Posts by thirdwitness

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

And while I'm thinking of it heres the answer to a question that someone posed about no one knowing the day or hour.

No one knows the day or hour of Armageddon. That doesn't mean we can't know when Jesus began to rule as the king of God's Kingdom.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Auldsoul: "Iddan" does not have to mean more than 7 years. It can mean less than 7 years with equal facility. It can mean "measure of time", or "season" and if you were aware of this possibility prior to posting this false statement then your statement was sophistic. Were you aware that "iddan" can be less than a year, thirdwitness? If so, then you already knew your statement that "it must mean more than 7 years" was false, since you already knew of another possibility.

The question that you should be asking is why didn't Daniel just spell out how long Neb was to be crazy. Why didn't he say 7 years or 3.5 years or 1260 days or whatever the time period. Jehovah knew the time and could have pinpointed it. The reason is obvious to those who can reason and are willing to dig into God's word and connect the dots. Daniel had to convey the length of time for Neb but also the length of time until God would place the lowliest one, the rightful king on His throne. So he used the word iddan which could convey both time periods.

The same question again: Why didn't John in Revelation just say 3.5 years or 1260 days or 42 months. He had no reason to throw 3.5 times in there. Oh but yes he did. How else could we know what the 7 times were equal to unless the Bible told us. And fortunately it did.

Now if you want to argue that the Bible does not tell us how long 7 times is then be my guest. But you have got to know that it clearly does tell us. For those who want to connect the obvious dots, it is there for you to do. For those who don't, then keep on listening to one who doesn't even believe the Bible is God's word. I'm talking about AlanF. Perhaps one day you can be like him and surpass God's word.

For those who want it on a silver platter. Sorry. Thats not how Jehovah works. The Bible was written in such a way to discern to intentions of the heart. For those not truely wanting to know. They give up and quit. For those wanting to know the truth, they dig into God's word. That is why Jesus spoke in illustrations. He could have plainly told everything so that everyone today could understand but it was his intention to cull out those not really interested, those who did not care to dig deep and learn more.

Proverbs 2:1 1 My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, 2 so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment; 3 if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, 4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, 5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Auldsoul said: Are you aware that the word translated "weeks" in Daniel 9 literally means "weeks of years"?

I strongly disagree with you here and so does a ton of Bible translations.

New American Standard Bible "Seventy weeks have been decreed

American standard version: Seventy weeks are decreed

New KJ: "Seventy weeks are determined

Authorized KJ: Seventy weeks are determined

Holman Christian Standard: Seventy weeks are decreed

New Revised Standard: Seventy weeks are decreed

Strong's KJV: Seventy weeks are determined

Young's Literal translation: Seventy weeks are determined

New INternational readers: "The Lord has appointed 70 'weeks'

Webster's Bible: Seventy weeks are determined

Hebrew's name version: Seventy weeks are decreed

Complete Jewish Bible: "Seventy weeks have been decreed

New World Translation: “There are seventy weeks that have been determined

There are more.

The word used is Shabuwa` (Transliterated Word). It is translated as weeks throughout the Bible. Even in the book of Daniel at 10:2,3: In those days I, Daniel, had been mourning for three entire (shabuwa) weeks. I did not eat any tasty food, nor did meat or wine enter my mouth, nor did I use any ointment at all, until the entire three (shabuwa) weeks were completed.

Would you argue that Daniel did not eat for 3 weeks of years or 21 years?

Some Bible translations have rendered Daniel 9:24 as 'weeks of years' because they are doing more than translating, they are interpreting what was meant and they are correct in their interpretation. But I guarantee you that if Jesus would have appeared in a literal 70 weeks or just over one year not one translation would have translated it as 70 'weeks of years'. Logic and reasonableness dictates that Daniel did not just mean 70 weeks or a little over one year. These 70 weeks (by applying a day for a year) pointed to the Messiah. Likewise, using logic and reasonableness, the 7 times was not 2520 days (607 to 600) but rather 2520 years. This again pointed to the Messiah but this time as coming in his kingly power.

All Daniels prophecy are about God's Kingdom. Daniel 4 is no exception.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

These questions remain which are basically 3 questions:

Are you aware that the word translated "weeks" in Daniel 9 literally means "weeks of years"?

"Iddan" does not have to mean more than 7 years. It can mean less than 7 years with equal facility. It can mean "measure of time", or "season" and if you were aware of this possibility prior to posting this false statement then your statement was sophistic. Were you aware that "iddan" can be less than a year, thirdwitness? If so, then you already knew your statement that "it must mean more than 7 years" was false, since you already knew of another possibility.

The rest are asking about how and why make the day for a year application.

