Yep just like you disprove the 40 year desolation of Egypt didn't happen. Let me guess. Your answer will have something to do with the Bible being inaccurate, its prophecies failed, or it contradicts itself.
thirdwitness
JoinedPosts by thirdwitness
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
AlanF said: I challenged you on this claim about "presence". Where is your response?
Again, "presence" is a wrong translation of parousia in Matthew 24:3. No modern scholars agree with the Watchtower Society on this translation. Furthermore, the Society's 1997 exposition on it is self-contradictory and misrepresents source references.
I did not answer because I figured you being the all wise all knowing Guru that you are already knew what parousia meant. I am a little shocked at you here saying that no modern scholars agree with the WTS translation. A quick google proves that to be an inaccurate statement. Not that it matters because just because the majority might believe something doesn't make it truth. For example, the Trinity.
Anyway notice just two quick simple sources:
wikipedia: The term Parousia, Greek for "appearance and subsequent presence with" (in the ancient world referring to official visits by royalty) is also used to describe this event.
Merriam-Webster Online DictionaryParousiaOne entry found for Parousia.
Main Entry: Par·ou·sia
Pronunciation: "pär-ü-'sE-&, p&-'rü-zE-&
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek, literally, presence, from paront-, parOn, present participle of pareinai to be present, from para- + einai to beAlso Young's Literal translation of the Bible reads: Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
OOOps there's one Bible scholar that must agree with the new world translation.
Anyway, it doesn't disprove that 7 times were 2520 years beginning from the desolation of Jerusalem.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
Are we thru with the seven times being 2520 years or are there new points to be brought up?
Not interested in reteaching AlanF why Genesis days are not literally 24 hours. You should know this already if you were ever a JW. It is covered in WT publications numerous times. Not interested in discussing preterists. There viewpoint has been debunked in one sentence. We already covered the 40 year desolation of Egypt. Remember thats the one where some said I lied about their arguments and I then quoted them word for word clearly establishing what their arguments were and that I did not lie.
I do have one more point that AlanF brought up about parousia or presence.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
Hillarystep, Sorry not interested in such a debate that is off topic.
Jayhawk, all those questions you ask have been thoroughly answered. Reread the thread and you will find them. Do you just want me to keep repeating the same things over and over again?
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
Jayhawk: Now, can I assume you are unable to answer? Does this mean the Prophecies in Daniel do not apply to the Messiah?
You are joking right. I guess it is not good enough for you to show you that every single prophecy of Daniel concludes with God's Kingdom or the Messiah's appearance. You want a statement from Daniel at the beginning or end of the book saying: Attention readers: These writings that I have just penned are all about the Messiah and God's Kingdom in case you didn't notice.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
I ( ThirdWitness ) believe that it is impossible for all the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation to have been fulfilled by the second fall of Jerusalem in 70CE because__________________________________
I did not answer this because it is too simple. I guess I could bring forth the kindergarden class to answer it. It is off topic and I have no interest as I have said in reteaching the basic doctrines of the bible to those who should already know them but have returned to the vomituous teachings of Christendom or the endless philosophies of men.
But just to fill in your blank since it can be done so quickly:
I ( ThirdWitness ) believe that it is impossible for all the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation to have been fulfilled by the second fall of Jerusalem in 70CE because the man of lawlessness was not yet fully revealed, Jesus had not yet secured kingly power and rewarded the faithful, destroying the unfaithful, there was not a Great Tribulation greater than all tribulations before it, Revelation was written after 70 CE(please save your breath about the theory of how it was written before 70 CE), and so much more I could say. But I think this is enough.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
TD, the 'will be' phrase has been answered. Even AlanF had to agree that it could mean 'will continue to be'. And the text supports that conclusion.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
Ok, well , this is going off in another direction. If there is nothing new to bring up then I will sit back and wait. I believe all questions have been answered. Many of them more than once.
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
Frank said: This question indicates great ignorance concerning how the "Insight" volumes were compiled. I was there. There would be no "Insight" volumes if there had not been the book "Aid to Bible Understanding." That book in turn was put together from informtion obtained from hundreds of sources outside the Watchtower Society. The Watchtower Society raided Christendom's pantry and then gave credit to itself for cooking up a delicious meal of spiritual food.
I served 40 years at Bethel and often had access to the libraries of those who work in the Writing Department. The vast majority of publications in those libraries were not produced by the Watchtower Society but by members of Christendom's churches. The Watchtower condemns Christendom's churches but robs constantly from Christendom's sources without giving credit where credit is due.
Where is this amazing book written by Christendom that outdoes the insight book?
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1380
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness inthink about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.
why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?
as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.
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thirdwitness
Repy to Steve. All you have said has been answered. The very first post I made on this thread when I began it answers everything you said. But I will indulge you again. Steve's words in italics.
Once again we can see how a Jehovahs Witness will side with what he reads in the Governing Body's literature over what he reads in the bible. We are not talking about the vision of the statue, We are talking about the vision of the tree. In the vision of the statue Daniel specifically tells us which part of the statue is king Neb, and when the events are to occur, 2:45: "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."
