondering if you could answer some questions about your church?

VanillaMocha73

She pops back:

Disfellowshipping was practiced in the Bible. It was taught, and the apostles all taught the congregations to do it. Disfellowshipping is not done just for the sake of the person who's doing wrong. Rather, it's also done for those who are still in the congregation. Let's face it, we're human and prone to sin. One bad apple can ruin a whole bunch. The best way to get somoene to turn around and realize what they're doing is to take something they care about away from them. And to be frank, if disfellowshipping doesn't serve to turn them around, then they have, in fact, made the choice to willfully turn away from Jehovah. It would serve no one any good to keep them around the congregation where they can affect others.

When you're baptized, you are promising Jehovah your life. Your future. You're making a committment to obey Jehovah, and because there are millions of others who also have committed to Jehovah, you're also in a sense, committing to them. I know not what questions you are referring to which would serve to specifically put any human in control of another. As I have stated, we serve Jehovah. JESUS is our head. Everything we do comes from the bible.

If someone is wilfully disobeying God's will, then believe me, it shows. It's obvious. And if you cannot tell that in your own organization, then that SHOULD be a red flag. Jesus told us we'd know people by their fruit. Be it good fruit or bad. And the bible CAN discern the hearts of men. Jesus told us that if someone disobeys Jehovah wilfully and refuses to change, we're to not let them into the congregation until they see the error of their ways. This really is all through the bible. I'm actually surprised that, with your seeming knowledge of the bible, you haven't come across these verses before. And since Jesus told us to shun those who willfully disobey, and Jehovah's Witnesses do, in fact, shun those who wilfully disobey (but welcome those who show sincere repentance) then where, exactly, is the problem?

It's not like we're talking about someone who chooses to wear pink. We're not talking personal preferences. We're talking biblical truths. We're talking the will of God. Point blank, Jehovah told us to do this, and we do it. It's in the bible, in black and white. To be honest with you, Christian Churches teach that if a person sins, it's between them and God. And look where that got them. Look what's happening in the Christian Church today. I mean, take one denomination, and go to two different churches of the SAME SECT and you'll find two different teachings.

JEhovah guides sincere seekers to the truth, and yet there isn't two single Christian churches on this planet that have the exact same teachings. And this is God's people? Is God so flighty that he cannot make up his mind? Is God a liar? NO! But yet you'll find Christian Churches who embrace homosexuals. However, the bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10

What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.

Greed is preached against in the Christian Churches, and yet when someone shows obvious signs of greed, people say "Well that's his problem, that's between him and God." And I say that's a selfish, self-centered way of thinking. HOW can you possibly be claiming to obey Jehovah's 2 greatest commandments (To love God with your whole heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as Jesus loved us) how can you claim to be obeying Jehovah's two greatest commandments and yet NOT feel the urge to help them overcome it! There's no way you could keep silent about something someone is doing which violates God's commands, not if you really loved them.

If your kids were stealing, would you say, "Well that's between them and God?" No. IF they were beating their spouses up, would you say that it was between them and God? Not if you loved them you wouldn't.

And so it goes with our brothers and sisters. We have an obligation to lift each other up, and we have an obligation to help each other through rough spots. Sometimes that includes tough love, and sometimes that means telling someone something they may not want to hear, but may need to hear. My mother always said that you know a true friend because a true friend will tell you discreetly that you have a booger hanging out of your nose. But if they say nothing, they are not a friend.

The bible expands on this. Truly, this IS in the bible. And if you are really curious about the answers, then why not begin a bible study? As I said to Mary, there really is NO obligation to you. We'll come to where ever you're comfortable, when you want, and go at your pace. You do not have to join to do this, and you are not obligated in any way to do anything other than learn about what the bible really teaches...

Tell me, what biblical research have you done on this other than the verses you quoted below? Have you had a bible study with a witness before? Have you done personal research in the bible to try to figure out why we do this, or is this your first time actually asking about it? I don't mind the question, I'm just curious where you are coming from. To be flat blunt with you, many of your questions could be easily answered through a bible study without in any way compromising your beliefs. What is keeping you from sitting down with a witness and doing a personal bible study?
Safiyah

51

Conversation with a JW

by VanillaMocha73 in

i wrote: .

i saw your email address on the post about the arson at your church.

i was wondering if you could answer some questions about your church?

VanillaMocha73

Sounds typical JW... So I wrote:

A lot of what you say makes sense. If I were to be a child molester or something I could see not wanting to have me in your church, although I’m still not sure about the shunning. How does that express love for the sinner? I don’t shun my children whatever they do. I might discipline them, but good behavior is never brought about by shame – at least not in a healthy relationship.

I don’t understand making a covenant with an organization? From what I have seen of the baptismal questions of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the baptism does dedicate you to their organization. Jesus Christ is my mediator and savior and not an organization. Do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus is everyone’s personal mediator? And how would a group of men be able to judge whether someone willfully disobeyed God? Wouldn’t that be between the person and Jesus, as his mediator? If you or I were to disagree with those men, would we be shunned?

