Good points Marvin.
A surprising article - I just mentioned it to Zen on AJWRB and he is going to do a little investigating. This goes counter to what the Red Cross says, and they really don't have a bone to pick with JWs.
Randy
Dogpatch
JoinedPosts by Dogpatch
-
17
Severe Blood Conservation Appears Safe In Cardiac Surgery For Jehovah's Witnesses
by TJ Curioso insevere blood conservation appears safe in cardiac surgery for jehovah's witnesses .
severe blood conservation in conjunction with cardiac surgery is not associated with long-term adverse consequences, according to a new study published in archives of internal medicine.
investigators from the cleveland clinic and the nhlbi compared 322 patients who were jehovans witnesses with an equal number of matched controls.
-
-
-
12
Hassan's Books - Question
by LV101 ini know you've answered this question before but which book do you recommend be read first --- combatting cult mind control (ccmc) or releasing the bonds (rtb)?
.
thanks.
-
-
Dogpatch
iT'S A GOOD ONE!
Also at the time he wrote it he din't know enough about the JWs to realize they were a cult. I spent a couple of days with bhim then at a cult conference in Berkeley in the mid 80s and filled him in on them. That's why he doesn't mention JWs as a cult (In Releasing he does). That was ther beginning of our frienship and him teaching me about exit-counseling and doing cases with him.
Randy
-
171
Watchtower's Billion Dollars of Property Cannot Be Sold until Outcome of Conti Appeal
by Dogpatch in30 minutes ago i just got off the phone with some important players in this case, and some things were relayed to me concerning a lot of details of the outcome of the last two days of court.
i am passing this on.
cynthia hampton, one of the main players in the candace conti case (and a close friend of 28 years), just informed me of a further, far more powerful move by the state of california against the watch tower bible and tract society of new york, inc.. by order of the superior court of the state of california - county of alameda (see documents below), until the watch tower's appeal, which won't begin until august 13th and will take up to two years to settle due to due process of law, has forbidden the watch tower to sell any more of its $1 billion in assets in the borough of brooklyn until the appeals case is finished, to assure they won't shelter their monies in the light of this most huge and devastating sexual abuse scandal ever to hit the watch tower society, and perhaps any other single-victim lawsuit.
-
-
Dogpatch
UPDATE: It appears they may be able to get a bond afterall. We'll see! At any rate, keep it in the news and let's see what happens.
Randy
-
70
How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;
by booker-t ini am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.
especially hellfire.
i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.
-
-
Dogpatch
HAHA
LOl Hi Ros!
It's been so many years.
I didn't know you posted here. (You may have told me before, sorry if so).
Good to hear from you! I think we are close to being on the same page.
Actually, the study of the formation of the 66 books we call the Bible, and all the extra contempoorary literature from about 200 BC to about 250 AD is much more fascinating if we aren't looking for a custom religion, as you know. It prevents cognitive dissonance, and like a vacation to the middle East for research purposes, it is just fascinating to keep yourself liker a fly on the wall, recording what you learn and see. :-))
hugs to ya!
I hope Alan is better.
Randy
-
12
Hassan's Books - Question
by LV101 ini know you've answered this question before but which book do you recommend be read first --- combatting cult mind control (ccmc) or releasing the bonds (rtb)?
.
thanks.
-
-
Dogpatch
Check out www.freedomofmind.com
Combatting Cult Mind Control is designed to teach what exit-counseling is all about, and is intended for those who want to know what NOT to do to mess things up, and what TO DO positively to get someone out of a cult. I prefer it... but Reasoning introduces a more advanced view of understanding how to get healed... thus is more for the newly-out or almost out cultist. You would not normally give Combatting to an active cult member, as the groups leaders study it and warn their members.
Reasoning is a much lareger book and helpful to say, members of this board. Each has it's own merits.
Now he has a third book!
In the post 911 world, people are more susceptible than ever to charismatic figures who offer simple, black v. white, us v. them, good v. evil, formulaic solutions. The rise of the Internet; increasingly sophisticated knowledge about how to influence and manipulate others; and the growing vulnerabilities of people across the planet—make for a dangerous, potentially devastating combination. Steven Hassan’s new book Freedom of Mind provides the knowledge and awareness needed to help yourself and loved ones avoid or escape from such dangerous people and situations. Coming in June. Buy @ Amazon.ComActually it is already out:
Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Beliefs [Paperback]
Steven Hassan (Author) Be the first to review this item | Like ( 0 )
Price: $16.95 In Stock.
Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.Want it delivered Tuesday, July 3? Order it in the next 33 hours and 26 minutes, and choose One-Day Shipping at checkout. Details 5 new from $16.94 1 used from $65.85 -
57
Rick Fearons wife Inez passed away
by mouthy indid anyone hear that rick fearons wife inez passed away???
?.
-
-
Dogpatch
Hugs to you Rick. So sorry.
