Posts by thirdwitness

39

Earthquakes and rumors of war or whatever ;o)

by Hellrider in

i was so inspired by the ridicolousness of thirdwitnoid in that other thread ("the gentile times reconsidered again...but this time i am using the bible"), in which he actually dared bring up the old "increase in earthquakes"-fairytale from the wt and asleep.

it really had nothing to do in that thread, which was about 607 vs 587 (oh no, not that again.... datelocationdeathsmagnitude.

jan. 23, 1556. shansi, china .

thirdwitness

Hey did you know that earthquakes in 1556 averaged close to one million per year. How about that statistic?

You can't just pull out of your hat and start with a big earthquake that occured and then finish with a big earthquake and claim see there how many died from this period to the period. More is involved than earthquakes. I challenge you to find any 90 year period that had almost 2 million earthquake deaths and 100 million war deaths. And then there is famine and all the other parts of the sign. And so after you find that 90 year period with 2 million and 100 million deaths from eqs and wars, make sure it is also the same 90 year period when the good news of the kingdom of God is preached in almost every country to millions of people. And I'm not talking about the false news about some Trinity God that burns people in hell forever. I'm talking about the real good news of the kingdom--a kingdom set up with God's son as ruler by the true God who is not a Trinity, Jehovah, that will bring paradise conditions to earth as foretold in the Bible.

Then you will have made your point.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

AlanF: 2) John's words in Revelation 1:1, 3 here clearly indicate that he wrote the Revelation just a few years before 70 A.D., in which case his words about the above events being near make sense, being applicable to the soon-to-be-realized destruction of Jerusalem.

Oh ok, so then you believe that God's kingdom begin to rule sometime after 33CE since Revelation includes the prophecy of Satan being thrown out of heaven and God's kingdom taking power at Rev 11 and 12. I thought that you said that Christ began to rule in 33CE after going to heaven and sitting at the right hand of God but wait Paul said in about 61CE at Heb 10:13 that Christ was still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool so that can't be true or was it in 33CE when he was still on earth that he began to rule when he said he had been given 'all authority' .. All does mean all, right?

You sure do contradict yourself alot with your fake Bible interpretations that you don't even believe. You are willing to put forth and support any interpretation except the correct one. Any that disagree with JWs is ok even if they contradict each other and yourself. How intellectually dishonest can you be?

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Jesus is asked, “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your parousia and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Jesus reply begins like this: "And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet."

Is he talking about the sign of his presence here? Yes. That was the question he is answering. In verse 7 and 8 he gives us more details, “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." The parallel statements above are: 'the end is not yet' and 'a beginning of pangs of distress'. There is indeed some period of time involved before the end actually comes.

Are the wars and reports of wars the same as nation rising against nation? Apparently that would be the case. But a key point to notice is that Jesus did not say but 'my parousia is not yet'. He said, 'but the end is not yet'.When Jesus said, ‘but the end is not yet’ he was making a clear distinction between 'a beginning of pangs of distress' and the coming of God's kingdom to destroy the wicked at Armageddon. This beginning of pangs of distress would also mark the beginning of Christ's parousia for he is after all answering the question: What will be the sign of your parousia?

The riding of the horsemen in Revelation 6 and pangs of distress marking Christ’s presence correspond with one another. Both tell of great war, food shortages, and pestilence. A 'beginning of pangs of distress’ and the riding of the horsemen do not mark the beginning of the Great tribulation or the beginning of Armageddon. Christ’s parousia corresponds to the Lord’s Day and to the time when Jesus would receive a crown and began his ride as king, but not to Armageddon, the Great Tribulation, or the end of the system, although these events do occur at the end of the Lord’s Day or Christ’s parousia.

A Guide to 2oth Century Wars makes this comment:

"The 20th century was an era of unprecedented conflict, with wars claiming more victims than ever before. Not only did European wars become truly global for the first time, but the new technologies of violence – from poison gas to the atom bomb – meant that it was easier to kill large numbers of people at the same time. Added to this, wars became total: they were fought with the aim not just of victory, but of annihilating the enemy. And the enemy was no longer simply defined as soldiers, but included civilians."

