Posts by ElderBarry

20

Witnesses View - Council of Nicea (serious thread)

by Confucious in

.

ok.... just trying to find a better understanding here.... no stupid posts like, "...because it's the governing body.

" - please.. ok.... how do the witness justify the bible and at the same time condem catholicism et all.... i mean, the books in the bible were picked by the council of nicea - which according the the witnesses - were part of the great appostasy and sanctioned by the same group of religious leaders they condemn..

ElderBarry

Hi Confuscious! The first official Catholic church council that was held to attempt a settlement of the question of the contents of the New Testament was the Catholic Council of Laodicea in 363 AD, not the Council of Nicea. However, the Catholic laypeople did not universally accept the decision of the Catholic council of Laodicea so the dispute continued. There continued to be Catholic Church councils held to decide this issue. for a long time. Such as the Council of Hippo in 393 AD, the Council of Carthage in 397 AD, and the Trullian Council in 692 AD. Somewhere in this time frame the Catholic Church finally settled on which books it would and would not accept. Scholars debate and quibble as to which exact Catholic council settled the issue once and for all. Athanasius--the Roman Catholic Bishop of in 367 AD listed the books of the NT as we have them today. Yeah, the NT is a Roman Catholic presentation from start to finish. I like the way the LDS Church has a semi-suspicious attitude toward the New Testament! I hope this helped. -Lisa

20

Watchtower Chess....My move

by Black Sheep in

i asked my sil if he can help me to get copies of july 1 through to sept 1 watchtowers.

he knows that i am disillusioned with the wt and that i am born in, but never been baptised and he doesn't shun me.. here is his reply.. "yes i can help, but it would depend on why you wanted them and what you wanted to accomplish by reading those issues, :-).

i have had a few ideas on how to reply, but i would like to hear your comments before i reply.. .

ElderBarry

"I'm not 100% sure I'm correct on this matter. Hopefully, those issues will help clear this matter up for me. Either way, when I'm finished reading them, I'd appreciate it if you'd discuss this matter with me. I don't want to turn out to be wrong." There is no falsehood in this statement is there? Are you 100% sure? (I'm not 100% sure about a lot of things) -Lisa

17

A new "class" for the goobering body.

by IP_SEC in

the wts is fond of associating itself with great men of the bible claiming to be of this or that class (john class, isaiah class and so on).

they claim god given authority to keep his people clean and to make rules to cover situations not found in the bible.. pharisee rule not found in the law.. *** w96 9/1 12 the law before christ ***.

pharisee rule not found in the law.. *** w96 9/1 12 the law before christ ***.

ElderBarry

Hi IP_SEC! This is an excellent article. This is one of the more important issues that finally made me see what a load of malarky the WTS was. I saw the whole thing as pharasaic, including the rank and file. THANKS for the reference material. I'm going to print this out and give it to one of the girls I work with who is studying with the Dubs. -Lisa

35

Hi! Any other Latter Day Saints here?

by ElderBarry in

jw
friends

hi my name is lisa.

i'm not an elder of course and never have been.

i was a jw for just a few years and then relocated and left it behind.

ElderBarry

Wow! I didn't expect such a big response! Thank you! Your folks ure know how to make a newbie feel welcome.

I'll try to answer everyone. First, though, to Deputy Dog and others who claim the LDS Church isn't Christian, I feel sad that nothing I say will make any impact on your mind or heart. So I won't even try. You should though make a list of all the verses where Jesus said "You shall know my disciplies by their strictly fundamentalist or evangelical doctrines." Ddog, I would also encourage you to stop usurping God's place as Judge. However, if you are unable to desist from playing God, at least judge by the criteria given by the Bible: Christ said people will know his disciples by their love for one another, and the Apostle John said that those who acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh are of God. John even went so far as to say that those who Love know God because God is love. You're one of those people that will be shocked and screaming at God in heavne because he let the riffraff in, people you judges unworthy because of their doc-ter-ines. Sad.

JW Daughter! Hi again! Thank you for the welcome to the board! I know there is a loving personal God because I experience that Love. I don't literally believe the doctrines. I see them as mythology. It's the experience of God but directly and through my fellow Saints that I have faith in. I have met a number of Mormons who believe the same way. The LDS Church is the only Church I've experienced God's Love so intensely in. It's the only Church where I've experienced the people being really close with eahc other and taking care of each other. Wouldn't it be funny and just like God if He chose the LDS Church to bless in this way precisely because their doctrines aren't the norm? Sort of like chooisng Samson because Samson was such a nut! Thats not a very good analogy, but I hope it gets the point across. Anyway, it would be great if you could find an inner way to embrace the Church and maintain your intellectual integrity. I've done it and my years as an LDS Christian have been the happiest of my life.

