Posts by Vinny

posted

27
"The Red Corvette" problem -- a disconnect in view points
by AlmostAtheist in
1. jw
2. friends
in another thread, a poster brought up what he called "the red corvette" problem.

the problem, he said, is that if you are a true atheist, you must believe that a red corvette could simply form out of nothing.

if you believe life originated from nothing, then you must believe that a less-complicated machine such as a sports car could also have originated from nothing.
Vinny

Here we go again...

And now Vinny, who just said a fond farewell on that other LONG-thread that he spent a TON of time on because as already mentioned on that other thread, I have many other more important issues to contend with, (such as a wife getting hammered by JW elders this week, our own oldest kid shunning her, depression-anger etc taking over, our YOUNGEST KID trying to figure out how to GET OUT and not lose EVERYTHING SHE EVER KNEW, my own business that has many projects waiting for me RIGHT NOW, the third, middle kid newly married at 20, to a 17 year old, and who is OUT of the JW's, but living at home with new wife and too many other things not even listed here). After posting thorough and often lengthy replies on the original thread, where it was 18 ATHEISTS TO ONE THEIST (a thread where atheists were BURIED... just read it folks, see for yourself), I now have to come back over here and straighten this thread of mumbo-jumbo out again.

.

I do assume Almost Atheist had good intentions, from reading his P.M. to me. But this is just one big MESS now that I have showed up and read what was written.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/132307/1.ashx

Let's imagine that you are completely alone in the middle of North Dakota somewhere, surrounded by nothing but mountainous wilderness, no people, no buildings, just you alone and the wilderness for hundreds of miles. And right there in the middle of it all you suddenly walk up to a brand new looking Red Chevrolet Corvette, unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, a full tank of gas and one road taking you out. Now, it would in my opinion be nothing short of preposterous, actually INSANE to even entertain the mere possibility if someone were to try telling you that THAT brand new looking Red Corvette just happened to get there, on its own, without any intelligent designer behind it whatsoever. That somehow, some way it just happened to be some product of "blind chance" without any intellectual forces behind that ready-to-drive automobile.

Unbelievable there is also a hood, with an outside and inside hood latch that allows you to look at the motor that evolved on its own. All the while fitting perfectly and symmetrically into perfect place. In another incredible act of CHANCE, there is a gas pedal too that when pressed carefully lets that amazingly complex machine (that just happened by series chances) to move forward. Of course once you did get in it and realized this amazing machine can actually take you wherever you wish to go, you have another serious problem; whoops, how do you STOP IT? Big problem. Well lookey here!... there is a BRAKE PEDAL right next to the gas pedal that just so happens to connect to four disc brakes that also are perfectly hitched to brake rotors, and calipers that are coincidentally just perfectly hooked up with those perfectly rounded and symmetrical tires that we already discovered earlier. And through some act of evolutionary coincidence, this braking system has a MASTER CYLINDER that just also happens to have the perfectly positioned brake lines, filled with just the correct kind and correct amount of brake fluid. Of course if it were instead power steering fluid, or transmission fluid or gasoline in them there brake lines it would not work one bit, and may even catch on fire, but since it has the exact consistency needed for brake fluid, it works like a charm. How bout that!

There are several clear windows to look out from as well. Sure need those; glad they just happened to FALL INTO PLACE where they did too. Pretty amazing how the elements and other external forces just happened to get that red shiny paint job only where it is and not on the windows, would have a problem there for sure. And guess what else, inside it has heat and ac and rear defrost and windshield wiper blades, a fuel gauge, temp gauge, tachometer with speedometer, with perfectly located knobs that even say heat and ac and wiper speeds. How did that get here on it's own? Amazing aint it? And for some strange reason it needs to have some little piece of metal to turn the thing on, I believe they call it a KEY. Low and behold THERE IS A KEY, with the exact correct notches already in the perfectly located steering wheel. How bout all that, what an amazing coincidence!

Obviously I could continue on with this for pages and pages folks. I am sure you can see the point. (Try as you may to AVOID the point), It would be silly, foolish, absurd, outrageous, strange, weird and just impossibly IGNORANT to believe ALL of these things just happened by blind chance, without any intelligence at all, creating one single, ready-to drive Red Chevrolet Corvette. If nobody on this board could be convinced of such a foolish idea with one automobile in the middle of nowhere, how then could people POSSIBLY believe that a FAR, FAR MORE complex universe and earth, filled with far more complicated life (than that single corvette) could possibly just happen by itself, through some evolutionary process, with absolutely no help from an intelligent source anywhere?

The reality is, I would have a better chance of selling somebody on that car that just formed by itself, through a Big Bang/abiogenesis (the supposed origination of life from lifeless matter) and then evolved with all the perfect pieces fitting together, than on the UNIVERSE and EARTH itself just happening to form themselves as well as all life forms upon the earth. A human being is far, far more complex that that car. With our immune systems, lymphatic systems, digestive systems, cardio systems with heart chambers and blood vessels, nervous systems, joints, muscles, tendons, brains with billions or neurons, eyes that see, ears that hear, nose that smells, fingers that feel, skin that sweats, mouth that tastes, chews and swallows. Feet, legs, knees that move and bend. Reproductive systems that can create new life etc etc on and on. The complexity of one human being puts that new Corvette to shame. Millions of time more complex. You get a scratch on that new car and you will visiting the body shop. Scratch or hurt yourself, and the body has the ability to actually heal itself. And you really hope to convince me it happened all by CHANCE, with no designer, no intelligence behind it all? Some primordial evolutionary soup like process, which resulted from a big ole BANG? We haven't even started discussing the complexity and incredible order of our UNIVERSE yet. Or the earth , how outstandingly complex yet perfectly harmonized it is. Photosynthesis, clouds and rain, the perfect tilt and rotational speed of the earth, perfect location of the sun, the moon, our orbit speed. The atmosphere, ozone layer, perfect amount of oxygen in the air. Gravity, food cycles, fire; all happened by blind chance? No intelligence required? Sorry atheists, but you are DEAD IN WATER here.

Lets talk about science for just a moment. The science where many get there beliefs that there is NO GOD, no maker because they cannot prove he exists. If science is so smart and such a trustworthy source, why cannot science then create life from non living matter? It has not been done. ANYWHERE, EVER. Not only can it not do such a thing as make life from non-living matter, even if all the parts are already there, in human form, animal form or any form, science cannot even PUT LIFE BACK to the BODY that just lost it prematurely through accidents, disease or any other disaster, or death through natural aging? With all the parts ALREADY TOGETHER, in front of these scientists, they are still helpless and cannot make LIFE exist. Yet they insist that ALL life as we see it today, just happened by some series of chances, without ANY help from any intelligent source. How reasonable is this? Let me answer that for you, IT'S NOT REASONABLE AT ALL.

