Posts by thirdwitness

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

To those who would attempt to discredit Vine saying he had an agenda.

So what? What is the agenda of Carl Jonnson and Alan F? I think it is obvious what their agenda is.

But let me remind you of Vine's credentials: W.E. Vine, M.A., was known in his day (1873-1949) as a classical scholar, a skilled expositor, and an acute theologian. Recognized as one of the world's foremost Greek scholars, his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, first published in 1939, now available in Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, represents the fruit of his lifetime labors and is an unsurpassed classic in its field. And Alanf's sources that he quoted did not even disagree with Vine. Some of them outrightly said that parousia can be properly translated as presence. Even so, I have shown the Greek words used in Matt 24 and they prove beyond a doubt that there is a difference between parousia and coming. And the context certainly and definitely allows for that difference. In fact, if the difference is not shown and both words are translated as coming the whole context becomes confusing and the true meaning of what is being said is lost.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

And Steve to you also:

Why do you keep trying to bring up the same thing over and over again. It has been thoroughly covered. Times means what the Bible says it means. Thats it. Whatever else you say is redundant. 3.5 times = 1260 days according to Revelation. Your question makes no sense.

And just as logic and reason on the 70 weeks necessitates applying a day for a year so does the 7 times. I have explained it thoroughly. I realize you do not want to accept the clear and reasonable explanation. You want it on a silver platter. I understand that you don't want to dig deeply into the Bible and connect the dots that are there to be connected. I understand that you do not want to accept that Ezekiel 21 is the very same story as Daniel 4. That one explains the other. I understand that you don't want to accept Isa 6 showing the massive tree was cut down in 607 and the stump of the tree was the holy seed. You wanted Daniel to say, " Hey look boys and girls, 7 times is 2520 days and applying a day for a year as in other cases in the Bible we can arrive at the end of the Gentile Times, 1914." So you want to walk outside your door and find the treasure sitting on your front porch and not have to look at the map and dig for the treasure.

If you want to believe that Daniel 4 is merely a story about some king going mad 2500 years ago then you will have to rip Ezekiel 21 and Isaiah 6 and Revelation 12 out of your Bible and ignore them. Then you can pick up your blinders and put them on and continue to wear them.

Every prophecy in Daniel is about the King of God's kingdom.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Steve: thirdwitness, I think you've just validated AlanF.
:W.E. Vine says: parousia does not signify merely a coming, it includes or suggests the presence which follows the arrival.

If you think this validates Alan then you do not understand what JWs teach about Christ's presence. We teach that he arrived in Kingdom power in 1914 and has been present ever since in the new capacity as ruler of God's kingdom. His presence culminates at Armageddon.

Just look at the question: What will be the sign of your presence and the conclusion of the system?

Then look at Jesus' answer. He brings out many things that would happen that would cover a distinct time period. It would be just like the days of Noah until the flood came. All the things Jesus foretold is evidence that he is present. His presence extends over a time period. It is not just his coming to execute the final judgment. During his presence there would be events taking place that would occur before that final execution. These things that he said would occur makes up the sign of his presence. Some would try to make it so complicated so as to mislead others. And even try to make you think that JWs teach something that they don't really teach.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

And by the way, fisherman and others. The Hillah Stele is not how 539 is arrived at. There are other ways. When I have time I will bring some of it forward. Maybe on another thread. But know this that the same secular 'evidence' that points to 587 is not all the same evidence that points to 539. One way 539 can be arrived at is by using the rules of the Perisian Kings after 539, nothing to do with the Babylonian kings since they ruled before 539..

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

auldsoul: Does the use of "times" instead of "years" mean more than years or less than years?

Why do you keep trying to bring up the same thing over and over again. It has been thoroughly covered. Times means what the Bible says it means. Thats it. Whatever else you say is redundant. 3.5 times = 1260 days according to Revelation. Your question makes no sense.

And just as logic and reason on the 70 weeks necessitates applying a day for a year so does the 7 times. I have explained it thoroughly. I realize you do not want to accept the clear and reasonable explanation. You want it on a silver platter. I understand that you don't want to dig deeply into the Bible and connect the dots that are there to be connected. I understand that you do not want to accept that Ezekiel 21 is the very same story as Daniel 4. That one explains the other. I understand that you don't want to accept Isa 6 showing the massive tree was cut down in 607 and the stump of the tree was the holy seed. You wanted Daniel to say, " Hey look boys and girls, 7 times is 2520 days and applying a day for a year as in other cases in the Bible we can arrive at the end of the Gentile Times, 1914." So you want to walk outside your door and find the treasure sitting on your front porch and not have to look at the map and dig for the treasure.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Another example of parousia used in the scriptures about the man of lawlessness:

2 Thess 2: 9 But the lawless one’s parousia is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents

Question: Should this be translated coming? No. The man of lawlessness presence covers a period of time. He must establish himself with every lying sign and portent. As verse 4 tells us, he must "lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god". His presence is felt because of what he does over a period of time in establishing himself as the man of lawlessness.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

No modern scholar agrees with the WT, right?

