Posts by thirdwitness

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Auldsoul said: thirdwitness,

Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! (1999) p. 94 par. 24

"But remember, the tree stands for rulership and sovereignty far grander than that of Babylon’s king. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, 'the King of the heavens,' especially with respect to the earth."

Do you agree with the statement in the Daniel's Prophecy book? I ask because this is what you wrote:

thirdwitness: The tree does not picture Jehovah himself or his everlasting rulership as sovereign of the universe.

Please answer the question. It is a yes or no question.

I say: Don't you just hate it when people use the WT publication in a attempt to prove their points. If I can start quoting WT publications and you are willing to accept them as truth then I am afraid you will lose all of your arguments hands down. Oh but you enemies of 607 already are losing your arguments hands down. So that you are reduced to silly cartoons and name calling and of course the ususal statement of, 'You refuse to answer my questions' when the reality is I have went thru and answered every question pertaining to this subject.

Now to answer this question. I see no contradiction. You highlighted the part where the WTS said 'especally toward the earth'. Here is what the WT publication said in detail: It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, "the King of the heavens," especially with respect to the earth. Before Jerusalem’s destruction by the Babylonians, the kingdom centered in that city with David and his heirs sitting on "Jehovah’s throne" represented God’s sovereignty with reference to the earth. (1 Chronicles 29:23) God himself had such sovereignty chopped down and banded in 607 B.C.E. when he used Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem. Exercise of divine sovereignty toward the earth by a kingdom in the line of David was restrained for seven times. How long were these seven times? When did they begin, and what marked their end?

I said:thirdwitness: Yes, God's everlasting rulership toward the earth and his choosing of whomever he sees fit to place in the position of rulership is the centralized theme of Daniel 4.
and I said: The tree pictures Neb and in the greater fulfillment pictures Jehovah's rulership toward the earth as expressed thru his chosen representatives.

So do I agree with the statement in the Daniel book? Yes

And I think you are splitting hairs. Does this somehow disprove that the 7 times were 2520 years?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

ackack, your argument really doesn't matter. There was a war going on in heaven and one going on down on the earth. I do not know exactly how long the war in heaven lasted and the exact date that Satan was finally cast out. I don't know exactly what was going thru Satan's mind and if he anticipated that Jesus was about to toss him out so he started something on earth. All we know is the Gentile times came to an end in October, 1914 and Jesus as the newly empowered king of God's kingdom began to cast him out at that time. Ever since then the world has steadily gotten worse. Woe for the earth. Your argument is really pointless.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

More questions:

Outlaw: 3rd Witness,you don`t like the posters to use secular sources of information.Yet you insist on using your sources,information from the WBTS publications..You openly admit you could`nt put an arguement together without them..Your not looking for a fair and honest debate.

I write using the Bible. I am not copying and pasting WT publications unless noted. The reason that I admit I could not write anything without the WT publications is because it is the WT publications that helped me to understand the Bible. I think that is true of most of you also. Whether you will admit it or not remains to be seen. How many consult the Insight book when they want to know about a certain person in the Bible? Raise your hand. Probably all of you. Why?

Danny: thirdwitness what say you? Put aside the chronology for one post and refute the Millerite origins of the Watchtower

I will let Russell answer for himself: “We found that for centuries various sects and parties had split up the Bible doctrines amongst them, blending them with more or less of human speculation and error . . . We found the important doctrine of justification by faith and not by works had been clearly enunciated by Luther and more recently by many Christians; that divine justice and power and wisdom were carefully guarded tho not clearly discerned by Presbyterians; that Methodists appreciated and extolled the love and sympathy of God; that Adventists held the precious doctrine of the Lord’s return; that Baptists amongst other points held the doctrine of baptism symbolically correctly, even tho they had lost sight of the real baptism; that some Universalists had long held vaguely some thoughts respecting ‘restitution.’ And so, nearly all denominations gave evidence that their founders had been feeling after truth: but quite evidently the great Adversary had fought against them and had wrongly divided the Word of God which he could not wholly destroy.”