This is why I believe in an Intelligent DESIGNER, a Creator rather than some abiogenesis/evolutionary/Big BANG series of processes resulting in all that we have today. It makes perfect sense. It is reasonable, it is logical and rational. To believe everything we see just happened BY ITSELF is none of those things in my sincere and honest opinion. Science cannot even feed the poor nor cure the worlds problems either. It has not even cured AIDS, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, alzheimer's, fixed global warming, the ozone layer and tens of thousands of other issues. And people wish to put their FULL TRUST in science when it comes to believing in a God or not? Sorry, I am not convinced and do not buy any of what they are selling. It is actually laughable to believe all things originated from nothing, all on their very own, without any intelligence behind it

There is just no way that it is even remotely, plausibly even MINUTELY possible that ALL of those marvelous features coming together at one time is due to a series of random, evolutionary, unguided CHANCES. When I look at an incredible startlit sky, in my mind there is not a chance that these all happened to be formed by a similar series of just aimless, arbitrary, haphazard, hit-or-miss events; a rolling of the dice if you will. They are extremely organized, finely tuned and intricate. They have clearly been PUT there and brought into motion by SOMEBODY.

The many systems that allow LIFE ON EARTH to exist likewise are organized, they are purposeful, intricate and again are finely tuned with other systems. AGAIN, by some merely accidental, casual, fortuitous, stroke of luck? That simply is not reasonable or logical to myself nor most other people. I have examined both sides of the evidence. For me there is just NO WAY these things happened without the guiding hand of intellect. For you and some others they may have come together by mere chance or in fact did come together by mere chance. I disagree. I have read the textbooks, have seen the arguments from scientists like Richard Dawkins. I consider such attempts to use abiogenesis/evolution as the explanation to explain how life arose to be far, far-fetched, and one giant stretch after another. Nothing has ever been duplicated. It bypasses the "Every beginning has a Cause" universal principle. It seeks to eliminate God altogether and then build around that premise in what many consider to be embarassing, feeble attempts of explanation. It fails miserably in my opinion and the opinion of billions of others as well.

This is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there. You have completely failed in dealing with this. It applies. It fits. IT WORKS. If you believe in atheism, then you believe that red vette COULD happen all on its own. It is just too funny to watch some of you little atheists try to explain to me how the vette thing CAN'T HAPPEN. Well, I KNOW IT CAN'T HAPPEN. Hello out there. But this is exactly what atheists BELIEVE happened to the far more precise and complex features surrounding us today. It's like some kind of TWO-STEP you atheists like to do. It can't happen with the vette, it can't happen with the vette... but it DID happen with sun, moon, stars, earth, animals, people etc.

You see folks, a perfectly spinning, tilted and orbiting earth did not EVOLVE, like you claim all OTHER LIFE on earth did. Neither did the atmosphere including ozone layer on earth, the water cycles, nor did the moon, sun and stars EVOLVE as you state in your explanations above. Nor did many BILLIONS of other things similar. Your argument, like I said, is LOSE LOSE for atheists. Again, this is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there.

In the simplest of terms then:

If through some cosmic "BIG BANG", ALL of the billions of stars in our own organized, orderly Milky Way Galaxy, as well as the BILLIONS of other organized and orderly Galaxies with their billions of stars came into existence. And if inside our very own organized and orderly galaxy, in what is known as our own orderly SOLAR SYSTEM, we have at just the right distance from our perfectly sized SUN, a perfectly located and sized planet EARTH, that also rotates at the perfect speed of 24 hours (needed to sustain life) as well as orbits around the sun at the perfect speed of 66,600 mph to keep it in that precise orbiting pattern and not sucked into the gravitational pull of the sun itself. And if this perfectly located, spinning and orbiting EARTH also has perfectly, purposeful and finely balanced SYSTEMS upon it (NEEDED TO SUSTAIN LIFE) such as different atmospheric layers, with protective ozone layer, with just the correct amount of gases needed to sustain life. (.Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, argon, water vapor and other smaller trace gasses). And if this same, orbiting, spinning, perfectly located EARTH with perfect atnosphere for life, located perfectly inside the universe with many billions of organized galaxies ALSO has a variety of unique, perfectly balanced SYSTEMS AND FEATURES such as water cycles, weather systems, eco systems, food chain systems, microbial systems, photosynthesis, tides due to a perfectly located and spinning and sized moon at the precisely needed location and too many others to list here.

And if UPON this perfectly located, spinning EARTH, with it's many perfectly balanced features and systems (found in the middle of an organized orderly universe), there also happens to be a variety of LIVING THINGS on this earth, with ITS OWN amazingly complex varieties of different systems such as digestive, circulatory, reproductive, elimination, immune, neurological etc etc, that just happened to originate from NOTHING AT ALL, through some BIG BANG, into an organized gargantuan UNIVERSE, with a perfectly located, spinning, orbiting EARTH located within that universe, that just so happened to come WITH the many FEATURES needed to support life, along with all these many varieties OF LIFE FORMS that supposedly arose from lifeless matter, primordial soup, to polymers, into complex living things including human BRAINS and beyond; then FOLKS if all this happened, ***ALL ON ITS VERY OWN***, without any INTELLECTUAL SOURCE anywhere, then THAT RED CORVETTE showing up in the wilderness with gas, keys and everything in place is a PIECE OF CAKE. That Red Vette, all on it's own, is easy as counting 1,2,3 when compared to all THESE OTHER things arising from and existing because of a series of what can only be described as FAT-CHANCES, ALL ON THEIR VERY OWN.

NOW DEAL WITH IT ATHEISTS!

This is why you athesists are STUCK with red corvette on your foreheads for life. It applies, it fits, it works. For those of you that want to try wiggling off the hook because red vette aint living, breathing, self-replicating life form, you are then BURIED by the fact that neither is the earth, moon, sun, and stars or universe living, breathing, self-replicating life forms. Neither is atmosphere, water cycles, photosynthesis, weather systems etc living breathing self-replicating life forms. But I already addressed that in the other thread. I am only repeating myself here AGAIN. This is why Almost Atheist failed in presenting the argument correctly. Is why atheists arguments above have no legs at all.

Is also why so few humans ever buy into it.

I am swamped, but like other thread, if I have to, I will have to show up again when I can. Atheism will always lose. Try agnostic approach then. Throw out the bible then. Fine with me. But you cannot get around SOME Intellectual force behind the amazing things we see and know about today. Telling us that the universe, the earth and all life upon the earth originated from nothing at all, to Big Bang, to Primordial soup, to polymers, to living breathing reproductive things does not cut it.

ADDITIONALLY, I thoroughly explained in that other thread why God Himself needs no Designer. There is no special pleading either. I will re-post it here too, if I have to. This is why it would have been better to just keep it all in one place to begin with. I do not want to be all over this website. One was enough.

I will be back as soon as possible. But it will not be good news for atheists when I do. You are just on the wrong side of the issue here. Sorry.
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

I cannot re-edit posts from a Mac. Forgot to delete that last quote on the bottom from LTCMD.LORE.

Cheers
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

Encore Return SPANKINGS for the Atheists.