Here is the link for that sight. http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide20/part05.html

Does that not sound like nation rising against nation! And isn't that exactly what happened during WW I and WW II? For the first time the entire nation including the civilian population was involved in the war on an unprecedented scale, not just the soldiers. In fact, more civilians died in the World Wars than soldiers.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Here is futher proof that the parousia/days of the Son of man covers more than just the time when God's Kingdom comes to destroy the wicked.

First we must establish that the events that John sees in Revelation are events that occur in the Lord’s Day. At Rev 1:10 John writes, "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet…” This clearly establishes that every vision and every happening that John sees are in the Lord’s Day and not before. He then sees in the latter part of chapter one Jesus walking in the midst of the congregations. When? In the Lord’s Day!

Then notice verse 11: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph´e·sus and in Smyr´na and in Per´ga·mum and in Thy·a·ti´ra and in Sar´dis and in Philadelphia and in La·o·di·ce´a.” He then proceeds to write Jesus’ words to the congregations both commending them as well as counseling them. The point is that the congregations have been established sometime during the Lord’s Day for they exist and are receiving the letters in the Lord’s day.

Let us take note of some of the phrases written to those congregations during the Lord’s Day:

Rev 2:5, “If you do not, I am coming to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”

Rev 2:16, “Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.”Rev 2:25, “Just the same, hold fast what YOU have until I come.”Rev 3:3, "Certainly unless you wake up, I shall come as a thief, and you will not know at all at what hour I shall come upon you."

Do you notice what these phrases have in common? According to these verses Jesus Christ has not yet come as a thief in the night to execute judgment with the long sword. That is yet future. There is still time to repent. And remember, according to the earlier scripture John was transferred into the Lord’s Day. We can therefore conclude that the Lord’s Day actually begins before his arrival as a thief in the night at Armageddon.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

effe said: I read this whole thread and I see that 3W, among other things, keeps defending the argument about heavier and more deadly earthquakes from 1914 until now, compared to the period before 1914. Although AlanF has made it painfully clear that such an "argument" is completely rubbish according to the most specific available data today, it still strikes me that 3W is ready to use the argument when the WT has already abandoned it for about 4 years!! They admit that an increase of number or power is required. Why 3W, are you even willing to defend something that doesn't need to be defended anymore? Does that show how much influence the WT has over you, that you can't even accept new light? Your statistics don't mean anything, not only because you're proven grossly wrong by some posters here (specially AlanF), but they also don't mean a thing to the WTS anymore, because no matter how foolish they are at some reasonings, they do accept that there is no increase in number or power. If you would read every post I have written about earthquakes you would see that I have never claimed that there was an increase in the number of earthquakes or the power of earthquakes. I have always maintained that earthquakes have affected far more lives since 1914 than ever by the number of deaths caused. Over 16,000 per year post 1914 Vs. about 2000 deaths per year pre 1914, that is if we take the highest figures available pre 1914. I agree with the WT 100 percent when it said: Note, though, that the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy does not require an increase in the number or power of earthquakes. All Jesus said was that there would be great earthquakes in one place after another. Furthermore, he stated that these events would mark the "beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:8) Distress is measured, not by the number of earthquakes or how they rate on the Richter scale, but by the effect that they have upon people.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

I think I might have called on AlanF in field service one time. I was showing him about how the earth would not be destroyed. And I was reasoning with him on 2 Peter 3 where it shows that the world in Noah's day was destroyed. I reasoned with him that we are still on the same planet earth so just like in Noah's day it will be the same in our day. It is not the planet earth itself that will be destroyed but rather the ungodly men. His reply was: How do you know that the water didn't get so high that Noah ended up on a different planet? Was that you, AlanF? I wonder because his reasoning abilities on the Bible is very similar to that man I met in field service.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

AlanF: Jesus did not give any "signs" of his parousia that included earthquakes, famine, pestilence, war, or any other catastrophes

alrighty then. Lets rip Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 out of our Bible and replace it with AlanF 24: 3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things have nothing to do with the sign of my presence.