“Our work . . . has been to bring together these long scattered fragments of truth and present them to the Lord’s people—not as new, not as our own, but as the Lord’s. . . . We must disclaim any credit even for the finding and rearrangement of the jewels of truth.” “The work in which the Lord has been pleased to use our humble talents has been less a work of origination than of reconstruction, adjustment, harmonization.”

steve: 24 "...Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes"Daniel says "the kingdoms of men" NOT "ruler of HIS kingdom".Stop twisting scripture!

This looks like a You say tomato and I..... The ruler of His (God's) Kingdom is certainly the ruler over the 'kingdoms of men', all of the kingdoms of men since God's kingdom will crush the rest as Dan 2:44 says. hillarystep: Does you understand the preterist arguments of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, the very ones on which you are seeking to educate us all? How would you refute their arguments?

You'll have to be more specific. I know very little about preterists.

fjthoth: If it didn't "belong" to the apostles 'to know when Jesus would begin to rule as king in God's Kingdom,' why does it "belong" to the Watchtower Society?

Because Daniel 12:4 tells us “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”

steve: thirdwitness, I would appreciate a response to my explanation of Daniel 4.Look at my posts. I am only using the bible. Not extra-interpretation.Up for the challenge?

Sorry. Mustve missed it. But I believe I've about covered every question asked. Yours must have been the same as someone elses. But repeat it if I didn't answer it.

jayhawk: Does the Book of Daniel say in any part of it that its prophecies are written for the Mesiah? I am asking, because I don't know.

All of the prophecies in Daniel are about the Messiah.

Dan 2:44, "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;"

Dan 7:27 "And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them."

Dan 8:25: "And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken."

Dan 12:1 "And during that time Mi´cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people."

Even Daniel 5 is about Cyrus, Jesus being the greater Cyrus, called God's anointed one in Isa 45:1.

Dan 4:17 "By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind."

cabasilas: Question for thirdwitness: Has the Watchtower Society ever used these other verses to as proof like you are doing? They use words like "it would be fitting" or "it is reasonable," etc. Can you cite where the Society uses these verses?

I'm not sure if they exactly use any and/or all the arguments I have presented or just allude to the scriptures I presented. You can look it up on the WT library. The WT is not my god. Many of you quote from the WT more than I do. Maybe thats why many of you have left the truth. Because the WT was your God. Some seem to have replaced AlanF or Carl Jonnson for the WT.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

I would like to address AlanF's long post on page 8.

He says: Luke 21:24 states (NWT) that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." The key phrase in thirdwitless' argument is "will be". In the Greek, this is in the future indicative tense (Gr. estai), and that tense generally signifies something that has yet to occur. However, in certain cases it can refer to an indefinite future time period that may or may not include the present. Context is the only thing that can determine what the writer had in mind. Thus, the passage might be rendered more precisely in two ways:

Jerusalem will at some future time begin to be trampled on by the nations . . .
Jerusalem will continue to be trampled on by the nations . . .

The question is: which one is right? Since grammar is of no help, let's look at the context. Notice what I have highlighted in red. He has admitted and he is correct that it could mean 'will continue to be trampled'. He says we should examine the context. I agree. The context is this: Jesus is answering the question about when his presence will take place and what will be the sign. He then begans to tell how literally Jerusalem will be destroyed. Is this the trampling? If so when did it end. Did it end when the Roman army finished trouncing Jerusalem and led off the captives? Hardly. The trampling continued after that time. The destruction of Jerusalem was not the trampling. Jerusalem was already being trampled on by the Romans before its destruction. They were under Roman authority before 70CE. And so when Jesus said Jerusalem 'will be' trampled until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled he was letting the disciples know that the destruction of Jerusalem would not bring an end to the trampling like they were thinking. It would continue until the appointed times of the nations were fulfilled. God's Kingdom would not be set up in Jerusalem at that time when Jerusalem was being destroyed by the Roman Army. The trampling would continue. It is really not that difficult to comprehend. The context definitely allows for the meaning that AlanF admits is possible. Jerusalem will continue to be trampled on by the nations . . .until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. That is when the trampling would end. That is when his presence would begin. He would assume his position as God's king in the heavenly Jerusalem. And that is after all what they were asking about: When his presence and the end would come.

AlanF also says: Huge problem here: After his resurrection, Jesus stated that "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18) If we take the Bible at its word, then the word "all" really means all. Therefore there was no authority left for God to give at some future time. This passage alone kills off the Society's 1914 doctrine, which requires that God granted further authority to Jesus in 1914 -- contradicting Matthew 28:18.