Vinny's posts are too long is a BORING, USELESS EXCUSE.

This is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there. You have completely failed in dealing with this. It applies. It fits. IT WORKS. If you believe in atheism, then you believe that red vette COULD happen all on its own. It is just too funny to watch some of you little atheists try to explain to me how the vette thing CAN'T HAPPEN. Well, I KNOW IT CAN'T HAPPEN. Hello out there. But this is exactly what atheists BELIEVE happened to the far more precise and complex features surrounding us today. It's like some kind of TWO-STEP you atheists like to do. It can't happen with the vette, it can't happen with the vette... but it DID happen with sun, moon, stars, earth, animals, people etc.

You see folks, a perfectly spinning, tilted and orbiting earth did not EVOLVE, like you claim all OTHER LIFE on earth did. Neither did the atmosphere including ozone layer on earth, the water cycles, nor did the moon, sun and stars evolve as you state in your explanations above. Nor did many BILLIONS of other things similar. Your argument, like I said, is LOSE LOSE for atheists. Again, this is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there.

I suspect anyone who reads this thread will have respect for the "little" 17 y.o., who displayed so much class, whether they agree with him or not. Vinny, I suggest you do some reading on logical fallacies. Perhaps if you understand the concept, your "debating" might actually resemble a debate, where all participants are respected. I saw the other posters on this thread treating you with respect, but I saw zero respect in your replies to them. A shame really. There are many Christians and theists on this board who can participate in these discussions with reasonableness, respect, intelligence and class. Being the most insulting does not make you right, being the loudest does not make you right either. Being in the company of intelligent people does not necessarily guarantee you are either right or intelligent. It simply means you hold the same opinions. Remember the "moral majority?"

"As it stands, I have been ignoring your posts when they grow to such lengths. (My reason is that I find them to be inconsiderate when they are so long, so I won't help validate them by reading them."

"I'm quite impressed with the dignity you showed here (LTCMD.LORE) and your ability to express yourself logically, reasonably and without resorting to personal insults, even while you were repeatedly subjected to gross disrespect by Vinny."

"Vinny must WORSHIP a very ANGRY god...PERHAPS it's that JERK YHWH...LOL"

"LOL, what a wicked thread....and vinny man, seriously! take the red pill dude. people are trying to help you and you are not letting them! damn, the lurkers are getting more from this exchange than you are!"

"Yo vinny, I was considering believing in God again till I read your arguments. Now there's no way in hell."

not sarcasm."

"using Einstein and his great intellectual achievements as a prop to formal religious representations of a personal God is just plain **dishonest**."

"How old are you Vinny? Because in this thread you seem to be very young, immature and incapable of debating in a rational adult manner."

AAAAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAH

And that was just when I started. I'd call that pretty lame debating folks. Sounds more like POLITICS to me.

Sorry Odrade, you deserved your SPANKING. You can go running back home to mamma again now and hide.

1- Antichrist, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.

2- Antichrist, how does it feel believing that red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own?

3- Antichrist, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today?

4- Antichrist, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?

5- Antichrist, what does it say to you when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.

If you are not atheist Antichrist, then will you tell the other posters just WHY you are not atheist at this time. Though your replies sure SOUND like atheist. If you are atheist then please answer the questions. There is only five of them. Or perhaps another atheist can answer all five in order.

It was very good, you handled the blood issue wonderfully.

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=28082&discussionID=557309

He never answered my questions and then just left altogether. MUCH LIKE THIS THREAD ACTUALLY. This is often the way it works with JW's willing to mix it up with EX-JW's too.

I was not looking to leave WT-world at all last year. I was content as a man moving up with many responsibilities and oversight in the org. But the facts are the facts. It hit me like a ton of bricks the first few weeks. The consequences are hefty, as most all on this board know.

Gumby gets pulled apart if you are an atheist trying to explain how life and features arrived from nothing. My belief in,"Intelligent design", which the earth, and universe is abundantly filled with, very simply requires "intelligence", as well as "a designer". This is a simple and yet well accepted principle throughout all humankind wherever you go. When one sees evidence of intelligent design", one naturally assumes, rightfully so, that there is a designer. It can be a house; obviously that house was designed and built by SOMEBODY. It can be a thermometer, a computer a Red Corvette, a painting, deck of cards or anything else. None of these things just happened by themselves, did they? So then, if it is logical and reasonable to conclude that every thing constructed was constructed by somebody, then why would it not make sense to believe that the far more complicated universe, earth, human beings and animals that fill the earth too must have also been designed and created? Created by a higher intelligence than humans. In the simplest of terms then, my argument and belief that these things were created by an intelligent creator, sure sounds better and more plausible, logical, reasonable and convincing than believing they happened by themselves. That is what all of this really boils down to. This is one reason so FEW believe in atheism, it makes little sense from a logical standpoint. Did that Corvette happen by itself, or was it instead designed by Chevrolet? Did the far more complex universe then create itself, or does it not make sense that it was DESIGNED? It makes by far the most sense to believe it was created, was DESIGNED rather than happened by some chance or evolveD all on its own, whEN even the simplest of life forms have never been created from lifeless matter in the most controlled of settings.

THERE IS JUST NO WAY THAT COULD HAPPEN.

LIFE INSTEAD IS THE RESULT OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

(Wow, you've been making huge posts for quite some time huh?)

It was very good, you handled the blood issue wonderfully. But what happened to you over the course of a year?
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

END OF THE ROAD...

**** Read above. Try 60 for starters regarding Christ alone. I can post another 100 other fulfilled prophecies. An atheists nightmare.

****** Then why mention it at all? What complexity with stalagmites by the way? You erroneously tried to use them to support your silly atheistic belief that complex things happen all the time without any designer. Go back up and read what you said. I think it's still there. The sun, moon and stars YOU claim are also the result without any intelligent designer. The problem for you is it did not work at all. They are not complex at all. It's as simple as a dripping, leaky faucet. You sound a little more clear on this comment, but would have been better off just skipping THAT one altogether young lad. You will catch on after getting more debate spanks along the way, I am sure. But I appreciate your effort. That's more than anybody else on this thread could do. See, I can be even be warm to the atheists at times.

Unbelievable there is also a hood, with an outside and inside hood latch that allows you to look at the motor that evolved on its own. All the while fitting perfectly and symmetrically into perfect place. In another incredible act of chance, there is a gas pedal too that when pressed carefully lets that amazingly complex machine (that just happened by chance) to move forward. Of course once you did get in it and realized this amazing machine can actually take you wherever you wish to go, you have another serious problem; whoops, how do you stop it? Big problem. Well lookey here!... there is a BRAKE PEDAL right next to the gas pedal that just so happens to connect to four disc brakes that also are perfectly hitched to brake rotors, and calipers that are coincidentally just perfectly hooked up with those perfectly rounded and symmetrical tires that we already discovered earlier. And through some act of evolutionary coincidence, this braking system has a MASTER CYLINDER that just also happens to have the perfectly positioned brake lines, filled with just the correct kind and correct amount of brake fluid. Of course if it were instead power steering fluid, or transmission fluid or gasoline in them there brake lines it would not work one bit, and may even catch on fire, but since it has the exact consistency needed for brake fluid, it works like a charm. How bout that!