Randy
-
41
How do you deal with your "down" time?
by compound complex inby that, i don't mean so much what you do in your leisure time but how you manage the freedom to choose what you will or will not do.
off the wt treadmill, i no longer feel guilty about what is now my neglect of theocratic activity; however, after a nonstop week such as i have just lived through (barely), i am doing nothing, going nowhere, and accepting no new obligations (for the moment).
i can stare at the sky, enjoy the beautiful day and not worry that demons are rushing to fill the void in my empty skull.. you?.
-
-
Dogpatch
What is "down time" Coco? (Oh, yes, I seem to remember now!)
How are you? Sorry I haven't been in touch for so long, I miss your writings, but have been so damn busy I can't see straight. Or even crooked.
Randy
-
70
How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;
by booker-t ini am just curious about this because although i agree with many of the posters here that the wt society is guilty of many horrible deeds, i still believe they are right when it comes to doctrinal things as i mention.
especially hellfire.
i just don't see how anybody that has studied the bible for many years like many of the ex-jws here can make an about face and go back to believing hellfire.
-
-
Dogpatch
Thanks for the clarification Binadub.
I wouldn't consider it "hogwash," just tainted with unorthodox leanings.
The main point is, it is not mainstream nor recognized by most scholars as representing the early church's faith. Sects like the JWs use it like they use Johannes Greber's Bible. :-))
Wikipedia says,
In 1952 the copyright to the Diaglott expired and it fell into the public domain. The Watch Tower Society's sold the Diaglott inexpensively (offering it free of charge from 1990), [ 4 ] making it non-viable for others to print until the depletion of that inventory. [ 5 ] Others such as Wilson's home church, Church of the Blessed Hope, had considered reprinting their own edition; in 2003 the Miami church of the group, with support from Christadelphians in the United Kingdom and the United States published their own edition, with a new preface. [ 6 ]
The public domain status of The Emphatic Diaglott has made it a popular online translation. [ 7 ]
____________________
But there is more evidence than that. Of the Church of the Blessed Hope, Wikipedia says,
Background
The Church of the Blessed Hope or Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith (CGAF)¹ has common roots with the Christadelphians and the Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith). Benjamin Wilson, founder of the Abrahamic Faith, and John Thomas, founder of the Christadelphians, were both British emigrants who had been associated with the Campbellite movement in Illinois, but were among those who separated because of the objection to the doctrines of the immortality of the soul and the Trinity. Thomas and Wilson first corresponded by letter from 1846-1856 then met and were in active fellowship from 1856-1862. However in 1863 a disagreement between the two men concerning the judgment seat and the resurrection caused the groups associated with them, to separate and the rift was confirmed when the two groups registered (for the purposes of conscientious objection in the American Civil War) with different names in 1865. [ 1 ]
Benjamin Wilson spent his early life in Halifax, England. Benjamin, with his brothers, Joseph, John, and James, questioned the teachings of their local Baptist Church and "became convinced that the promises to Abraham were central to salvation". Benjamin and James moved their families to Geneva, Illinois in 1844. Brothers John and Joseph came to Geneva around 1849. Together they started a church in Geneva. Because of adopting a stance against military service, there was a need to adopt an "official" name during the Civil War. The name "Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith", suggested by Benjamin Wilson, was chosen. The work of the Wilsons led to a number of congregations from Ohio to California (where Benjamin later moved), but no central organization.
The Church of the Blessed Hope began as a local congregation in Cleveland, Ohio. It was organized on October 4, 1863. Mark Allen, a missionary of the Church of God Abrahamic Faith movement from Woburn, Massachusetts, led fourteen Ohioans in founding this body. Congregations were soon afterward established in Salem and Unionville, and these congregations incorporated themselves as the Church of the Blessed Hope in 1888. All these congregations still exist, though the Cleveland body has moved to Chesterland. The leader of the Cleveland congregation from 1922–1927 was a Christadelphian.
The Church of the Blessed Hope and the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith were different in name, but part of the same movement. By the early 20th century, the movement had grown to over 200 congregations in about a dozen states. They were only a loose fellowship of churches. Some ties were maintained by state conferences and a periodical, The Restitution.
When Benjamin Wilson retired in 1869 he left his The Gospel Banner to be merged with his nephew Thomas Wilson's Herald of the Coming Kingdom and Bible Instructor, which was renamed in The Restitution in 1871 and published by Thomas Wilson and W.D. St.Clair in Chicago. In 1911 the five man Ministerial Association objected to the next editor of The Restitution, A. R. Underwood of Plymouth Indiana, leading to a severing of fellowship of the churches.
The majority followed those opposed to Underwood, led by L. E. Connor, they added two doctrines to their statement of faith - universal resurrection and open communion. Later, they also added the belief in a personal devil. The majority regrouped in 1921 and organized the Church of God (General Conference)(CoGGC) publishing a new magazine The Restitution Herald, published in Oregon, Illinois.