Elderwho, I think I covered that when I explained that all religions are mythological. You can read my very short profile. That pretty much explains things.

Hi Reefton Jack. I'm sorry you had such a long ordeal with the JWs. Mine was short by comparison. Why not give those crazy Mormons a try for a couple of Sundays and some social outings? You just might like it and stick around for the friendship.

Wozadummy, I really won't engage in doctrinal wrangling. How would you like to argue about whether Hercules wore a toga and ate baklava or if he ran around naked and ate smoked oysters? No? Me neither. I'm sorry you feel you were forced out of the LDS Church. Maybe you can return and let your brethren love you with agape? I hope so.

Kid-A, I hope I'm totally wrong, but you seem very upset and bitter. It will harm you. Also, I'm no cultist. I'm an intelligent, educated, 21st century woman. As I made clear and plain, what I actually believe in is the experience of God's love and the experience of transcendence. I experience those as an LDS Christian. I never did in any other church anywhere near to this degree and with this power. Not even in the pentecostal church. I'm sorry you have had negative experiences with the LDS folks in your family. You might try fellowshipping with your local Ward and see if the negativity holds true there as well. I'm betting it doesn't.

Hi jgnat. Thats sad. I can add some negative and crazy experiences I've had too, but they are a drop in the bucket compared to the positive experiences.

Susan Here! Yes! Isn't it so wonderful? To have gone through the horrible ordeal of the WTS mess and then be rewarded by such divine love?! I still cry sometimes and get on my knees and thank God with my whole being for the goodness and love he's shown me! It was quite something to read of your JW sisters praise of the LDS Church, and then read that she clings to the darkness of the WT religion anyway! I love Temple too. Thank you for the welcome.

Fullofdoubtnow: I do have need of the Church. It's been God's way of healing me, healing me inside of all the rotten stuff that happened as a JW. I couldnt and wouldnt walk a solitary path. You're a person of great determinationa and strength to be able to do so.

Looking_glass, that prolly won't happen soon. Yet, the women in my Ward have talked about this many times. I don't know of any women in my Ward who would want a position of leadership such as bishop or stake president even if it were open to them. Especially the mothers. We all feel that we have enough responsibility and work as it is, and we're grateful there are men willing to shoulder the burden. Instead of just studying about the Mormons from a safe distance, how about doing the unsafe thing and getting to know us as people? Your local Ward would love to see you, and you'd know then that the authority is not exercised in the way it is in Watchtower religion.

Hi Danny Hazard! Thank you for letting me know! There are negative experiences to be had as a Mormon, but far more positive experiences. Far more.

Last but NOT LEAST! Hi Double Edge! Thank you for letting me know that your experiences with the Church are so similar to my own. Thank you for the welcome too. Perhaps like me you'll be hooked and decide that the LDS Church is the "path" for you. I know the Heavenly Father will continue to bless you.

Thanks again everyone.

Lisa

24

the all knowing god?

by the dreamer dreaming in

dont know if this has been discussed or not...but.... it always bothered me when people claimed that god is all knowing... what exactly does that really mean or can mean?.

after all, according to all, there was some point when only god existed and so its pretty easy to be all knowing when there is nothing to know.. but why should we assume that a being who had no one teach him and nothing to learn from could be anything but insane?.

we should trust god, some have told me, because he made everything and therefore knows everything about what he made... sorry, but that does not follow at all.. my subconscious, apparently, seems to be able to manifest many dreams of very complex things which leaves me puzzled as to their workings not understanding them at all..... the bible shows god to be less than all knowing on many occasions, especially in genesis 18:20-21 where he is going to investigate a report that has come to him.... from where or who we are not told.... but it makes it clear he is desiring to find out if the report is accurate or not... .

ElderBarry

Hi River. I have gotten close with many people in my Ward. Certainly, my own views are not the majority, by any means. Yet, I've discovered nine people in my own Ward and several more from other Wards who think as I do. We're members of the LDS Church because it's where we have found the reality of God's love, directly from God and indirectlly through people. Most of these people were born into the Church. That was my criteria for choosing a Church, a religion. My Testimony to the Church is now very strong, very strong. Arguments about history and doctrines go right past me. All I care about is the reality of God's Love that I'm experiencing and living. I suppose I could have chosen to be a Unitarian Universalist, and although most of them are very nice people, and their belief are very logical, I never felt God at all in the Unitarian Universalist church.

A river of God's blessings to you River,
Lisa

35

Hi! Any other Latter Day Saints here?

by ElderBarry in

jw
friends

hi my name is lisa.

i'm not an elder of course and never have been.

i was a jw for just a few years and then relocated and left it behind.