I will get to these later.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

This from auldsoul: Q) Where in Daniel chapter 4 does it specifically say that the 7 times applies to God's rulership? (A) It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible, much less in Daniel chapter 4.(Q) Where does the Bible specifically say that the tree dream in Daniel chapter 4 has any other application? (A) Nowhere. It isn't in the Bible, unless you include the Bound Volume "Talmud" of Jehovah's Witnesses as part of the Bible, which most JWs do.(Q) Do the passages in Ezekiel 17, 19, 21 and Revelation 12 and Isaiah 6 specifically comment on the passage from Daniel chapter 4 or specifically connect it to what these other chapters are saying? (A) No.

Also answered above and is the same thing that cabisilas asked.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Auldsoul: Did the prophecy of Daniel 4 say that a ruler of God's Kingdom would come forth at the end of the seven times? No. So, why do you interpret a second fulfillment into the prophecy where there is no indication of one?

This question is the same as cabisilas' question which is answered above.

But the answer is Yes, Daniel showed that Jehovah's rulership was forever and that he would put whomever he liked as ruler of his kingdom even the lowliest one of mankind which was to be Jesus that he would appoint as king. This would happen at the end of the 7 times.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

This leaves us with these questions remaining except for any new ones that might have been asked:

Auldsoul: Did the prophecy of Daniel 4 say that a ruler of God's Kingdom would come forth at the end of the seven times? No. So, why do you interpret a second fulfillment into the prophecy where there is no indication of one?

Outside of application to the specific judgment prophecies wherein "a day for a year" is stipulated, the usage is completely unnecessary.

Are you aware that the word translated "weeks" in Daniel 9 literally means "weeks of years"?

"Iddan" does not have to mean more than 7 years. It can mean less than 7 years with equal facility. It can mean "measure of time", or "season" and if you were aware of this possibility prior to posting this false statement then your statement was sophistic. Were you aware that "iddan" can be less than a year, thirdwitness? If so, then you already knew your statement that "it must mean more than 7 years" was false, since you already knew of another possibility.

Q) Where in Daniel chapter 4 does it specifically say that the 7 times applies to God's rulership? (A) It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible, much less in Daniel chapter 4.(Q) Where does the Bible specifically say that the tree dream in Daniel chapter 4 has any other application? (A) Nowhere. It isn't in the Bible, unless you include the Bound Volume "Talmud" of Jehovah's Witnesses as part of the Bible, which most JWs do.(Q) Do the passages in Ezekiel 17, 19, 21 and Revelation 12 and Isaiah 6 specifically comment on the passage from Daniel chapter 4 or specifically connect it to what these other chapters are saying? (A) No.

Midget: ThirdWitness: Seems to me that the Society is arbritary in how it picks and chooses which times are literal days and which are years. Am I correct in understanding how you responded to Steve and AuldSoul's query about this?

Jayhawk: How does the day for a year rule apply to the Gentile Times Prophecy? As another person has already said, the day for a year rule applied to only 2 prophecies listed in the Bible where it says that would be how it worked. Where is the day for a year rule in the Gentile Times Prophecy? How are we to know that rule is to be used? How are we to know if it is a figurative prophecy with figurative rules, or is it to be taken literally? Again, where are the text clues for the reader to use decernment?

And jayhawk says of what I wrote concerning applying a day for a year: I don't understand any of this.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Further answer for cabisilas:

Here at Isa 6:11, notice what is said in conjunction with the desolation of Jerusalem and the restoration of the seed that will come forth: "At this I said: 'How long, O Jehovah?' Then he said: 'Until the cities actually crash in ruins, to be without an inhabitant, ( This happened in 607) and the houses be without earthling man, and the ground itself is ruined into a desolation; 12 and Jehovah actually removes earthling men far away, and the deserted condition does become very extensive in the midst of the land. 13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump ; a holy seed will be the stump of it."

While this scripture had fulfillment when Jerusalem was restored in 537BCE it would also certainly apply to the holy seed which is to rule God's Kingdom, the foremost of who is Jesus Christ himself. Yes the big, massive tree was chopped down when Jerusalem was destroyed in 607BCE but there was a stump left and that stump is comprised of the holy seed, those who rule in God's Kingdom. Again further proof that the tree dream does indeed have direct bearing on God's Kingdom and His rulership.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

cabasilas: But, does Daniel specifically say there is any other application to the tree dream? ...So, I think you've basically said that if we look at Daniel chapter 4 alone there is no specific application to anything other than what happened to Nebuchadnezzar. How do the "other scriptures" you cited "connect Daniel 4" to the interpretation you are proposing? Do any of them specifically connect Daniel 4? Yes, they use the same metaphor of trees but do they specifically connect Daniel 4? Are you interpreting from the text or reading into the text?