There are several clear windows to look out from as well. Sure need those; glad they just happened to evolve just where they did too. Pretty amazing how the snails and other external forces just happened to get that red shiny paint job only where it is and not on the windows, would have a problem there for sure. And guess what else, inside it has heat and ac and rear defrost and windshield wiper blades, a fuel gauge, temp gauge, tachometer with speedometer, with perfectly located knobs that even say heat and ac and wiper speeds. How did that get here on it's own? Amazing aint it? And for some strange reason it needs to have some little piece of metal to turn the thing on, I believe they call it a KEY. Low and behold there IS a key, with the exact correct notches already in the perfectly located steering wheel. How bout all that, what an amazing coincidence!

Obviously I could continue on with this for pages and pages. I am sure you can see the point. (Try as you may to miss the point), It would be silly, foolish, absurd, outrageous, strange, weird and just impossibly IGNORANT to believe ALL of these things just happened by blind chance, without any intelligence at all, creating one single, ready-to drive Red Chevrolet Corvette. If nobody on this board could be convinced of such a foolish idea with one automobile in the middle of nowhere, how then could people POSSIBLY believe that a FAR, FAR MORE complex universe and earth, filled with far more complicated life (than that single corvette) could possibly just happen by itself, through some evolutionary process, with absolutely no help from an intelligent source anywhere?

The reality is, I would have a better chance of selling somebody on that car that just formed by itself, through abiogenesis (the supposed origination of life from lifeless matter) and then evolved with all the perfect pieces fitting together, than on the UNIVERSE and EARTH itself just happening to make themselves as well as all life forms upon the earth. A human being is far, far more complex that that car. With our immune systems, lymphatic systems, digestive systems, cardio systems with heart chambers and blood vessels, nervous systems, joints, muscles, tendons, brains with billions or neurons, eyes that see, ears that hear, nose that smells, fingers that feel, skin that sweats, mouth that tastes, chews and swallows. Feet, legs, knees that move and bend. Reproductive systems that can create new life etc etc on and on. The complexity of one human being puts that new Corvette to shame. Millions of time more complex. You get a scratch on that new car and you will visiting the body shop. Scratch or hurt yourself, and the body has the ability to actually heal itself. And you really hope to convince me it happened all by chance, with no designer, no intelligence behind it all, some primordial evolutionary soup like process? We haven't even started discussing the complexity and incredible order of our universe yet. Or the earth , how outstandingly complex yet perfectly harmonized it is. Photosynthesis, clouds and rain, the perfect tilt and rotational speed of the earth, perfect location of the sun, the moon, our orbit speed. The atmosphere, ozone layer, perfect amount of oxygen in the air. Gravity, food cycles, fire; all happened by blind chance? No intelligence required? Sorry but you are DEAD IN WATER.

Lets talk about science for just a moment. The science where many get there beliefs that there is NO God, no maker because we cannot prove he exists. If science is so smart and such a trustworthy source, why cannot science then create life from non living matter? It has not been done. EVER. Not only can it not do such a thing as make life from non-living matter, even if all the parts are already there, in human form, animal form or any form, science cannot even GIVE LIFE BACK to the body that lost it prematurely through accidents, disease or any other disaster, or death through natural aging? With all the parts ALREADY TOGETHER, in front of them these scientists, they are still helpless and cannot make LIFE appear. Yet they insist that ALL life as we see it today, just happened by some series of chances, without ANY help from any intelligent source. How reasonable is this? Let me answer that, IT'S NOT.

This is why I believe in an intelligent Creator rather than some evolutionary process. It makes sense. It is reasonable, it is logical and rational. To believe everything we see just happened by itself is none of those things in my sincere and honest opinion. Science cannot feed the poor nor cure the worlds problems either. It has not even cured AIDS, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, alzheimer's, fixed global warming, the ozone layer and tens of thousands of other issues. And people wish to put their trust in science when it comes to believing in a God or not? Sorry, I am not convinced.

There is just no way that it is even remotely possible that ALL of those marvelous features coming together at one time is due to a series of random, evolutionary, unguided chances. When I look at an incredible startlit sky, in my mind there is not a chance that these all happened to be formed by a similar series of just aimless, arbitrary, haphazard, hit-or-miss events; a rolling of the dice if you will. They are extremely organized. They have clearly been PUT there and brought into motion by SOMEBODY.

The many systems that allow life on this earth to exist likewise are organized, they are purposeful, intricate and finely tuned with other systems. Again, by some accidental, casual, fortuitous, stroke of luck? That simply is not reasonable or logical to myself nor most other people. I have examined both sides of the evidence. For me there is just no way these things happened without the guiding hand of intellect. For you and some others they may have come together by chance or in fact did come together by chance. I disagree. I have read the textbooks, have seen the arguments from scientists like Richard Dawkins. I consider such attempts to use abiogenesis/evolution as the explanation to explain how life arose to be far, far-fetched, and one giant stretch after another. Nothing has ever been duplicated. It bypasses the "Every beginning has a Cause" universal principle. It seeks to eliminate God altogether and then build around that premise in what many consider to be embarassing, feeble attempts of explanation. It fails miserably in my opinion and the opinion of billions of others as well.

Folks, this is one reason why the internet is so coooool, everything that is being said, is in PRINT. Just reading what our little atheists have to say is LAUGHABLE here. I feel sorry for them. Seriously. Poor little atheists. They are completely stuck in mud with their beliefs.

I have asked our little atheists to explain just how "DEAD MATTER" turns into "LIVING THINGS". Now read the thread, all of it folks. A lot of comments have been posted. After all of these written posts, THIS IS ALL that the little atheists could come up with in answer to how dead matter turns into living things:

Folks, our little atheists also believe that the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time.

Yep, our little atheists believe that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK. A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond.

Not only do our little atheists BELIEVE THIS HILARIOUS LOAD OF GARBAGE, even though it's only a scientific "hypothesis" (cause it's NEVER been duplicated in ANY CONTROLLED scientific setting, so ain't even a THEORY yet). But then, our little atheists go beyond just believing but now want to show up on this debate thread and CONVINCE OTHERS here to believe this same HILARIOUS LOAD OF GARBAGE.

Folks, like I said, this is why the web is so great today. It's all there in b&w PRINT for everybody to read for many years to come. I will be BOOKMARKING this thread.

Probably all on this site were JW's at one time, myself included. My own story for leaving is posted here if anybody cares to read it. I wrote it as I was still a JW:

What I find difficult to understand is that as JW's, we were probably most very zealous and quite into spiritual things at one time. But why so many EX JW's have decided thanks but no thanks to God altogether is surprising to comprehend. To myself, it really is like the proverbial, "Throwing the baby out with the bath water". I guess many perhaps blame God for the JW experience. Or the JW experience was so repressive that people want nothing to do with anything in terms of an authority figure. I don't know. But I personally am still 100 percent convinced that there is a very capable, caring, loving and just Creator that will soon bring all of these many problems to an end.

