Posts by thirdwitness

3

607: When did the 70 years of serving Babylon start.

by thirdwitness in

.

[edited: 'cut & paste" article has been removed]

[Edited: 'Cut & paste" article has been removed]

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

It is absurd to say that Daniel 2 came before Daniel 1. It is illogical and unreasonable that Daniel was already made district ruler and chief prefect of all the wise men in the middle of his training. In fact, he would not have been looked for to be executed if he was still in training because he was not yet one of the wise men in the king's service. He was learning the ways and language of the Chaldeans.

Your explanation is built upon sand and is irrational and the only reason you reach this conclusion is because you cannot admit JWs just may be right about it. If the situation was reverse and putting Daniel 1 before Daniel 2 disproved 607 there is no way that you would make the argument you are making. The same with the 40 year desolation of Egypt, the 70 year desolation of Judah, the 70 years upon Tyre. You have an opinion and you disregard what the Bible says to hold to that opinion. JWs on the other hand have reached the 607 date because it is supported by the logical reading of the scriptures.

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

thirdwitness

In 620 B.C.E. [Nebuchadnezzar] compelled Jehoiakim to pay tribute, but after about three years Jehoiakim revolted. In 618 B.C.E., or during Jehoiakim’s third year as tributary ruler, Nebuchadnezzar came against Jerusalem.

The dates are estimates. If you want to say that he became vassal king in the first part of 620 and revolted the very end of 618 that is acceptable and would coincide with the scriptures.

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

thirdwitness

At the start of his book Daniel tells us, “Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it... the king said to Ashpenaz his chief court official to bring some of the sons of Israel and of the royal offspring and of the nobles, children in whom there was no defect at all”. Daniel is among these ones. The King takes them so he can have them “stand in the palace of the king”, but will first “teach them the writing and the tongue of the Chaldeans.”

Presumably, the Hebrew children did not speak the Chaldean language, or know what the King wanted them to do in his palace. They were to be trained. The “king appointed a daily allowance from the delicacies of the king and from his drinking wine, even to nourish them for three years , that at the end of these they might stand before the king .”

So they would be trained for “three years” before being allowed before the King. “And at the end of the days that the king had said to bring them in [that is, the three years], the principal court official also proceeded to bring them in before Nebuchadnezzar. And the king began to speak with them, and out of them all no one was found like Daniel” and his companions. – Daniel chapter 1 Daniel chapter 1

We can see there were clearly “three years” of training before Daniel went before the King. So what is the problem? The issue lies in the next chapter of Daniel, which starts by saying, “And in the second year of the kingship of Nebuchadnezzar , Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams”, a dream which Daniel interpreted.

So, then, why does Daniel says “in the second year” of Nebuchadnezzar?

As we mentioned earlier, Daniel is speaking from the perspective of the Babylonian Kingship over the Jews. That is why he spoke of Jehoiakim's third year of Babylonian Kingship. Similarly, Daniel is also talking about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian kingship over the Jews. This was the “second year” of Nebuchadnezzar being direct King over the Jewish people. Yes, it was the second year after the destruction of Jerusalem when the last Jewish King was removed from his throne.

This must be correct, for the claim of the apostates is preposterous. Daniel 2:13 Daniel 2:13 states, “And the order itself went out, and the wise men were about to be killed; and they looked for Daniel and his companions, for them to be killed.” Why was Daniel known as one of Babylon's “wise men”? Was he not a “child” who had only been in the city for a year and a few months, a boy who was still learning the Chaldean language? Did the account not say that he and his friends were “children”? ( Daniel 1:17 ) Yes! Then why do they suddenly become “wise men” and Daniel an “able-bodied man”? — Daniel 2:25

Furthermore, after Daniel successfully interpreted the King's dream, “the king made Daniel someone great, and many big gifts he gave to him, and he made him the ruler over all the jurisdictional district of Babylon and the chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon... Daniel was in the court of the king.”

So the apostates would argue that Daniel, as one of the “children” still learning the local language, had only been in the city several months before he was regarded as, not a child, but as an able-bodied man and one of the wise men of Babylon.

Also, he became ruler over the entire City, and all of this happened before Daniel had even been brought in before the King for the first time at the end of his three-year basic training. Can we really take such an idea seriously?

