Posts by thirdwitness

85

Has anyone read this article..

by earthtone in

it broke my heart to read about someone having to paying court fee's after wining a sexual abuse case against the wtbts.

she ended up winning 5,000 dollars but has to pay 220000 dollars in court feee to wtbts and for her lawyer.

crazy!.

thirdwitness

Is the victim told not to go to the police?The policy of JWs states: In addition to making a report to the branch office, the elders may be required by law to report evenuncorroborated or unsubstantiated allegations to the authorities. If so, we expect the elders to comply. Additionally, the victim may wish to report the matter to the authorities, and it is his or her absolute right to do so.
You have no doubt seen the apostates false claims that a person can be disfellowshipped for going to the authorities with child abuse allegations. Clearly, this is not the case at all. Some opposers claim that if there are not two witnesses to the molesting then the WT policy is that it should not be reported to the authorities. But did you notice the phrase above: 'even uncorroborated or unsubstantiated allegations'. Yes, it is anyone's absolute right to report even uncorroborated or unsubstantiated allegations to the authorities, even if there are not two witnesses.

In fact, a previous letter to the elders said "all in the Christian congregation would want to consider their personal and moral responsibility to alert the appropriate authorities in cases where there has been committed or there exists a risk that there might be committed a serious criminal offence of this type..."

85

Has anyone read this article..

by earthtone in

it broke my heart to read about someone having to paying court fee's after wining a sexual abuse case against the wtbts.

she ended up winning 5,000 dollars but has to pay 220000 dollars in court feee to wtbts and for her lawyer.

crazy!.

thirdwitness

But what WAS the policy when the incident happened?

You tell me. Here's what the judge said: The defendants did not instruct the plaintiff not to get medical help. She chose not to seek professional help herself against the advice of the elders and Mr. Mott-Trille. The defendants did not instruct the plaintiff that her father's abuse should not be reported. On the contrary, the defendants directed Mr. Palmer (the abuser) to report himself to the C.A.S. and then followed up directly to ensure he had done so.

85

Has anyone read this article..

by earthtone in

it broke my heart to read about someone having to paying court fee's after wining a sexual abuse case against the wtbts.

she ended up winning 5,000 dollars but has to pay 220000 dollars in court feee to wtbts and for her lawyer.

crazy!.

thirdwitness

"There was, however, psychological harm to the plaintiff as a result of the December 29, 1989 meeting. She was in a very vulnerable state at the time as she had just begun to deal with the effects of her father?s abuse. I accept the evidence of the various experts, including Dr. Awad, that this confrontation made things worse for the plaintiff."

Hey 3rd, just out of curiosity, what happened? I'm not arguing your post, I am just curious. Essentially what happened is that one elder did not follow the WT policy. He should have never brought her before her father. The judge ruled that basically because the WT policy was not followed correctly that Vicki Boer was traumatized 5000 dollars worth of trauma. Just goes to show how good the WT policy is because if the WT policy would have been followed to the letter she would not have even been awarded the 5000. But the 5000 dollars had nothing to do with JWs promoting child abuse in the congregations or allowing child abuse or harboring child abusers. And as it turned out it was a 137,000 dollar victory for JWs. You can sue me all day and claim victory all you like if I recieve that kind of money for 'losing'.

85

Has anyone read this article..

by earthtone in

it broke my heart to read about someone having to paying court fee's after wining a sexual abuse case against the wtbts.

she ended up winning 5,000 dollars but has to pay 220000 dollars in court feee to wtbts and for her lawyer.

crazy!.

thirdwitness

Did you take note of the Judge's ruling? Contrary to what some have said above JWs do not tell anyone they should not go to a therapists nor do they tell they not to go to the police. The judge ruled and said: The defendants did not instruct the plaintiff not to get medical help. She chose not to seek professional help herself against the advice of the elders and Mr. Mott-Trille. The defendants did not instruct the plaintiff that her father's abuse should not be reported. On the contrary, the defendants directed Mr. Palmer (the abuser) to report himself to the C.A.S. and then followed up directly to ensure he had done so.

Why must people resort to lies to try to discredit JWs? The policy of JWs is never tell anyone they cannot go to the police and never discourage them from going to the police.

85

Has anyone read this article..

by earthtone in

it broke my heart to read about someone having to paying court fee's after wining a sexual abuse case against the wtbts.

she ended up winning 5,000 dollars but has to pay 220000 dollars in court feee to wtbts and for her lawyer.

crazy!.

thirdwitness

In Canada, Vicki Boer brought a civil lawsuit against the elders of her former congregation and the WTBTS asking for $700,000 dollars concerning her child abuse at the hands of her father who was one of Jehovah's Witnesses claiming they were negligent, breached their duty, advised her against contacting the authorities, and against seeking professional help. What did the court find?