ElderBarry

Hi Everyone! Thank you so much for posting back to me! Yes, Megadude I have read "Under the Banner Of Heaven." I've also read Gerald and Sandra Tanners anti-Mormon books. Before I became a Mormon I read everything against the Church I could get my hands on. During that time I was also very involved in the life of my Ward. I had already made up my mind that:

1. Jesus Christ said that His true followers would be known by their LOVE not by their "correct doctrine." ("Correct" by whose standards?) Other Christians focus on the most nitpicking nonsense imaginable. I have never experienced the Love of God with another people as I have the LDS Church, both directly and through other Latter Day Saints.

2. All religions are simply attempts to give a conceptual structure to the experience of the Numinous. Joseph Smith Jr. had a powerful experience of the Divine and attempted to convey that experience in mythological form: The Book Of Mormon. So, I am unconcerned with the historical factuality of it all. I'm concerned with the FRUIT IT BEARS. I see it bearing very wonderful fruit in my own life, in the lives of my beloved fellow Saints in my local Ward, and the Church worldwide. Being composed of humans the Church is imperfect and you will not see perfection. There is some negative fruit. Yet, it's very minor overall. Yes, the Church is a bit slow and backward as to women, but trust me given time that will change.

When I was a Jehovah's Witness, I NEVER felt that the Governing Body cared anything about me as a person, or even the local elders. I was simply a loudspeaker for their doctrines and a money machine. My fellow Witnesses were suspicious, paranoid, snoopy, and out to find some reason to make trouble for each other. Yuck. Plus I hated the world and life when I was a JW. I couldn't wait for the system of things to end, for the great trib and battle of armageddon. As a Mormon, I love life, and I know that my leaders care about me as a person! My Bishop and Stake President are wonderful men, Godly men, deeply spiritual men, who give so much of their time and effort that I feel humbled. My local Ward is composed mainly of people who also love life, love God, and most importantly of all, love each other. I have genuine friends now, people who are always there for me, and I for them. This is as close to Heaven as a person can get in this life!

I burst into tears when I was baptized! I was so overcome by the Spirit of God! I knew that I had found my spiritual Home. I trembled with elation and the power of the Holy Spirit when I first stepped into a Temple. I never knew how important it is to the human psyche to have sacred space! I do now! A Temple is a very sacred place, far more so than any other building. It's been consecrated, set aside as a something special for God's use. Only those worthy can enter, not just anyone. You have to become worthy and demonsrate that worthiness in your life, not just say, "I'm worthy! Let me in!" The ceremonies in the Temple are special secrets, or should be. It's sad that misguided former LDS Christians reveal so much. Anyway, a Temple is a breathtaking earthly embodiment of the Heavenly Reality and I can FEEL that, experience that, in a deeply moving concrete way. A way that brings light and life and joy into my mind and into my life!

So yes, Justin, I'm a new order Mormon, I think. If a new order Mormon recognizes that myth gives form to Mystery, and that what matters is Divine Love and Transcendence, then yes I am.

I'm not an ex-Mormon, I'm an ex-JW, so I'm not interested in message boards for those who've left the Church. For anyome who has been embittered by the JW experience (I certainly was) and thinks that the LDS Church must be the same, uh uh. They're different as night and day, almost. One is almost complete darkness, the JWs. The other is almost complete light, the LDS church. (No, I'm not starry eyed; it's hard to be starry eyed when you have a very liberal understanding of religiona dn spirituality) So Wozadummy, yes, the Church masde mistakes and is making mistakes right now as I type this. Religious institutions are very slow to change. They have to be. It takes time to sort out which changes are for the good and which aren't. How mnay of you would respect the LDS Church if it simply changed with the times. like pop culture? You wouldnt respect it at all. So, the Church takes it slow. The leaders have an experience of the love of God just as I do, and they try to respond in a loving way. Thye want to guide the Church into safe waters. I appreciate this, and I am educated enough to know why it has to be slow. Wozadummy, yes, there are strange things in the LDS Church. One can focus on those things, and become very strange, angry, and bitter, or one can see them for the abberations that they are and put them into perspective.

I am a very social person and not interested in a solitary path, or to join some strange little sect that meets in living rooms and peers out at the world in fear and hate. Being a positive person I prefer to see the glass as half full. Trust me, its a much better way to go through life. I could stay very bitter because of my JW experience, but I choose not to.

Qcmbr, I will answer your PM very soon! Thank you for writing me!

Juni, yes, "whatever floars your boat" as you say. I like that.