How about this one. W.E. Vine, M.A., was known in his day (1873-1949) as a classical scholar, a skilled expositor, and an acute theologian. Recognized as one of the world's foremost Greek scholars, his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, first published in 1939, now available in Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, represents the fruit of his lifetime labors and is an unsurpassed classic in its field. W.E. Vine says: parousia does not signify merely a coming, it includes or suggests the presence which follows the arrival Of course, AlanF will probably say Vine is not a 'modern' scholar. Or simply call him a moron. And then there's Rolf Furuli. Do I need to bring up what he says about parousia. Or is he also not a 'modern' scholar and simply a moron?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

The bullies of the playground don't know what to do when faced with logical scriptural reasoning do they? Except, of couse, name call and try to bully you.

Apparently some including AlanF are not aware of the teachings of JWs. We teach that Jesus arrived in his invisible presence in kingly power in 1914 as Jehovah's appointed king and judge. He has been present since that time and subduing in the midst of his enemies. He has gathered and refined a large army of kingdom proclaimers who preach the good news of the kingdom. He has judged Babylon the great and thus the clear distinction is evident between the true Christian organization led by Christ and the false organization claiming to serve Christ but disowning him by their failure to provide spiritual food for the domestics and failure to preach the good news of the Kingdom and the truths that go along with that good news. His presence continues and will continue up until the destruction of false religion and the nations opposed to God's kingdom at Armageddon. That is when he comes to execute judgment upon those who do not know God and do not obey the good news. Do you think that Christ arrives, is present, then leaves and comes back again? That is not what JWs teach. Christ arrives, is present as God's King rendering judgments and refining his organization on earth. The culmination of his presence is Armageddon.

Matt 24: 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence (parousia) of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence (parousia) of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming (Erchomai not parousia).

43 “But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming (Erchomai not parousia) , he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming (Erchomai not parousia).

Did you notice the difference in the Greek words? Translations that render parousia as coming confuse the text. There is a difference. Big difference. The presence of Christ is like the days of Noah. People were busy with their lives, eating, drinking, marrying etc. This was over a period of time. Then the flood came and destroyed them. Were they busy carrying on with their lives taking no note during the flood. I'm pretty sure they were taking note at that point. Will people being carrying on everyday life when Jesus is destroying them and their governments they have put faith in at Armageddon? Hardly! It is clear that Jesus arrives in kingdom power and is present subduing in the midst of his enemies, while people carry on with their lives taking no note that he is gathering his people into one organization that preaches the good news of the kingdom, before his coming at the final part of his presence to execute judgment.

Look at those teeth on the ground. Whose are they? They're not mine. I still have my teeth and just ripped a whole in AlanF's sad little attempt at discrediting JWs for translating parousia as presence. But all credit should go to Jehovah, not me, who has used JWs to show me and others the truths of the Bible, one of which is about the parousia of Christ.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Translations for Philippians 2:12 where the word parousia occurs.

New International Version
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence,

The New Revised Standard Version
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence,

The Revised Standard Version
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence

The KJV Strong's Version
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence

The NAS Strong's Version
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence

Young's Literal Translation
So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence

Today's New International Version
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence

Webster's Bible Translation
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence

New world translation
Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that YOU have always obeyed, not during my presence

There are many more translations that could be shown. Here they all translate parousia as presence. The NWT consistently translates parousia as presence in every occurence. Just as it consistently translates nephesh and psyke as soul. Just as it consistently translates hades and sheol as hades and sheol. Your attempts at discrediting the WT publications for translating parousia as presence makes evident what your agenda is. If the WT had translated it as coming you would have taken the other side of the argument Just as you would have the 40 year desolation of Egypt if it had disproved 607.Your only purpose is not to give impart truth to anyone but to discredit JWs and as usual you have failed in your sad attempts. Misery loves company and you seem to be trying to get more weepers and gnashers to keep you company.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

AlanF said: You also failed to type in an important further reference that appeared in the Merriam-Webster reference, namely, to SECOND COMING.

Here he is attempting to paint me as deceitful that I hid part of the definition of parousia in the Merriam Webster reference from the readers. What he fails to tell you is second coming is not part of the definition of parousia. Here is what it said.

Parousia

One entry found for Parousia.
Main Entry: Par·ou·sia
Pronunciation: "pär-ü-'sE-&, p&-'rü-zE-&
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek, literally, presence, from paront-, parOn, present participle of pareinai to be present, from para- + einai to be -- more at IS
: SECOND COMING

Notice what I failed to type in is not the definition of parousia, but only a related subject. Of course Christ's coming at Armageddon is a related subject. But it is not the definition of parousia as expounded by Merrian Webster and is not included in that definition by that dictionary. AlanF is an slyly intellectual one all right. He will slyly mislead you away from God's people if he can with his all wise 'intellect' and big sounding words of confusion. But I'm sure that the honest readers are able to examine the information for themselves and see thru the rhetoric of AlanF.