Presiding Judge Anne Molloy ruled that the WTS and elders were not at fault and did not contribute to or promote in any way the child abuse that took place. The court said, "There is no foundation on the facts to support an award for punitive damages. Most of the allegations against the defendants have not been established on the facts. The defendants who interacted with the plaintiff did not bear ill will toward her. They accepted the veracity of her account, were sympathetic to her situation and meant her no harm. The claim for punitive damages is dismissed."

As respects her findings as to whether the elders advised Boer not to tell the authorities and not to seek professional help the judge stated very clearly her findings:

The defendants did not instruct the plaintiff not to get medical help. She chose not to seek professional help herself against the advice of the elders and Mr. Mott-Trille. The defendants did not instruct the plaintiff that her father?s abuse should not be reported. On the contrary, the defendants directed Mr. Palmer (the abuser) to report himself to the C.A.S. and then followed up directly to ensure he had done so.

Judge Molloy also examined similar cases from the United States and candidly stated in her ruling: I conclude that had Ms. Boer?s action been brought in the United States, it would likely be subject to summary dismissal based on these cases.
However, despite this, the court did award her $5,000 for the trauma caused her in confronting her father at a investigative meeting stating, "There was, however, psychological harm to the plaintiff as a result of the December 29, 1989 meeting. She was in a very vulnerable state at the time as she had just begun to deal with the effects of her father?s abuse. I accept the evidence of the various experts, including Dr. Awad, that this confrontation made things worse for the plaintiff."

But the flip side of the ruling is that the same court ordered Vicki Boer to pay the WTS $142,000 dollars in legal fees. Thus netting the WTS a sum total of $137,000 dollars as a result of the civil suit brought against them. It seems the Canadian courts do not take lightly cases based on "frivolous charges" and forcing someone to defend themselves "against false or unprovable charges."
How much do you suppose that the Boer's spiritual counselor, Bill Bowen and his Silent Lambs organization, was willing to contribute to help the Boer's pay their own legal fees of over $90,000 that were incurred as well as the $137,000 that they were ordered to pay to the WTS? Apparently whatever they contributed, if anything, was not nearly enough because Scott Boer commmented, "We've pretty much exhausted our finances pursuing the case this far, and now we're to the point where we simply couldn't afford an appeal. We going to simply have to accept the judgment and if we have to declare bankruptcy for a victory, then we have to declare bankruptcy." It seems that Silent Lambs by encouraging such lawsuits are contributing to further financial victimizing of the already abused victims. We have to wonder if it is concern for the abused victims that motivates Bowen's organization or their obvious agenda to discredit the WTS that motivates and consumes them.

Generously, showing no ill will or lust for revenge (in contrast to the picture that apostates try to paint of a greedy, money-loving corporation) the WTS agreed to call it even and did not insist that Vicki Boer pay the $137,000 awarded to them by the court. It seems that in the end the WTS actually helped out the Boer's financially more than the Silent Lambs organization.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

It is a sad thing that Brant Jones spent 45 years serving Jehovah and thru it all away because he took the word of apostates over the word of his brothers. The WTS did provide the information for you. They told you that they did not sign anything that compromised their principles and that has proven to be the truth when examining the application and accreditation forms but you would not accept the explanation of the brothers and insisted that they were lying wrongdoers. What do you expect?

It is sad that you believe that you wasted 45 years of your life serving Jehovah with Jehovah's people. The truth of the matter is that those are the only years you didn't waste.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Outlaws last few posts directed at me written in blue: 3rd Witness..AlanF is right,you are both gross and disgusting..WBTS did exactly what they were told to do,by the United Nations.That,makes you a liar too..I see no insult..You continue to defend the indefenceable..Without a doubt,you are one of the most dishonest posters this board has ever seen.....AlanF beat the crap out of you in your last debate with him..AlanF is gonna beat you up so bad on this thread,your Grandma`s gonna have a black eye..LOL!!...OUTLAW 3rd Witness it is your comments that are irrevelant..WBTS should have had nothing to do with the United Nations..Your going to get your dishonest ass beat up on this thread Troll..WBTS has no excuse,you have no defence..Your both screwed..LOL!!...OUTLAW 3rd Witness..You are selectivly stupid..That makes you dishonest..JW`s are to have nothing to do with the United Nations..Nothing!!..Do you know who made those rules Moron?..The WBTS..Imbecile!!...OUTLAW Jayhawk1..The picture you posted,of the whore riding the wild beast..The first time I saw that picture I couldn`t read yet,I was preschool.It was in the "Paradise Lost"book.My mom explained to me what the picture meant..She thought the Paradise book was a good childrens book..LOL!!.............................................3rd Witness..Have a look at that picture.What do you see?..A Whore riding the Wild Beast..Thats what JW children have been taught from childhood.Thats what I was taught..There is no excuse,the WBTS should have had nothing to do with the United Nations..I`m reading your posts,you still think you can defend the indefenceable..Do you have any idea how stupid you look to the rest of us?...OUTLAW Which I finally responded with these 2 lines.