This is not based on emotionalism or wishful thinking either. But a belief based on logic and examination as well as what the evidence tells me. At least you folks now know why I believe it makes sense to not give up on God altogether. Life can be beautiful in my opinion. No matter what your circumstances in life, you can still find the good. It is definitely there.

If there is a God, then there is true hope that can be absolutely remarkable. I hope people will at least read what has been presented with an open mind.

I basically spent an entire week on this thread with very little time taking care of other important things. I am self employed too. Also have a wife, kids and dogs that need my time and attention. I have always promised myself not to get too wrapped up in forums like this as well. So, I will bid a fond aloha for now to get back into the normal routine of living and enjoying the things that I do. I do not need the last word, so I am sure you atheists will have a few things to say, but it is the end of the road for me.

I am sure I will see you around though.

Thanks for the interchange.

My best to all,

Vinny
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

Proplog2 says:.."Please quit wasting time cheering your "imagined" victories and **concentrate on the subject**."

from:

http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm

What is the significance of Josephus' references to Jesus? Josephus provides valuable, independent confirmation of the existence, life, and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. Leading scholar Luke T. Johnson offers the following opinion:

Stripped of its obvious Christian accretions, the passage tells us a number of important things about Jesus, from the perspective of a first-century Jewish historian . . . . Jesus was both a teacher and a wonder-worker, that he got into trouble with some of the leaders of the Jews, that he was executed under the prefect Pontius Pilate, and that his followers continued to exist at the time of Josephus' writing.

(Luke T. Johnson, The Real Jesus, pages 113-14).

We have therefore very good reason for believing that Josephus did make reference to Jesus, bearing witness to (a) His date, (b) His reputation as a wonder-worker, (c) His being the brother of James, (d) His crucifixion under Pilate at the information of Jewish rulers, (e) His messianic claim, (f) His being the founder of the tribe of Christians, and probably, (g) the belief in His rising from the dead.

(F.F. Bruce, op. cit., page 112).

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/mq12.html

Jewish authors recognize the miraculous character of some of Jesus' works.

1. Josephus.

Josephus is the earliest witness we have to the miracle-working of Jesus.

"The reconstructed neutral Testimonium also provides evidence about the ministry of Jesus. Josephus calls Jesus 'a wise man.' Note that this characterization is directly linked first to Jesus' miracles, then to his teachings. "He was a worker of amazing deeds" is an explicit characterization of Jesus' ministry as a miracle-worker, with stress on the effect those deeds had on others ("amazing"). Again, there is no detail; what kind of miracles Jesus worked, Josephus does not say. "

6. Hierocles wrote a piece on Apollonius and made several references to Jesus' miracles:

Interestingly enough he does not deny the reality of the miracles…Julian does not question the reality of the miracles, but asserts that they were ineffective in changing his audience…Julian's statement about the 'Miracle working and fabrication of the gospels' indicates that he could question the veracity of the gospel narratives, but in general he does not seem to question the belief that Jesus performed miracles.

Josephus affirms that Jesus worked miracles.

Early hostile Jewish tradition--in Justin and the Rabbinics--manifest the memory that Jesus did works of a miraculous nature.

The hostile Graeco-Roman writers [Celsus, Porphyry, Hierocles, Julian] accept that some of Jesus' miraculous works actually occurred.

There are two strands of independent, extra-biblical tradition that support the historicity of one specific NT miracle: The Feeding of the 5000.

The general trends and patterns in post-Jesus G-R literature and popular belief are easily explained (and perhaps 'best explained' or 'only explained') by the widespread acceptance by the Roman Empire that a real human in recent history (Jesus) had actually performed credible, 'sane', and non-bizarre miracles.

There ARE indications from extra-biblical sources which suggest that (some of) the miracle stories reflect actual historical events.

Even those who rejected Him acknowledged that He had unusual powers. Rather than deny Jesus' miracles, His enemies accounted for them by saying that He did them with the aid of the devil (Matt. 12:24).

Many books outside of the bible (Quran, Hippocrates, Apocrypha books etc.) have detailed descriptions of Jesus as well.

Cornelius Tacitus:

Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.

Lucian of Samosata:
Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.

Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].

Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.

Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.

Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead!

The four Gospels:
The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels.

Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously.

I posted many VERY SPECIFIC reasons why I believe it is very POSSIBLE the bible is inspired of God. I notice you did not mention that PORTION of my post. And you state an opinion here, with NOTHING to back it up anywhere. What kind of debate contribution is that? This is just too sad for the little atheists.

Anti Christs reply to my quote:

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

EX 21:7-11 A father can sell a daughter into slavery to pay a debt. A daughter sold into slavery is not released at the end of six years as is an ordinary male slave.

EX 21:20-21 A slave owner is to be punished if he strikes his slave and the slave dies shortly thereafter. If the slave lives a day or to and then dies, the slave owner is not to be punished. A slave is the same as money to his owner.

Now I find it weird wen people who believe the bible is from a LOVING god ignore these verses.

For the relevant background see Num 22, 23, 24, Num 25:1-3, and Gen 15:16

The Midianites were half brothers to the Israelites and were on friendly terms.

Midianite leaders join with Moab to incite against Israel # Nu 22:4. The Midian princes had also allied with Sihon king of the Amorites (Josh 13:21).

Midianite leaders together with the Moabite leaders: Sent for Balaam to curse Israel # Nu 22:5-7, God would not curse but would only bless Israel.

Moabites and Midianites seduced Israel to idolatry and immorality # Nu 25:1-18 as a means to get God to judge his own people.

God first judged his own people severely and 24,000 died.

The reason for killing the Midianites was given in Num 25:17-18, "because they treated you as enemies".

The reason for killing the women is given in Num 31:15-16, they seduced the men into idolatry and immorality resulting in a plague in which 24,000 died.

As for the boys they would have died anyway because there would be no one to look after them. Given the option of a slow death from hunger and thirst, clearly God chose the merciful option of a quick death. Had he allowed them to live among the Israelites they would take revenge later when they became men. If you're going to do the job do it right. The Moabites would probably have used the boys for child sacrifice (by fire) as was their practice.

He was clearly merciful to the 32,000 virgin girls, after all he spared their lives.

Our text says nothing about slave-whores? See Deu 21:11.

Prostitution was against the law.

In the context of ancient Near East (ANE) bronze-age culture of ~1500 BC it was either the fledgling nation of Israel or the Midianites. The future of God's chosen people was at stake.

Evidently they did not kill ALL the Midianites because they remained a thorn in the side, see Judg 7:12 etc etc.

Further we should note that the God who gives life has the right to take it (Job 1:21).