On the other hand, according to 607-based Biblical chronology, Daniel was taken into exile in 617 BCE, “in the seventh year” of King Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian kingship, the year Jeremiah says the first exiles were taken. ( Jeremiah 52:28 Jeremiah 52:28 ) Jeremiah does not mention any earlier exiles, so Daniel could not have been in Babylon in the second year, for that is too early. This 607 interpretation also gives Daniel more than enough time to grow out of childhood and become known as an “able-bodied man” and a well-known wise-man.

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

thirdwitness

Jeffro: Aside from the fact that the 3 year paying of tribute would have ended after Jehoiakim's 3rd year of vassalage and not during that would be impossible.

Actually no that is not the case. If Jehoiakim became a vassal king of Babylon around Dec, 621, then (not counting his accession year) his first year as vassal king would begin in April, 620. 2nd year would begin April 619. 3rd year would begin April, 618. 3 years would be completed in Dec 618 still during his 3rd year. His 4th year would not begin until April, 617. He was killed Feb, 617 (I believe it was if memory serves me correctly) before his 4th year as vassal king began. So he would have ruled as vassal king for over 3 years but have still been in his 3rd year.

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

thirdwitness

Steve: Can I ask, when do you think the events of Ch 1:18,19 took place?

Not sure which scripture you mean.

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

thirdwitness

Jeffro: I won't bother pasting the entire original quoted webpage.) Are you the author of that website, or just happy to violate copyright?

It is a collaboration of myself and others.

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

thirdwitness

AlanF said: :: Why, didn't Daniel (ch 2:15) know the reason for his fate if he was already in the kings service as one of the wise men?

: That is a good question. I do not know for sure.

But you earlier claimed that you knew for certain that the events in Daniel 2 occurred after all of the events in Daniel 1. You specifically said that before the events of Daniel 1 occurred, Nebuchadnezzar already knew that Daniel was extremely wise. Which is it?

I am really surprised at your comment here. The question was why didn't Daniel know that all the wise men were to be killed and he had to inquire about it. This has nothing to do with whether Daniel 1 or Daniel 2 occured first. It is obvious to anyone who does not have an agenda that Daniel 1, his three year training, ended first. And Daniel 2 came sometime after the end of his training. At the end of his three year training he was still a lowly newly trained 'wise man'. He was not recognized by the chief wise men as anything great. Otherwise the accounts make no sense whatsoever. Evidently the wise men did not even consider him enough to tell him what was going on.

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

thirdwitness

Jeffro so let me clear this up. You are saying that Daniel was already district ruler and chief prefect over all the wise men before the 3 years of training ended.

You are saying that this: 18 And at the end of the days that the king had said to bring them in, the principal court official also proceeded to bring them in before Neb·u·chad·nez´zar. 19 And the king began to speak with them, and out of them all no one was found like Daniel, Han·a·ni´ah, Mish´a·el and Az·a·ri´ah; and they continued to stand before the king. 20 And as regards every matter of wisdom [and] understanding that the king inquired about from them, he even got to find them ten times better than all the magic-practicing priests [and] the conjurers that were in all his royal realm.

occured after Daniel was ruler over all the jurisditional district of Babylon and chief of all the wise men. And so Neb came in and inquired of these newly trained ones and 'even got to find' that Daniel stood out as ten times better. This should have been no surprise to Neb if this occured after Daniel interpreted the dream . After all, it has already been determined that he was greater than all the wise men in Babylon including the chief wise men because he is the chief of all the wise men already. And district ruler as well. But Neb did not know that he was greater than all the other newly trained ones despite the fact that he had already appointed him ruler and chief of all the wise men and gave him gifts and bowed down to him and paid homage to him because he was able to tell and interpret Neb's dream, something that none of the other long time and head wise men could do. But here after all that Neb is finally finding out how great Daniel is at the end of the three year training.

You really are joking I am certain, right?

91

Daniel's 3 year training and the 2nd year of Nebuchadnezzar.

by thirdwitness in

the previous 607 thread was locked down where the 587 defenders could not overcome the clear reasoning of the bible about the 40 year desolation of egypt.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/117647/1.ashx

but before it was locked down norm brought up a lot of points.

thirdwitness

Why, didn't Daniel (ch 2:15) know the reason for his fate if he was already in the kings service as one of the wise men?

That is a good question. I do not know for sure. Maybe because the Babylonian chief priests did not put much stock in this young Jewish man as being able to tell the dream. I picture there being a whole bunch of wise men and I doubt the chief wise men consulted with all of them. Maybe they assumed that since none of their wise head ones could tell the dream then nobody could.