Only a huge problem for persons like AlanF who do not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. But notice Revelation 12 which was to occur in the Lord's day after Jesus statement at Matt 28:18. Notice verse 15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” Chirst was to receive authority in a special way in the future. But is this really so? After Satan is cast out of heaven Revelation 12:10 tells us: And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! So even though Jesus was given authority after his ressurection he did not exercise all his authority until the proper time appointed by his Father. He waited until he received his kingship over God's Messianic Kingdom. And even still he has not exercise all his authority because he has not destroyed all the other kingdoms. (Daniel 2:44) For further proof of this lets look at an illustration that Jesus gave: Luke 19:

11 While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly. 12 Therefore he said: “A certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return. 13 Calling ten slaves of his he gave them ten mi´nas and told them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent out a body of ambassadors after him, to say, ‘We do not want this [man] to become king over us.’

15 “Eventually when he got back after having secured the kingly power, he commanded to be called to him these slaves to whom he had given the silver money, in order to ascertain what they had gained by business activity.

Well of course you know the story. He rewarded those who had obeyed his commands. But as for the enemies of his look what happened.

27 Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them BRING here and slaughter them before me.’”

This proves: Jesus would not secure kingly power until sometime after his accension to heaven. And so his words were not just for his disciples living then but also for people living in the last days of this system of things.

I like this comment by AlanF revealing his true motives: Translation: A lot of what Jesus predicted for the 1st century did not happen, so we must find ways to extend the failed prophecies at least as far as our day. LOL!

Translation: AlanF is playing you all for a bunch of fools as he does not even believe what the Bible says at all. Why do you think he would do anything other than try to mislead you away from the Bible truths that JWs have shown you from the Bible? AlanF tries to argue the Bible when he himself does not even believe it is true. This is why his arguments fall flat. Ask yourself these questions: Do you believe that Jehovah God would give Bible understanding to one who does not even believe that the Bible is His word? Does Jehovah God expect you to learn Bible truths from one who teaches that His Bible prophecies have failed?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

I see that the arguments against the 7 times being 2520 years has been reduced to cartoons. This is apropos.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

The June, 1914/ Oct 1914 is really not that difficult to explain. It was at the end of June that the archduke was assassinated. That is when history declares that WW I began. But so what? Just because someone was assassinated then you think that the Devil must've already been cast down by then. By Oct, 1914 WW I was just getting underway. Turkey did not even side with Germany until Oct, 1914. Sides were still being drawn. Really this is a poor attempt to discredit JWs.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Where... does... it... say... to... use... the... day... for... a... year... rule?

I will ask you the same thing about the 70 weeks. You must use logic and reason. You must use the example of the 70 weeks. I have answered this already in detail. Are you one who wants it on a silver platter?

Wasn't this just a prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar?

No, this I clearly showed to over and over again. Must I repeat Ezek 17, 19, 21 , Isa 6 etc and even what is said in Daniel 4. There connection is there if you want to look at it without preconceived ideas against JWs.

How did this become a prophecy about the Mesiah?

All of Daniel's prophecies are about the Messiah. Do you think that it just so happens that all oh except the tree dream is about the Messiah? The theme of Daniel 4 as well as the whole book of Daniel tells us just what the whole account is about. The bigger picture. The kingdom of God. The chosen ruler. The lowliest one of mankind.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Auldsoul: But your narrative asserts that Jehovah's rulership is NOT eternal, that it skips a gap of 2,520 years, and that is directly contrary to the BIble.

Are you suggesting that Jehovah stands for both himself and Neb in the dream? Either way, your second interpretation would require that Jehovah's rulership is NOT everlasting toward the earth, if it were true.

You are wrong on both assertions. Jehovah's rulership of course never ends. But it was for 7 times that Jehovah would not have a king exercising his rulership on the earth in sitting on God's throne as His representative. I have never said that Neb stood for Jehovah. The tree pictures Neb and in the greater fulfillment pictures Jehovah's rulership toward the earth as expressed thru his chosen representatives. The tree does not picture Jehovah himself or his everlasting rulership as sovereign of the universe. Nor does Neb picture Jehovah.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Auldsoul I think I pretty much debunked your 70 weeks is really translated 70 weeks of years and a day for a year is not needed but here is a little more debunking.