The bottom line is that the Midianites were on friendly terms with the Israelites but the leaders joined with those who wanted to destroy Israel and treated them as enemies. The children suffered because of bad decisions made by the parents. Something common to all life.

First of all, there was no ‘test for virginity’ needed/used. In spite of the elaborate/miraculous one created by the later rabbi’s (ingenious, but altogether unnecessary) using the Urim and Thummim (!), the ‘test for virginity’ in the ANE was a simple visual one:

Was the female pre-pubescent?
Was the female wearing any attire, jewelry, or adornments required for/associated with virginity for that culture?
Was the female wearing any attire, jewelry, or adornments required for/associated with non-virginity for that culture (e.g., veil indicating married status)?

Because virginity was generally associated with legal proof for blood-inheritance issues in ancient cultures (e.g., land, property, kinship, relationships), virginity itself was often marked by some type of clothing (e.g., the robe of Tamar in 2 Sam 13) or by cosmetic means (cf. the Hindu ‘pre-marriage dot’); as was more typically non-virginal married status (e.g., veils, headwear, jewelry, or certain hairstyles). Of course, non-virginal unmarried status (e.g., temple prostitutes and secular prostitutes) were also indicated by special markings or adornments (e.g. jewelry, dress—cf. Proverbs 7.10; Hos 2.4-5).

For example, the erotic art of the ANE shows a consistent difference in hairstyles between women and sacred prostitutes:

“In fact, the physical characteristics of the women on the [erotic] plaques are totally different from those of other female representations in Mesopotamian and Syrian art. As with the clay figurines, they are frequently naked and their hair is loose—none of these traits is to be found in statues or seals that represent women...These groups [associations of cultic prostitutes] were defined by a generic name [the ‘separated ones’], while their specific names of individual associations hinted at their garments, which were particularly luxurious, or odd, their coiffure, or to their general appearance, which distinguished them from other women.” [OT:CANE:2526]

Some of these patterns varied by culture/age:

“Once married, women were not veiled in Babylonia. Legal texts imply that married women were veiled in Assyria.” [OT:DLAM:135]

“The bride was covered with a veil that the groom removed. Married women were not veiled in Babylonia but seem to have had a special headgear; legal texts, however, suggest that married women were veiled in Assyria.” [OT:CANE:489]

In other words, the process of identifying the females who were (a) not married and (b) not prostitutes, either sacred or secular, would have been relatively straightforward—at the precision level required by the event.

The word "desire" here is NOT one of sexual attraction, but of delight and love -- which may obviously include or involve sexual attraction, but does not require it! It is the same word used in Deut. 7:7: "The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people.

Antichrist quotes vinny:..."The bible's statement that the earth is "ROUND", and that it "HANGS UPON NOTHING", though men at that time believed the earth was FLAT, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than MERE MEN.

Antichrist reply to my quote:.. "Round does not mean sphere. Wen you look at the sun and the moon you see that they are round. Not all people in that time believed the earth was flat. You should do more reseach on history and ancient belief."

The many PROPHECIES written that had exact fulfillments adds even more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is "ROUND", and that it "HANGS UPON NOTHING", though men at that time believed the earth was FLAT, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than MERE MEN. Are all of these just mere COINCIDENCES? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not just a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment. This is very compelling to myself and to billions today.

Bible prophecies are an atheists NIGHTMARE, Here are just some fulfilled prophecies.

1. Born of the seed of woman
Gen 3:15
Gal 4:4

2. Born of a virgin
Isa 7:14
Mt 1:18-25

3. Seed of Abraham
Gen 22:18
Mt 1:1

4. Seed of Isaac
Gen 21:12
Lk 3:23+34

5. Seed of Jacob
Num 24:17
Lk 3:34

6. Seed of David
Jer 23:5
Lk 3:31

7. Tribe of Judah
Gen 49:10
Rev 5:5

8. Family line of Jesse
Isa 11:1
Lk 3:32

9. Born in Bethlehem
Mic 5:2
Mt 2:1-6

10. Herod kills the children
Jer 31:15
Mt 2:16-18

Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled

11. He pre-existed creation
Mic 5:2
1 Pet 1:20

12. He shall be called Lord
Ps 110:1
Acts 2:36

13. Called Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 7:14
Mt 1:22-23

14. Prophet
Deut 18:18-19
Acts 3:18-25

15. Priest
Ps 110:4
Heb 5:5-6

16. Judge
Isa 33:22
Jn 5:22-23

17. King
Ps 2:6
Jn 18:33-37

18. Anointed by the Spirit
Isa 11:2
Mt 3:16-17

19. His zeal for God
Ps 69:9
Jn 2:15-17

Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled:

20. Preceded by a messenger
Isa 40:3
Mt 3:1-3

21. To begin in Galilee
Isa 9:1-2
Mt 4:12-17

22. Ministry of Miracles
Isa 35:5-6
Mt 9:35;11:4

23. Teacher of parables
Ps 78:1-4
Mt 13:34-35

24. He was to enter the temple
Mal 3:1
Mt 21:10-12

25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey
Zech 9:9
Mt 21:1-7

26. Stone of stumbling to Jews
Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22
1 Pet 2:6-8

27. Light to Gentiles
Isa 49:6
Acts 13:46-48

The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled:

28. Betrayed by a friend
Ps 41:9
Jn 13:18-27

29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver
Zech 11:12
Mt 26:14-15

30. 30 pieces thrown in Temple
Zech 11:13
Mt 27:3-5

31. 30 pieces buys potters field
Zech 11:13
Mt 27:6-10

32. Forsaken by His disciples
Zech 13:7
Mk 14:27+50

33. Accused by false witnesses
Ps 35:11+20-21
Mt 26:59-61

34. Silent before accusers
Isa 53:7
Mt 27:12-14

35. Wounded and bruised
Isa 53:4-6
1 Pet 2:21-25

36. Beaten and spit upon
Isa 50:6
Mt 26:67-68

37. Mocked
Ps 22:6-8
Mt 27:27-31

38. Fell under the cross
Ps 109:24-25
Jn 19:17; Lk23:26

39. Hands and feet pierced
Ps 22:16
Jn 20:24-28

40. Crucified with thieves
Isa 53:12
Mt 27:38

41. Prayed for enemies
Isa 53:12
Lk 23:34

42. Rejected by His own people
Isa 53:3
Jn 19:14-15

43. Hated without cause
Ps 69:4
Jn 15:25

44. Friends stood aloof
Ps 38:11
Lk22:54;23:49

45. People wag their heads
Ps 22:7;109:25
Mt 27:39

46. People stared at Him
Ps 22:17
Lk 23:35

47. Cloths divided and gambled for
Ps 22:18
Jn 19:23-24

48. Became very thirsty
Ps 22:15
Jn 19:28

49. Gall and vinegar offered Him
Ps 69:21
Mt 27:34

50. His forsaken cry
Ps 22:1
Mt 27:46

51. Committed Himself to God
Ps 31:5

Lk 23:46
52. Bones not broken
Ps 34:20
Jn 19:32-36

53. Heart broken
Ps 69:20;22:14
Jn 19:34

54. His side pierced
Zech 12:10
Jn 19:34+37

55. Darkness over the land
Amos 8:9
Lk 23:44-45

56. Buried in rich man's tomb
Isa 53:9
Mt 27:57-60

57. Raised from the dead
Ps 16:8-11
Acts 2:24-31

58. Begotten as Son of God
Ps 2:7
Acts 13:32-35

59. Ascended to God
Ps 68:18
Eph 2:8-10

60. Seated beside God
Ps 110:1
Heb 1:3+13

In particular, I always appreciated this one: The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Bible passage: Micah 5:2

Written: sometime between 750-686 BC. Fulfilled: 5 BC

In Micah 5:2, there is the prophecy that reveals that Bethlehem would be the birthplace of the Messiah.