Yes Daniel definitely does connect God's rulership to the tree dream. That is the theme of Daniel and specifically Daniel 4. From the very outset of Daniel chapter 4 the theme is set. In verse 3 we read of Jehovah, "How grand his signs are, and how mighty his wonders are! His kingdom is a kingdom to time indefinite, (I do not believe that Neb's rulership was to time indefinite) and his rulership is for generation after generation." (But Neb's is not for generation after generation). Continuing the theme the Bible explains the reason for the dream in simple terms at Dan 4:17, "to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.” Yes, God's everlasting rulership toward the earth and his choosing of whomever he sees fit to place in the position of rulership is the centralized theme of Daniel 4.

Now if you don't want to look at other parts of the Bible and dig deeply so that you can understand the rest of the Bible then no you will not find any answers. As has been said before, the Bible interprets itself and so we do not have to guess about the meaning of Daniel chapter 4 at all. Incredibly, similar words of Daniel 4:17 are used concerning the kingship of Zedekiah. Ezekiel 21:25-27 reads concerning Zedekiah: "As for you, O deadly wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, whose day has come in the time of the error of the end, this is what the Lord Jehovah has said, Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no ones until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him."

Ezekiel 17, 19, and 21 all help explain just what Daniel 4 means.

Read Ezekiel 21. In reading the entire chapter of Ezekiel 21 did you notice that Jehovah has a sword that he will unsheath upon Judah because of their rebelliousness. It is concerning that sword that the question is asked in verse 10, “Is it (the executional sword) rejecting the scepter (rulership) of my own son (Israel), as [it does] every tree?"

12 “‘Cry out and howl, O son of man, for it itself has come to be against my people; it (Jehovah's sword) is against all the chieftains of Israel." Amazing! Exactly paralleling Neb's tree dream, Jehovah's sword will even cut down the tree or scepter or rulership of Israel. This connects Ezekiel 21 to Daniel 4.

The cutting down of the tree or rulership of Israel is of great significance because those kings of Israel represented Jehovah's rulership in the earth.

1 Chronicles 29:23 tells us, "And Sol´o·mon began to sit upon Jehovah’s throne as king in place of David his father" From this we can see that the kings of Israel did indeed represent Jehovah's rulership on earth.

It is in this regard that Lamentations 4:20 written after the desolation of Jerusalem and the end of Zedekiah tells us, "The very breath of our nostrils, the anointed one (king of Israel) of Jehovah, has been captured in their large pit, The one of whom we have said: “In his shade we shall live among the nations.” By using the word shade in connection with the king of Israel we are once again reminded of the large tree in Daniel 4 that would provide protective shade covering for all. This is the same protective tree-like shade that God's rulership provided as represented by the kings of Israel.

So ask yourself this: Out of 'every tree' or scepter or rulership that Jehovah's sword would cut down by means of Babylon which tree would be unbanded and restored in the future, receiving kingship from Jehovah himself as he saw fit? Which one would provide the 'lowliest' twig that would shoot forth and become a majestic cedar in Jehovah's Holy Mountain put on high like no other? It could only be the tree picturing Jehovah's rulership as represented by the kings of Judah who were said to 'sit upon Jehovah's throne'. It could only be that Judean tree which for 7 times would remain banded but thereafter would bring forth God's chosen ruler of all the earth.

Read the chapters in Ezekiel. Do you see the connection that the Bible makes between Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 21 and 17? Compare Daniel 4:17 "that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind"

And compare Ezek 21:26,27 about the end of Zedekiah's rule and the beginning of Jesus' rule, "Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one's] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him."

And Ezekiel 17:24 "And all the trees of the field will have to know that I myself, Jehovah, have abased the high tree, have put on high the low tree, have dried up the still-moist tree and have made the dry tree blossom. I myself, Jehovah, have spoken and have done [it]."

In all 3 Bible texts it is mentioned that the low will be put on high and that Jehovah is the one giving the rulership to whomever he chooses. There can be no doubt that the tree pictures God's rulership. The end of Zedekiah ends that rulership and is replaced by gentile rulership. The rulership continues once again when the one who has the legal right returns, the twig of Jesse if you will, and once again takes over that rulership.

So to answer your questions:

But, does Daniel specifically say there is any other application to the tree dream? ...Yes he does.

So, I think you've basically said that if we look at Daniel chapter 4 alone there is no specific application to anything other than what happened to Nebuchadnezzar. No I am not saying that.

How do the "other scriptures" you cited "connect Daniel 4" to the interpretation you are proposing? Ezekiel 17, 19, 21 all have connection to Daniel 4 as shown. Go back and read the whole subheading what the tree dream means for further details on each chapter.

Do any of them specifically connect Daniel 4? Yes they do.

Yes, they use the same metaphor of trees but do they specifically connect Daniel 4? Yes I have shown that they do.

Are you interpreting from the text or reading into the text? I am letting the Bible interpret itself and it does.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Jayhawk: Watchtower's crap that they publish? Really? They are the biggest supporters of your Gentile Times Prophecy, are they not? Please explain why you say the Watchtower publishes crap.

When I said this I was referring to what other people were saying about the WT publications.