Outlaw: Do you have any idea how stupid you look to the rest of us?...

Hey, Noah, Do you have any idea how stupid you look to the rest of us?...

Hey Christian fleeing to the mountains in 70 CE, Do you have any idea how stupid you look to the rest of us?...

3rd Witness..Wrong again..WBTS teachs any involment with the United Nations is wrong..Any involvement with the Untited Nations makes that religion a Whore..Thats really hard for you to understand eh?..Have you ever met a Jehovah`s Witness?..You certainly don`t know what they`ve been taught about having any association with the United Nations..You don`t know what your talking about,and your too dumb to learn..What are you doing here?..Can you play Patty Cake without drooling on yourself?..LOL!!...OUTLAW 3rd Witness..Congratulations!!..That was absolutly the stupidest reply I have ever recieved on this board..Really!..Not even Fred Hall posted anything that stupid..What does Noah,have to do with the WBTS association with the United Nations?.Nothing Moron.What does 70ce Christians fleeing into the mountains,have to do with the WBTS association with the United Nations?.Nothing..Those arn`t even strawmen.Those were the ramblings of an Idiot..What the F**K is wrong with you?..The WBTS should have had nothing to do with the United Nations..Nothing!!..Do you understand what No Association means?..It means NO ASSOCIATION!....You may never win a debate but you will always be recognized as an Idiot..Your not a Winner!..LOL!!...OUTLAW 3RD Witness you destroy your own arguement by opening your mouth..Only an Idiot would have started this thread.I guess you were the man for the job..LOL!!..I will ask you again: What does Noah have to do with,the WBTS association with the the United Nations?..What does the 70CE Christians fleeing into the mountains,have to do with the WBTS association with the United Nations?..We both know the answer,Nothing!..You really are a pathetic debater..And there`s a team of you..LOL!!..It takes you and your team,to be an Idiot?? ..LOL!!...OUTLAW 3rd Witness..Having trouble debating??..What does Noah,70CE Christians,or AlanF have to do with your ability to understand:"The WBTS should have had nothing to do with the United Nations"?..Go ahead pick a topic..Noah,70CE Christians or AlanF and explain what any one of them has to do with,the WBTS association with the United Nations?..Every time you say something stupid you will be called to account for it..You and your team of Idiots put your heads together and try to come up with an intellegent reply...OUTLAW Then he finally directs something approaching civil to me: 3rd Witness..That AlanF,what a great guy eh?..He even showed you how to beat him in this debate..I can hardly wait till you post your evidence straight from WBTS Head Quarters..LOL!!.....WBTS should have had nothing to do with the United Nations.For every true and faithfull Jehovah`s Witness,that really is the point..You know it,we know it,every faithfull Jehovah`s Witness knows it..Once again hillary-step cuts through the crap with wit:"Checkmate"..LOL!!...OUTLAW 3rd Witness..I have repeatedly asked you a question..Then you threw AlanF into the mix and I let you..I added him into my question to you..I realize it`s a hard question to answer,because if you do,you will look dumber than you do now..If thats possible..LOL!!..The question remains the same,are you going to answer it?.....If you trash our Board Mod`s again,I`m going to jump all over you...OUTLAW Me: Outlaw you apparently know nothing about the situation as shown by your posts above. You are a blind follower of AlanF and apostates. All you can do is throw insults. I'm sure that the lurkers can see the childish mentality of apostates such as yourself which is: just throw out childish insults and make false statements, no need to prove anything.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Quandary in italics.

Mary-this is the crux of the matter. Thirdwitness wishes us all to believe that the WTS was naive and was merely duped into thinking that they needed to sign documents in order to have a library card.