For Christians, the prophecy is very powerful in a very simple way. It eliminates all other cities and towns throughout the world as a place in which the Messiah could be born. It narrows the possibilities to one tiny village just south of Jerusalem.

And throughout the span of the past 27 centuries, from the days of the prophet Micah up through the present time, Bethlehem is credited as being the birthplace for only one person who is widely known throughout the world. And that person is Jesus Christ.

The New Testament books of Matthew and Luke list Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus. Matthew 2:1-6 describes the birth of Jesus as the fulfillment of Micah's prophecy.

Is it POSSIBLE then, that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. And If so, if it IS from God Himself, this Supreme Grand Designer, then the very question as to how life arrived is ANSWERED. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these very things that we see today. No SOUP-LIKE conditions that somehow, some way evolved into the beautiful yet complex and purposeful systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened as well in the future. It talks about Everlasting Life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his or her life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and PERMANENTLY. That is a beautiful hope to me. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.

For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable.

You see to many it is an old book, and I can respect that. But to myself and many, many others, it is much, much more than this. There are genuine answers and a real positive hope for those that do believe what it contains.

Yet even WITHOUT THE BIBLE, the idea that all of these amazingly complex features simply came to exist on their very own, without any help from a higher Intellect is just not acceptable, believable or even POSSIBLE to me. Every design has a designer. Universally proven as fact. Yet somehow you want to throw that out the window because you don't believe in God and you are adamant that such a God just could not exist. At least agnostics open the door for the possibility and even believe it is probable. You say NO WAY. That EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING that we see out there today arose either from some self-replicating polymer, which arose from DEAD MATTER, from sosme PRIMORDIAL SOUP-like quagmire, all on it's own, without any guiding force WHATSOEVER. That the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time. And that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK. A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond.

Furthermore, this thread is about ATHEISM not about the bible.

Atheism is The belief that there is NO God at all. Where are YOUR comments then, answering my many issues presented on that subject? My arguments are sure up there, all over this thread. Where are YOURS then?

Here, I will help you so you can't be too confused:

1- Antichrist, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.

2- Antichrist, how does it feel believing that red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own?

3- Antichrist, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today?

4- Antichrist, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?

5- Antichrist, what does it say to you when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

I'm back.

Dannyboys reply to vinny:..."Thank you for that concession."

But let's discuss just WHY God may allow these situations to exist for a moment anyway. While it is true that nobody enjoys suffering, pain and the like, it is also true that these conditions can help develop desirable qualities in the individuals that experience them. In fact the scriptures says that Jesus LEARNED OBEDIENCE and other desirable qualities through his difficult times and sufferings while on the earth. *If* God is the Creator of all things, and if he allowed his only begotten SON to take the beatings and persecution that he did, then obviously SOME GOOD can also be the result by allowing these less than desirable situations to exist today as well.

In support of this, James Chapter 1:2-4 tells the reader, "to consider it all joy when you meet with various trials, knowing that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." So once again we can see some value in God's eyes by allowing trialsome conditions and situations to exist. Just because we humans may not fully understand exactly WHY God has allowed certain things to take place, does not mean that he does not exist at all. This may be some kind of opportunity for humans to gain an inner strength, perhaps a greater appreciation for when life is better, free from all these problems plaguing mankind. When I had a very serious staph infection earlier last summer, I was very scared and worried for a few days. However, When I knew I made it out of the woods, safely, I was really happy to be alive. My appreciation had ACTUALLY GROWN through that experience. The existence OF these problems however, does not just automatically discount or deny God's VERY existence. At least not in my mind. HE has simply decided to allow these conditions to exist at this time, for reasons, that are not crystal clear to humans. And again, he has promised to permanently remove these negative features that affect life today.

Life would have hope. Eternal life under wonderful conditions is at least possible.

He asks that we search for Him, walk with Him and help others come to know about Him.

In return, everlasting life with no pain, no suffering or even death.

That sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

I will reply to the two the last two soon. Time for that swim...

All the best,

Vinny
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

More TROUNCING of the little atheists.

You: "I regect that the corvette could have formed by chance, it must have been designed."

Me: "OK if you say so, it didn't form by chance at all, but it wasn't designed either. It just simply always existed, it didn't have a beggining, therefore I'm exempt from having to explain it. Hah, I win, I'll go gloat now because your so ignorant."

****BWAAAHAAHAHAAAHAAHAHA

AAAAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAH

YOU'RE KILLING ME HERE, O' YOUNG 17 yR. OLD ONE."

"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just MADE UP these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found SOMETHING powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the FOREMOST of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers COULD HAVE just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.

The many PROPHECIES written that had exact fulfillments adds even more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is "ROUND", and that it "HANGS UPON NOTHING", though men at that time believed the earth was FLAT, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than MERE MEN. Are all of these just mere COINCIDENCES? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not just a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment. This is very compelling to myself and to billions today.

There is SECULAR testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist AT ALL, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly NOT exaggerated at all. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of MIRACLES where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time right now. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.

Is it POSSIBLE then, that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. And If so, if it IS from God Himself, this Supreme Grand Designer, then the very question as to how life arrived is ANSWERED. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these very things that we see today. No SOUP-LIKE conditions that somehow, some way evolved into the beautiful yet complex and purposeful systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened as well in the future. It talks about Everlasting Life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his or her life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and PERMANENTLY. That is a beautiful hope to me. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.

For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable.

You see LTMD.CORE, to you it is an old book, and I can respect that. But to myself and many, many others, it is much, much more than this. There are genuine answers and a real positive hope for those that do believe what it contains.

Yet even WITHOUT THE BIBLE, the idea that all of these amazingly complex features simply came to exist on their very own, without any help from a higher Intellect is just not acceptable, believable or even POSSIBLE to me. Every design has a designer. Universally proven as fact. Yet somehow you want to throw that out the window because you don't believe in God and you are adamant that such a God just could not exist. At least agnostics open the door for the possibility and even believe it is probable. You say NO WAY. That EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING that we see out there today arose either from some self-replicating polymer, which arose from DEAD MATTER, from sosme PRIMORDIAL SOUP-like quagmire, all on it's own, without any guiding force WHATSOEVER. That the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time. And that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK. A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond.