JW Daughter, all religious teachings are kooky if looked at in the cold light of reason. I have a glowing, powerful Testimony based on my experience of God's Love in the LDS Church, the sense of Transcendence, not because the doctrine makes sense the way Aristotlean logic makes sense. Perhaps you could return with a new understanding? A new standard of judgement? I hope so. It really is the only Church for me. I love your comment: " have never met a nicer group of people and if they are all faking it, they do a remarkable job at it!! If I could get past my conscience (and didn't have to live with my hubby) I would probably be one now. Tithing and all." God loves you so very much, and God has people all over the world who love God right back! They show this love for each other and hang tight as a Body. Come back to us and just rest in God. Just rest in that Love. God doesn't care about the doctrines, God cares about the Love. You know that you experienced the Love of God in the LDS Church. I know it too. None of us are perfect, though you will find a few that think so.

God's blessings to you all. Thank you for the wonderful welcome!

Lisa

27

What if we wrote letters to the Society.....

by Lady Liberty in

goodmorning all and "happy saturday"!!.

i recently had a very upsetting conversation regarding my stand with my active aunt.

for 4 hours i tried to reason with her on many issues.

ElderBarry

Hi Crumpet! Oddly enough my family won't associate with me because I became a "Mormon." They didn't care that I became a JW because my Aunt Ida had been a lifelong Witness, so it was something they were used to. But within a few days of my becoming a "Mormon" I became an outcast, and I mean an outcast. No one except my older sister Linda will talk to me. So, yeah, I know the drill. Yet, that's their decision and their life. I could become fixated on it and let it seriously affect my life and my enjoyment of it, but I don't. It's a decision, a choice. I know it hurts, Crumpet, it hurts me to. Yet I can't give any more of my life to it when there is just so much to enjoy and explore and learn. Lisa alias EB.

24

the all knowing god?

by the dreamer dreaming in

dont know if this has been discussed or not...but.... it always bothered me when people claimed that god is all knowing... what exactly does that really mean or can mean?.

after all, according to all, there was some point when only god existed and so its pretty easy to be all knowing when there is nothing to know.. but why should we assume that a being who had no one teach him and nothing to learn from could be anything but insane?.

we should trust god, some have told me, because he made everything and therefore knows everything about what he made... sorry, but that does not follow at all.. my subconscious, apparently, seems to be able to manifest many dreams of very complex things which leaves me puzzled as to their workings not understanding them at all..... the bible shows god to be less than all knowing on many occasions, especially in genesis 18:20-21 where he is going to investigate a report that has come to him.... from where or who we are not told.... but it makes it clear he is desiring to find out if the report is accurate or not... .

ElderBarry

Kissing Hanks Ass is a great little video and leaflet. It would be great if everyone realized that all religions are mythological, and the only thing thats real is the experience of divine love and transcendence. There are a lot of LDS Christians who understand this. More so among those who were born into the Church.

24

the all knowing god?

by the dreamer dreaming in

dont know if this has been discussed or not...but.... it always bothered me when people claimed that god is all knowing... what exactly does that really mean or can mean?.

after all, according to all, there was some point when only god existed and so its pretty easy to be all knowing when there is nothing to know.. but why should we assume that a being who had no one teach him and nothing to learn from could be anything but insane?.

we should trust god, some have told me, because he made everything and therefore knows everything about what he made... sorry, but that does not follow at all.. my subconscious, apparently, seems to be able to manifest many dreams of very complex things which leaves me puzzled as to their workings not understanding them at all..... the bible shows god to be less than all knowing on many occasions, especially in genesis 18:20-21 where he is going to investigate a report that has come to him.... from where or who we are not told.... but it makes it clear he is desiring to find out if the report is accurate or not... .

ElderBarry

This is a good argument against God being eternal with no beginning. Such a being would have gone crazy. A God who had a beginning is much more lovable and real than an abstract God from philosophy.

35

Hi! Any other Latter Day Saints here?

by ElderBarry in

jw
friends

hi my name is lisa.

i'm not an elder of course and never have been.

i was a jw for just a few years and then relocated and left it behind.

ElderBarry

Hi my name is Lisa. I'm not an elder of course and never have been. I was a JW for just a few years and then relocated and left it behind. It's an ugly nasty dark and morbid religion, very anti-social and maladjusted. Now I'm a Latter Day Saint and happy. The LDS Church is almost the mirror image of the WT religion. I'm not a fundamentalist "Mormon" though. Read my profile for a short paragraph about my attitude toward religion in general and the LDS Church in particular. Still, I love the LDS Church! God has never been so real to me as "He" is now. I've been a "Mormon" for just a few years now. I chose the name Elder Barry because that was the name of the elder, the missionary, that brought me into the Church.