Thirdwitness has never claimed that the WTS was duped into signing anything. Thirdwitness claims only what the paper trail of facts show. The WTS did not sign an agreement to support the UN. The WTS did not sign an agreement to even disseminate information. The language of the criteria did indeed change between 1994 and 2001 we know for a fact.

I was always taught to read the fine print before I signed anything. The WTS always likes to sound authoritative, well researched, well informed. Yet they quickly signed documents without looking at all the ramifications first?

False statement. Please show us the agreement that the WTS would have signed. If you can't you make yourself a liar and you join the ranks of AlanF.

In fact, several higher ups signed? No discussion of how this would look? No investigation into the requirements? Just put their name on documents that had the heading of UN at the top?

Please show us this signed agreement. Or even the agreement that the WTS would have signed in 1991.

Obviously, they never thought anyone would find out. They had become bold in thinking that they were so far above the rank and file that they had carte-blanche to do anything they wanted. Who was there to "check their hand?"

What a crock of lies you put forth.

If this was no big issue, if it is great news that the WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with the UN, I ask again, why disfellowship people merely for talking about it? Does thirdwitness answer this? No. So obviously it IS A BIG ISSUE TO THE WTS, ONE THAT THEY ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO PLAY DOWN AND COVER UP!!

Yes, thirdwitness can answer this very easily. The WTS does not df people for merely talking about the NGO/WT/DPI situation. They DF people for slandering the WTS as you just have.

The mere fact that thirdwitness posted a thread with this title shows that in his mind he knows many feel that the WTS is indeed prostituting itself. An organization that does things above board does not draw its actions into question nor need defenders.

The mere fact that you have to put forth lies to make your case proves that you know that the WTS did not committ spiritual adultery. I am merely pointing out those lies to others who might be reading and believing such falsehoods. You shouldn't have to resort to lies to prove wrongdoing.

597

Great news. The WTS did not commit spiritual prostitution with UN.

by thirdwitness in

http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

thirdwitness

Association or Registration

Some opposers of JWs are quick to point out that the WTS uses the word registration when referring to their association with the DPI as an NGO . They point to these phrases in the letters that the WTS wrote explaining the situation:

We had been using the library for many-years prior to 1991, but in that year it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access.?

?Registration papers filed with the United Nations that we have on file contain no statements that conflict with our Christian beliefs.?

Then they point out that it was not a registration that took place but rather that the WTS applied for association with DPI . Their claim is that the WTS is hiding and attempting to mischaracterize it as a registration not an association. As one opposer stated, "They did not register, there is no such thing as a registrant/registrar relationship between NGOs and the UN / DPI .... The Society outrightly lies when they mischaracterize the nature of the relationship as one of registrant to registrar."

But does this argument hold any merit? Or are the opposers trying to split hairs over the meaning of words?
Exactly what did the WTS really say? Does the WTS attempt to mislead with their letters by mischaracterizing the nature of the relationship as opposers contend?

Please take note of two quotes from letters sent out by the WTS :

Quote #1: ?Moreover, NGOs are informed by the United Nations that "association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status."

Reasoning on the matter: If the WT was claiming that they were never associated with the DPI why would they quote information form the UN showing that "association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations?

Quote # 2: ?After learning of the situation, our membership as NGO was withdrawn and the ID card of the writer was returned.?

In this quote from one of their letters they speak of their membership being withdrawn. There is no mischaracterization here at all. But could the WTS have just as accurately used the phrase "our registration as NGO was withdrawn" as they did in some letters?

From the UN .org site comes this. http://www.un.org/reform/pdfs/hlp9.htm

UN SYSTEM AND CIVIL SOCIETY -

AN INVENTORY AND ANALYSIS OF PRACTICES

May 2003

Under the heading: Accreditation with ECOSOC :

Comes this quote about NGO association:

"It does, however, provide a number of practical benefits, such as obtaining passes to enter UN grounds, attend meetings and interact with governments or secretariat staff (as does being on DPI Register)."

And under the heading: Accreditation with the Department for Public Information

Comes this quote: "Currently about 1400 NGOs , mostly Northern, are accredited with DPI ...................... The DPI NGO Section has recently been weeding out the inactive ones from its register..."

Opposers of JWs have been trying to make such a big deal about the difference in the WT 's use of the word registration as opposed to association but apparently, according to this UN document, it is not as big of deal as they would lead us to believe. Apparently it can correctly be stated that the WTS registered as an NGO associated with the DPI . Then as they said, they later withdrew their membership or their registration.