Complexity does not require a designer. Get over it. Stars form without a miracle or mind, so do stalagmites, and icecicles, crystals, snowflakes. (Which the bible says are also created individually by god and stuck in storehouses, science has shown us how snowflakes form and it has nothing to do with storehouses, or miracles. Just like rainbows are formed by light refraction and not a contract from god.)

"a mound or tapering column rising from the floor of a cave, formed of calcium salts deposited by dripping water and often uniting with a stalactite."

I also read your link. Here let me post it for others to read:

A stalagmite (from the Greek stalagma ("Sta?a?µ?t??"), "drop" or "drip") is a type of speleothem that rises from the floor of a limestone cave due to the dripping of mineralized solutions and the deposition of calcium carbonate. The corresponding formation on the ceiling of a cave is known as a stalactite. If these formations grow together, meeting in the middle, the result is known as a column.
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

Almost Atheist says:.. "I find it amazing that intelligent people can be on completely opposite sides of a spectrum and totally believe that the other side is ridiculously wrong. Vinny, you are obviously amused by the responses of the atheists that have posted. I can't speak for all atheists, but I am personally amused by yours. And yet we are quite probably of similar intelligence, and have reasonably similar life experiences. If you wanted proof of the complexity of the human mind, I think you have it right there."

I wish you well, my friend.

Take care, live well,

Dave

: )

vinny
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

TROUNCING cont...

****** Now, there is not ONE SINGLE CASE where I state Albert Einstein believed in a "PERSONAL" God, or in the BIBLE. What I stated (which IS TRUE) is that one of the most famous physicists known, believed that there was A GOD, A Designer of all the things we see today. He was clearly **NOT AN ATHEIST** as you folks are. And HE is the one that stated this fact directly.

And just WHAT IS an Atheist, which Einstein himself CLARIFIED, (in print) that he was NOT?

atheism |'a?e?iz?m| |?e??i'?z?m| |?e????z(?)m|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist.

Einstein DID NOT believe in Atheism. Atheism is the belief that God does NOT EXIST. Wake up Terry and smell the coffee. You seem to strike out quite a bit lately.

Your little, "Vinny is being dishonest", and "Einstein was just using metaphors" just got SQUASHED by EINSTEIN HIMSELF. Once again, this is why I love the world wide web folks. It's all in PRINT. What Terry said is there for all to read, and then what Einstein himself said makes Terry have those words for lunch . If Terry has big boot prints on his forehead, then we all know whose foot they came from.

I do agree with Almost Atheist that Einstein is just one man's opinion, and so what? He was wrong about other things throughout his life. Still, his "God does not play dice with the universe", sums up what I personally believe as well as many others today. It simply corroborated my own thoughts and comes from a very well-respected expert in that field of study.

Gumby DIES trying.
142
The Need To Question Atheism
by The wanderer in
1. jw
2. friends
 the need to question atheism this need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals.

on this board that subscribe to such.

the questions stated are not for some.
Vinny

TROUNCE TIME!

I have asked our little atheists to explain just how "DEAD MATTER" turns into "LIVING THINGS". Now read the thread, all of it folks. A lot of comments have been posted. After all of these written posts, THIS IS ALL that the little atheists could come up with in answer to how dead matter turns into living things:

Folks, our little atheists also believe that the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time.

Yep, our little atheists believe that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK. A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond.

Not only do our little atheists BELIEVE THIS HILARIOUS LOAD OF GARBAGE, even though it's only a scientific "hypothesis" (cause it's NEVER been duplicated in ANY CONTROLLED scientific setting, so ain't even a THEORY yet). But then, our little atheists go beyond just believing but now want to show up on this debate thread and CONVINCE OTHERS here to believe this same HILARIOUS LOAD OF GARBAGE.

Folks, like I said, this is why the web is so great today. It's all there in b&w PRINT for everybody to read for many years to come. I will be BOOKMARKING this thread.

Your "polymers" IS THE MEAT in my opinion. Which is why I focused on that portion. THAT was the only specific answer presnted to just how life arrived from dead matter on the entire thread. And I had no choice but to BURY YOU with such a lame reply as that. Sure, all LIFE, in all of its diversity, with all of its complexity is the result of those polymers replicating. heh

AAAAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAH

There is NO LOGIC and NO REASONABLENESS to your claims that all intelligent life and all organized systems and planets and stars galaxies just happened to fall into place without any intelligent force behind it.

AGAIN, There is just no way that it is even remotely possible that ALL of those marvelous features coming together at one time is due to a series of random, evolutionary, unguided chances. When I look at an incredible startlit sky, in my mind there is not a chance that these all happened to be formed by a similar series of just aimless, arbitrary, haphazard, hit-or-miss events; a rolling of the dice if you will. They are extremely organized. They have clearly been PUT there and brought into motion by SOMEBODY.

The many systems that allow life on this earth to exist likewise are organized, they are purposeful, intricate and finely tuned with other systems. Again, by some accidental, casual, fortuitous, stroke of luck? That simply is not reasonable or logical to myself nor most other people. I have examined both sides of the evidence. For me there is just no way these things happened without the guiding hand of intellect. For you and some others they may have come together by chance or in fact did come together by chance. I disagree. I have read the textbooks, have seen the arguments from scientists like Richard Dawkins. I consider such attempts to use abiogenesis/evolution as the explanation to explain how life arose to be far, far-fetched, and one giant stretch after another. Nothing has ever been duplicated. It bypasses the "Every beginning has a Cause" universal principle. It seeks to eliminate God altogether and then build around that premise in what many consider to be embarassing, feeble attempts of explanation. It fails miserably in my opinion and the opinion of billions of others as well.

My reasons for why there must be a Creator are plainly listed all over this thread. I have been accused of filibustering in fact. THAT is how much of this stuff is mine, from my own words. I've explained how life arrived, in detail. WHERE ARE YOUR ANSWERS FOLKS? "POLYMERS" and "I DON'T KNOW" AIN'T GONNA CUT IT.

**** Why the need to put my name up in big bold lights like this? I just replied in the order from when I last commented, and nothing was from you. You were much better off too when I simply IGNORED your original comment from much earlier back. But now that you want to push the issue, I am afraid it will not look too good for you Props. Your comment was simply out in left field. It was irrelevant to this discussion. It makes little sense then and now.

First of all let's go back and find what you commented on, and are whining about my ignoring you about.

Proplog2 said this:... "I am an atheist because the concept of an almighty omnisicence entity is incoherent. There is NO way that a finite mind can possibly determine the ultimate act of power or omnicence that would serve as proof. Suppose an entity cured a sports arena full of down syndrome children. Can you conceive of an act greater than that? Yes. It's like stating the biggest number.
You can never know if the miracle you are beholding is being performed by the "almighty" God or simply a "stronger than human entity"