John 14:6 says
“Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (NIV)

And as far as bringing people around to the “right way” from shunning, this does not seem to be Jesus’ example. Just last Sunday, our pastor talked about Peter. He went so far as to actually disown his Lord and Saviour three times, and yet Jesus did not shun him. He went and searched out Peter specially and reminded him of His love.

John Chapter 21 is such a wonderful example of Jesus’ love for us.

I have also heard that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 are born again? Is that true? Doesn’t John 3:3 say that we ALL must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God?
“In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” (NIV)

51

Conversation with a JW

by VanillaMocha73 in

i wrote: .

i saw your email address on the post about the arson at your church.

i was wondering if you could answer some questions about your church?

VanillaMocha73

I wrote:

I saw your email address on the post about the arson at your church. I was wondering if you could answer some questions about your church?

I have heard that you have to be dedicated to an organization or a group of men somewhere to be part of the church and if you ever disagree with them publicly, you will be publicly shunned from all your friends and family? I just don’t see how this could be true of a Christian organization?
She wrote:

I have given thought to just how to respond to this. You have a very valid question, as I mentioned before. And I can see why this might concern you. In your question, there are two distinct concerns that you have expressed. One being what it means to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. And two being the concept of disfellowshipping, or shunning. At first, I was trying to figure out which one you were really wanting to know about but I think you're asking both. So maybe if I explain it this way, it will make sense. I hope so, anyways, if not, then let me know.

When someone seeks to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses, the only concern is whether that person has an accurate knowledge of the bible, and of what it means to be baptized. You see, many christian churches will simply baptize you whenever you want to be, and let that be that. But the Witnesses will not do that. First of all, when you are baptized, you are a member of that organization. You are making a covenant with that organization and with God. And making a promise to God is no small matter.

In spite of what some people would have you believe, Jehovah's Witnesses are concerned first and foremost with making sure they are living in accord with God's will outlined in the Bible. That means that we first must know what the bible teaches, so that we can better understand what Jehovah expects of us. This is the purpose of personal bible studies. To help individuals better understand what the bible teaches. And while we DO hope to gain members, it's not a focus or a goal. We believe firmly that Jehovah will take care of that, and we also believe just as firmly that the bible does speak for itself, once you learn to listen. Our job, our responsibility, is to make sure that each person we study with knows what teh bible teaches, and we do that at their pace, and by allowing them to come to the understanding. Not by telling them what it says. After all, Jesus did say that his sheep would hear his voice and respond. That means that those who are earnestly seeking God will recognize the truth in Jesus's teachings, and will respond to it.

So before someone can become a member of our organization, they must first understand the basics of what the bible teaches. Because in becoming one of the Witnesses, you are making a solemn promise to God. And you should NEVER make a promise to God that you do not intend to keep. It means you will continue to obey God, (not people, but God). It means you will continue to develop a relationship with God. Jesus is the Head of our Organization. Not people. Jesus. We all seek equally to serve Jesus, though we each do it in different ways.

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I am not yet baptized, but I am considered a member of my congregation. And I made no such dedication to any human. Nor would they ever ask me to. Instead, they sought to be sure that I was serious in my love for Jehovah, and that was evident by my understanding of the bible. Just as it is with anyone else.

Now, as I mentioned before, each one of us, upon becoming a member of the organization, has agreed to obey God. And that includes obeying Jesus. Jesus told us to go and make disciples. JEsus told us to love Jehovah with our whole heart, our whole soul and our whole mind. Jesus told us also to love our neighbor as he loved us. And then he told us that every thing rests on our obeying these two commandments.

Now, logically, if one truly does love Jehovah with our whole heart, and our whole soul and our whole mind, then we would WANT to understand the bible. We would WANT to obey. We would WANT to talk to others about God, it shouldn't be forced on us, it should be something we want to do. And yet, some people still cling to thier sinful ways. Some people, after becoming a witness, after making that promise to God that we will love God completely and will love our neighbor, turn around and begin doing exactly what the bible says we are to avoid.

When this happens, we follow bible principles. We talk to the person, show them the scriptures that apply in an attempt to get them to see on their own that they are disobeying God. And if they continue, we try again. There eventually comes a point where it's obvious that this person is not going to stop disobeying God.

There are two types of disobedience. THere's the disobedience of one who doesn't know better. And there's the disobedience of one who does. The one who does, that's called Willful Disobedience. And the bible says that those who are willfully disobedient, they will be destroyed. That's what happened to Adam and it will happen to others too. Permanent Death, and forever wiped from the minds of all, including Jehovah.

And you know, we LOVE our brothers and sisters. We LOVE those who are not in the truth. We don't wish that on ANYONE, but especially not our brothers and sisters. So, as a last resort, we disfellowship them, hoping that being removed from the congregation will serve to accomplish what our talks could not. We hope that it serves to help them to realize that what they're doing is wrong. Disfellowshipping, or shunning, seems so harsh to so many. But you know what? It's not nearly as harsh as what's in store for them if they don't straighten up.