What you wrote here has no bearing on the tree dream. The Daniel 4 prophecy is also in the future. Even the fulfillment upon Neb.
In the vision of the tree, Daniel specificlly tells what the tree represents,
22 you, O king, are that tree!..",24 "This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven..."And of course Neb was the tree in the initial fulfillment. But the Bible shows that the meaning went a lot deeper than Neb. Just as every prophecy in Daniel was about God's Kingdom and the Messiah, so is this one.
From the very outset of Daniel chapter 4 the theme is set. In verse 3 we read of Jehovah, "How grand his signs are, and how mighty his wonders are! His kingdom is a kingdom to time indefinite, and his rulership is for generation after generation." Continuing the theme the Bible explains the reason for the dream in simple terms at Dan 4:17, "to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.” God's everlasting rulership toward the earth and his choosing of whomever he sees fit to place in the position of rulership is the centralized theme of Daniel 4.
As has been said before, the Bible interprets itself and so we do not have to guess about the meaning of Daniel chapter 4 at all. Incredibly, similar words of Daniel 4:17 are used concerning the kingship of Zedekiah. Ezekiel 21:25-27 reads concerning Zedekiah: "As for you, O deadly wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, whose day has come in the time of the error of the end, this is what the Lord Jehovah has said, Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no ones until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him."
But there is even more evidence in Ezekiel 21 for connecting the kings of Judah including the last king Zedekiah with the tree in Neb's dream. In reading the entire chapter of Ezekiel 21 did you notice that Jehovah has a sword that he will unsheath upon Judah because of their rebelliousness. It is concerning that sword that the question is asked in verse 10, “Is it (the executional sword) rejecting the scepter (rulership) of my own son (Israel), as [it does] every tree?" 12 “‘Cry out and howl, O son of man, for it itself has come to be against my people; it (Jehovah's sword) is against all the chieftains of Israel." Amazing! Exactly paralleling Neb's tree dream, Jehovah's sword will even cut down the tree or scepter or rulership of Israel.
The cutting down of the tree or rulership of Israel is of great significance because those kings of Israel represented Jehovah's rulership in the earth.
1 Chronicles 29:23 tells us, "And Sol´o·mon began to sit upon Jehovah’s throne as king in place of David his father" From this we can see that the kings of Israel did indeed represent Jehovah's rulership on earth.
So ask yourself this: Out of 'every tree' or scepter or rulership that Jehovah's sword would cut down by means of Babylon which tree would be unbanded and restored in the future, receiving kingship from Jehovah himself as he saw fit? Which one would provide the 'lowliest' twig that would shoot forth and become a majestic cedar in Jehovah's Holy Mountain put on high like no other? It could only be the tree picturing Jehovah's rulership as represented by the kings of Judah who were said to 'sit upon Jehovah's throne'. It could only be that Judean tree which for 7 times would remain banded but thereafter would bring forth God's chosen ruler of all the earth.
This tree being cut down by Jehovah's sword is the same tree cut down by the watcher. And the ending is the same. The low one is put on high.
And Daniel tells us for how long
25".. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes.No argument here. And fortunately in Revelation we are told exactly to a tee just how long 7 times are. I wonder why? Hmmmm. The bible really does interpret itself, doesn't it?
who's kingdom it refers to and the reason why
26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules.Of course, in the initial minor fulfillment. But even in the initial fulfillment Neb had to acknowledge that Jehovah's kingdom is to time indefinite (Neb's kingdom was not forever) and he gives it to whoever he wants. And who is it that Jehovah wanted to give His everlasting kingdom to? Was it Neb? Of course it wasn't. It was Jesus Christ.
When it was fullfilled
8 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 33 "Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled..."Yes, IN the initial fulfillment. In examining this account and the accounts in Ezek 17, 19, 21, Isa 6, Rev 12, the other prophecies in Daniel and many other scriptures, we can easily see that there was a bigger picture that you are refusing to see. Funny how all the prophecies of Daniel pointed to God's Kingdom ruling in the final part of the days or pointed to the Messiah's earthly coming but oh not Daniel 4. Its just some prophecy about Neb going mad for 7 times and thats it. To believe that you would have to be wearing blinders.
The vision of the tree in Daniel 4 is a simple demonstration of how Jehovahs Witnesses change what is written in the bible. Daniel says one thing, the Governing Body says something else.
Who should the Jehovahs Witness side with???I chose to side with the evidence clearly found in God's word which JWs present. I believe that Jehovah provide all these other scriptures to show us just what the tree dream meant. You want it on a silver platter as I said earlier but thats not the way it happens. You have to dig and search the Bible. In doing so it is crystal clear just what the tree dream meant in the greater fulfillment. Your failure to acknowledge that does not change it. Your ignoring of all the other scriptures connecting the tree to God's rulership and thus explaining the tree dream for us does not change anything.