AlanF 6: 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was already on his head given him in 33CE, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 And another did not come forth, not even a fiery-colored horse; and there was granted not to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and not even a great sword was given him.

5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! not a black horse; and the one not seated upon it did not have a pair of scales in his hand.

7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and, look! not a pale horse; no one named Death. And no authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.

I am sorry I ever doubted your abilities at understanding, interpreting, and explaining the Bible. I am writing my letter of disassociation tomorrow and joining you as an atheist or whatever you call yourself who don't believe the Bible is inspired and don't believe the true God is Jehovah. Thanks so much for enlightening me. I am so glad that now I can go bar hopping, partying, fornicating, using drugs, smoking, and the like, no longer burdened by those foolish teachings and morals of the Bible and JWs.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

DannyH said: Thank you Alan and company I agree 100 percent. Thank you so much for showing us that try as hard as you can, you just cannot disprove that Christ's parousia and kingdom began in 1914 or that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

auldsoul: Nothing in the Bible ties the presence of the Son of man to the arrival of the kingdom of God. That is a fiction of JWs, not a teaching of the Bible.

I like it when you make statements that are easily shown from the Bible to be false. It makes it so much easier for everyone to see how apostates want to mislead you with non truths. Let me show you AGAIN.

Lets see if you can connect the dots. I will highlight the key points in red to help you out.

Matt 24: While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” ... 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

Luke 21 adds; 11 ...and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages;

Enter Revelation 6: 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; (Rev 19:11) and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.

5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de·nar´i·us, and three quarts of barley for a de·nar´i·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.”

7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha´des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Did you note? Christ's arrival in his presence would be followed by great war, food shortages, pestilence. Christ's receiving crown was to be followed by great war, food shortages, pestilence.

Rev 12: 9 So down the great dragon was hurled,... 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, ... 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU , having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

Note: first God's kingdom comes to pass then woe for the earth. Woe such as great war, food shortages, pestilence.

Psalms 110: 1 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

Heb 10:12: sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.

Luke 21:24: Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

Ezekiel 21:26: ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown (607--Zedekiah removed). This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’

Daniel 4:17: that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.”

God's kingdom was trampled on until the Gentile times ended in 1914 after the 2520 years. At that time God's kingdom was no longer under the feet of the enemies but rather the role was reversed and now the enemies were a stool for Jesus' feet.

Luke 21: 29 With that he spoke an illustration to them: “Note the fig tree and all the other trees: 30 When they are already in the bud, by observing it YOU know for yourselves that now the summer is near. 31 In this way YOU also, when YOU see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near.

Compare this to Matt 24: 32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also YOU , when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.

Matthew 25: 10 While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived, and the virgins that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.

When Christ shuts the door it means it is too late and that is the time when God's kingdom take action to destroy its enemies. When you see the sign of Christ's presence you should know that the kingdom's coming at Armageddon to destroy the wicked is near.

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

thirdwitness

Auldsoul said: It matters not whether you assert that "every eye will see him" is figurative. It still would be earthwide recognition of an event, seeing it for what it is and for what it means for the earth. This event would not require preachers. This event did not happen in 1914. Down to our day the JW conjecture that "occurred" in 1914 is still not recognized by the majority of the world.

You are mixed up. I see that you have been taken in by AlanF's wrong thinking that JWs believe that Rev 1:7 is about 1914. As I have pointed out over and over again Revelation 1:7 is not referring to 1914 and the start of Christ's parousia. It is referring to the final part of Christ's parousia, time of the destuction of the wicked when every eye will indeed see him when they are either destroyed or saved. Yes, this event will be seen by all.

So your saying that Christ's parousia could not have begun in 1914 because every eye did not see it is bogus. The Bible easily shows you to be wrong that every eye would see Christ's arrival at the beginning of his parousia. Remember this scripture: 2 Peter 3: 3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”

So there you have it. Most people would not recognize that Christ's parousia had begun and that we were living in the last days. This coincides with what Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is not coming the striking observableness." Why do you think a sign was needed anyway?