Five congregations (3 in Ohio and 1 each in Kentucky and Indiana) rejected these doctrinal additions and stood for the old Geneva Statement of Faith, now publishing The Restitution from Cleveland, Ohio. The minority congregations maintained ties, and in 1966 four of the then six churches adopted a uniform doctrinal statement. In 1976 these six churches (informally known as CGAF) began to gather for an annual gathering, which is now held each year in August at various colleges in Ohio. [ 2 ]
Faith and Practice
The Church of the Blessed Hope (CGAF) rejects the doctrine of the Trinity; recognizes the Bible as God's revealed word; teaches that salvation is obtained through hearing, believing, confessing, and obeying the gospel; and expects the premillennial return and reign of Jesus, in which the righteous and the unjust will be raised, but that those who have not heard the gospel will not be raised from the dead. Valid baptism is performed through the immersion of believers in water. Christ's command to partake the bread and the cup (communion) is observed weekly.
They reject the doctrines which the larger CoGGC grouping accepted in 1921, namely a literal devil, universal resurrection, and open communion. Additionally CGAF members do not serve in war as combatants, though some congregations permit members to serve in humanitarian positions. [ 3 ]
____________________________
Soooo.....
Sounds pretty fishy to me, unless you choose to side with the denial of the Trinity, immortal soul, the devil, salvation by grace alone, and so on. I find it hard to believe that you separated him out from what he was involved in, and his already preconceived orthodox ideas. He was obviously NOT a Baptist in belief, and his adventures sound just like those of C.T. Russell.
As for not judging a "scholar" by their beliefs, that's stretching it a bit to apply that to any but a few "scholars." But I agree in that German theologians are much better than American ones on that, for instance. And as far as the Catholic church, I agree with you they have a much better handle on much of theology AND history than any American evangelical churches I know of. (Minus the pope... perhaps Greek Orthodoxy is more true to history). But they were human, too. We will never know what was lost in antiquity, and we have quite a large collection of what was ADDED under false authority.
By the way, none of this has any bearings on my own beliefs. :-))
I didn't accept some of Foursquare's stuff, and I don't believe in the WT teachings. Nor am I a Catholic. I don't let my personal beliefs get in the way of good historical investigation, and Wilson apparently did. What makes you thinhk I'm an evangelical? I never believed in hell, two classes of Christians, immortality of the soul, etc. or the Genesis account of early history or the creation account. And the Trinity doesn't violate the teachings of the main body of Christians of the first two to three centuries. It's simply MAN's efforts to put the pieces of the Bible together. But it is still a man-made doctrine, as all of them are.
thanks bro, I did learn something about Wilson. :-))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphatic_Diaglott
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Blessed_Hope
Randy
P.S. G.K. Chesterton is one of my favorite writers, a Catholic.
also Catholicism and Fundamentalism, which opened my eyes greatly. Changed my tune on many historical events.
"Orthodoxy" is only important to me as to whether it represents what was historically considered mainstream Christianity. I study it's sects once in awhile, but they are called "sects" for a reason. Most scholars disagree with them, religious or not. Many of the German theologians aren't even what Americans would consider Christian. It has no religious meaning to me at all. Purely secular reading as far as I'm concerned. Certainly not "tainted" with my theology, as I have none.
peace! And you are right:
Scholarship is examining the information on its own merits, independent of who agrees with it or what their religion is.
That's why in most of my tomes on doctrine (which were all written in the early 80s) are written more from a third person perspective. The tome on HELL on my site was written to win a bet against a DF's anointed guy who challlenged me on the history of hell, Carlin Venus in Canoga Park area.
Then BOTH authors gave me permission to use the tome, which is a comparison of the two views of hell as discussed by Robert Morey and Edward Fudge, quite some time AFTER I wrote it, because they BOTH liked it. Fudge gave me permission on the condition that I send him two more of it in book form. Pretty funny! :-))
It is in book form at:
-
99
Thought Reform and the Psychology of the 'Safeguard Your Heart!' 2012 Convention
by breakfast of champions into make attendance at my second district convention "mentally out" both a little more bearable and meaningful, i decided to take some notes of key points as if i were an outsider studying the thought reform methods of jehovah's witnesses.
at first, i was only going to share these notes with my therapist, but inspired by the "parsing the watchtower double-speak" thread, i figured i would share my amateur analysis with everyone.
here are some of the highlights:.
-
-
Dogpatch
good observations, BOC.
Randy
-
25
Truth behind Scientology revealed - KATIE HOLMES TELLS ALL !!!
by talesin injust kidding, but wouldn't it be cool if she divorced tommy, and revealed the truth about this cult?
hehehe.
tal .
-
-
Dogpatch
Only after she pursues her career, and Misscavige is gone.
R