Not hell. What most christian bibles refer to as hell is, in fact, the common grave. Jehovah is a god of Love, and would not cause eternal torment to anyone. But he would, if someone flat refused to obey when they knew better, simply wipe them from existence and forget they ever were. And we seek to prevent that from happening.

Unfortunately, not everyone comes around after being disfellowshipped. Instead, they allow thier pain and anger to grow into hatred, and end up further disobeying God. And when that happens, quite frankly, they've made thier choice. We can do no further until they do come around. When they repent, it shows in their actions. It's obvious. And when that happens, we welcome them back with open arms. It's painful on US to lose someone as well. We hate having to disfellowship someone we love so dearly, but sometimes it has to be done. Just like when you raise kids, sometimes you have to punish them for thier own good, so, too it is with us when we are developing a relationship with our Father, Jehovah.

Thank you for your patience with me, I do hope this answers your questions. If not, then accept my apologies and let me know, so I can better phrase this. If you have other questions, I'd be happy to answer them. Or, better yet, if you can, then your local Kingdom Hall is filled with people who would love to go through these with you.
Safiyah

1

Watchtower Magazine Study Articles

by Honesty in

do the contents of the watchtower magazine study articles come from god?.

does god inspire the watchtower society to write what is in the study articles?.

is god responsible for what is written in the watchtower magazine study articles?.

VanillaMocha73

Well, if they are loyal, they won't be here, will they? Here are there words, though, found on my handy dandy CD. Note how they come from both sides of their mouth:
*** g93 3/22 p. 4 Why So Many False Alarms? ***

The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.... The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers.
*** w94 10/1 p. 8 The Bible—A Book Meant to Be Understood ***

All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave
Or, try this from the 04/1/2007 WT:

when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave's Master.
So.... you figure it out.... Are they inspired? Submit to GB = Submit to Christ, therefore, GB=Christ..... yes? And yet GB is not inspired, so does that mean that Christ was not inspired? We can only understand the Bible if we read the WT, but the WT is not inspired of God, but the Bible is. I'm so confused....

17

Children Do Not Get Enough Sleep in Watchtower

by WTWizard in

this past memorial was an exercise in waste for most people.

drive to the hall, fight for a parking space, get booted out of your seat, and then listen to a stale talk for 45 minutes.

then the big event: passing the plate of crackers and glass of spoiled grape juice.

VanillaMocha73

Let's add to that the fact that they are supposed to skip homework in favor of studying for these meetings.

***

g041/22p.15HowCanIFindTimetoDoMyHomework?***

Schoolwork is important, but as Jesus pointed out to Martha, the most important pursuits—‘the good portions’—are spiritual ones. Make sure that homework does not crowd out such important activities as Bible reading, participation in the ministry, and attendance at Christian meetings. These are things that will enrich your life eternally!

***

w989/1p.19BeSuretoPutFirstThingsFirst!***

Or you are a student. In your room, your desk is piled high with homework. Most of it was assigned some time ago, but you have procrastinated, and now several assignments are due at once. You are tempted to ask for your parents’ permission to stay home from the meeting to finish your homework.... Parents who are conscious of their own spiritual needs help their children to appreciate Christian meetings. As a general rule, they expect their children to do their homework as it is assigned rather than allow assignments to accumulate. On meeting nights the children do their homework as soon as they return home from school. Hobbies and other activities are not permitted to interfere with congregation meetings.... As a teenager, do you schedule your homework around the meetings or the meetings around your homework?

And of course, they must not be allowed to fall asleep on these late nights:

***

w003/15p.17par.7HowJehovahIsLeadingUs***

When a child goes to school, he is expected to pay attention to the teacher, even when a particular subject does not appeal to him or seems beyond his grasp. The teacher knows that if the child tries to pay attention, he will derive at least some benefit from the lesson. Is it not reasonable, then, for school-age children to pay attention to the instruction provided at congregation meetings rather than be allowed to fall asleep as soon as the meeting begins? Hence, some parents arrange for their children to take a nap before the meetings so that they will arrive at the Kingdom Hall refreshed and ready to learn. Certain parents may strictly limit or even wisely rule out television viewing for their children on meeting nights.

Yeah - children sensistive? Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

64

Board Demographics

by snowbird in

jw
friends

maybe this thread has already been started before.

please forgive me if it has, but i would like to know how many on board are active witnesses, inactive, da/df''d, or never been witnesses.. i am inactive since 2005, black female, separated, head of household, etc.. rsvp.

snowbird.

VanillaMocha73

To borrow a phrase, I was raised in the Lie from almost birth. White, divorced (remarried), df'd since summer 2005. Kept up meetings until early 2006. 6 children total - only 1 still somewhat associated with the truth.

35