Genesis 29:27 "Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also for the service which you shall serve with me for another (Shabuwa`)seven years (Shaneh)." Shaneh is the word for 'years'.

If shabuwa means seven years then why was it necessary for the writer to also use the word 'shaneh' which is translated years? It should have just read 'for another shabuwa' and thats it, if shabuwa means 1 week of years or 7 years. This is further proof that the 70 shabuwa or weeks of Daniel 9 must apply the day for a year if it is to be interpreted properly.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Notice in one of my last few posts I discuss the 70 weeks. This is part of the proof that a day for a year should be applied. Also Here is what I had previously written about this:

Should We Apply the Day for a Year Rule?

If a day for a year is not applied then that means that the 7 times lasted from 607 to 600. Did a ruler of God's Kingdom come forth then? Logical reasoning will lead a person to believe that the day for a year rule must apply otherwise the prophecy is meaningless. We have as an example the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel chapter 9. The day for a year rule must apply in Daniel chapter 9 or the prophecy is meaningless and is of no value.

As we have already shown Daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years. Therefore it must mean more than 7 years. Otherwise he would have said 7 years not 7 times. Do you think that Jehovah was trying to trick us by using the terminology of 7 times and then explaining the length of 3.5 times in Revelation only to merely mean that the 7 times that pass over are 7 years and that is all? AT the same time he supplied the rule ' a day for a year ' when Ezekiel laid on his side for so many days (which by the way pointed to the destruction of Jerusalem in 607). He also supplied the prophecy of the 70 weeks which also needs the rule of 'a day for a year' for it to have value. The 70 weeks from 455 brings us to 453.5. Nothing happened. So surely it must be a day for a year.

With that said, is there any other reason to apply the day for a year rule to the dream? For a moment lets reason why God wanted us to know exactly how long 3 1/2 times are. In one place he calls it 42 months, in another place he calls it 1260 days. If it only meant 42 regular months then why be so specific about it. What difference does a few days here or there make? Why not just 3½ years or 42 lunar or solar months? The only time a few days does make a big difference is when you are dealing with a prophecy that has a day for a year rule applied. In this case every day makes a big difference. When you combine this with the fact that every prophecy of Daniel either concludes with Jesus arriving in God's Kingdom or with the arrival of the Messiah who is the King of God's Kingdom, then you have a pretty strong reason to apply the day for a year rule. End of quote.

Let me explain the last paragraph a little bit further. Revelation tells us about 3.5 times. And it tells us that this is 42 months. Now 42 months could be construed as being 1260 days because using 30 day lunar months 42 X 30 = 1260. But if we were calculating 42 months on a solar calendar then we would have more than 1260 days. 3.5 X 365 = 1277.5. Now if we use a day for a year on that figure we would have 1277.5 years. 7 times would then equal 2555 years. But amazingly we did not have to do such figuring. Because Revelation actually comes right out and tells us that the 3.5 times, the 42 months, is equivalent to 1260 days. So there it is. There is no question. 3.5 times does not equal 1277.5 days. It equals 1260 days. Therefore 7 times = 2520 days. It is right there in the Bible for those who want to see it. Applying a day for a year, just like it was intended on the 70 weeks prophecy, there it is 2520 years = the 7 times of Daniel. It is important that Revelation was precise in saying that 3.5 times was 1260 days since 1 day was to equal 1 year in calculating the 7 times thus a few days would have made a big difference in calculating when the rightful ruler would arrive.

I realize that this is not good enough for some. They do not want to dig deep into the Bible. They wanted Daniel to come right out and say, "7 times = 2520 years and God would have no king exercising rulership toward the earth from 607 to 1914." They do not want to have to look at other scriptures such as Revelation, Ezekiel 17, 19, 21, Isaiah 6 and make the obvious connections that were put in their by Jehovah so that we could make the connections. That is just tooooo complicated and difficult. They want it laid in their lap on a silver platter. Well as the Bible says that is not the way it works. If you want the knowledge of God you have to dig thru his word to find it. But it is there.