Posts by Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

Undisfellowshipped writes: "Well, only one side CAN be right. They can't both be right. Jesus can't BE God and NOT BE God."

**** If a believer in and follower of Christianity has a slight misunderstanding as to what exact role The Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit actually has, then are you saying such an individual will lose out on life?

Even (((IF))) they are doing everything they can to walk in Jesus' steps to the very best of their ability?

What I am saying is that for those that believe Jesus is God's son, separate from God Himself, but believe he is subject to the Father and independent of Him; that such people will not be destroyed if the bible is true.

Do you disagree?

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

Undisfellowshipped whines: " Let me start by saying that I am disappointed and upset when I read certain people's comments that it doesn't matter what we believe about the identity or nature of Jesus and His Father."

**** Nonsense.

You want to try to sell me on the fact that a sincere, dedicated bible believing worshiper of God and follower of Jesus couldn't possibly come to the conclusion that Jesus is NOT EQUAL to the Father based on these scriptures?

While Jesus was on earth:

John 14:28

28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

And After the thousand years when Jesus is in Heaven:

1 Corinthians 15:26-28

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God [1] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

And many more like these.

Same with Reniaa.

There are MANY verses that support Jesus is more than what JW's make him out to be. BOTH SIDES have just as convincing arguments. There are literally hundreds of verses that support both sides of the argument. It's as if both sides become pharisaical in trying to prove ONLY THEY are right. The proper, healthier approach is to say, "I believe this" or , "I believe that"... and here's why. But for you to fight, bicker and quarrel ((( for years at a time ))) over the same old boring Trinity nonsense (while the other side is gonna get destroyed) is what gives all of this Christianity deal A BAD NAME. You folks are all embarrassing yourselves. Is worth reading only for a good laugh. Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

Reniaa writes: "I posted responses on youtube to the scriptures Jim used which were not accepted so it is clear only positive unchallenging responses are allowed, hmmm I would respect you more if you allowed the apposing viewpoints to stand but thats life."

**** It's funny you say that Reniaa. Because the very same thing you whine about here is exactly what you get in watchtower land all the time. At assemblies, watchtower studies, book studies, experiences and anywhere else for that matter. Only positive, unchallenged watchtower in a good light rhetoric nonsense.

In fact, because I simply disagreed on blood, and presented FACTS that showed how bad a WT policy blood is, I was then told I MUST AGREE with the written JW blood policy that is current light; or I had to disassociate or be disfellowshipped out.

How's THAT for "only positive, unchallenged responses"?

And then you get to be judged, labeled and shunned, by all JW's for the rest of your life (including the kid I raised since he was 6).

But for some reason, I bet Reniaa is okay when it comes to WT policies like that which forbid anything critical or challenging. I think they call that a double standard. What you say Reniaa?

Hey Reniaa, just remember Jehovah was never behind any of THIS: http://www1.tip.nl/~t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

Yep, the printed page tells it like it is.

MANY PAGES.

Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

This is why trinity threads are boring waste of time. Nothing gets accomplished. Christians judge other christians on just what exact role Jesus has and all think they are right.

Amazing nonsense.

Trinity threads seem to have the same people on them every time.

You see Chalam, if you think non-trinitarians are all going to be destroyed (even if they are sincere, loyal, dedicated worshipers of God and followers of Jesus), then this is the kind of nonsense that sours people on religion in general. Christians judging and condemning other Christians for what? A slight misunderstanding of what exact role each has?

On the other hand If you think that non-trinitarian sincere worshipers of God and followers of Jesus will get life (as you stated) then why waste all this time on trinity nonsense?

I call that a lose lose deal whichever way you go.

And what's funny here is you have chosen both directions in your replies. Just read.

And my replies on both of your flip flopping answers stand.

Anyway, it's late and I'm done with this one.

Trinity is a true waste of time and why most folks here rarely bother.

Now carry on you Christian Trinity fighters! Hey, maybe one of you can win a point tomorrow.

Over and OUT!

Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

So Chalam, are you changing up your story or not? You said if one is born again, even though they believe Jesus is not equal to the Father, that they get life.

Now above, you seem to be singing a new tune.

What's the real deal here?

All this bickering stuff does is make religion look pretty sorry.

Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

You see, these are the very kinds of things that give religion a bad rap.

There are arguments (among all Christian faiths and individual Christians against other christians all over the world) about these kinds of things (trinity, holy spirit, born again, rapture, tithing, sin, heaven, hell) and much more.

It turns people OFF.

And then you have all the 1.4 Billion Muslims that will be destroyed if they do not become Christian.

Only the Muslims think that if all the Christians do not become Muslim, then they will be destroyed.

And then we have the Mormons, who claim they alone are the true church. (Trust me, I have the emails and spoken to many).

But then we have the Jews thinking they are still God's chosen people today.

And then we have Jehovah's Witnesses who think all of the above; Muslims, Mormons, Jews and even other Christians along with Buddhists, Hindus and more are all going to get THE AXE. And only they get to make it.

You see folks this is exactly why many people say forget religion.

I understand.

Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

I missed your follow up reply. So, you say if one is born again, regardless of whether they believe God is a trinity or not, they get LIFE in your view.

So why bother then with trinity if it does not matter?

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

Well, this is perhaps as straight an answer as I'll get from you. You wrote : "I agree, God will not give us a theology test before we can enter the pearly gates. However, the test is if we know Jesus and He knows us, that is all the counts." **** So I can then assume you are saying that even if somebody does not believe in the trinity, but from their own reading of the bible believe that Jesus is subject to the Father; that as long as they are sincerely trying to be a real christian, then that would be good enough for God. So then why so much fighting about trinity this and trinity that? Why not simply focus on exactly what you just wrote showing what's really important here? You see, this is what I've been saying all along. TOO MUCH time and arguments have been on the trinity nonsense. There are far more important issues to discuss. Non-trinitarian Christians believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit. Trinitarian Christians believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. What EXACT ROLE each plays is far less important than LIVING YOUR LIFE AS A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST TO THE VERY BEST OF YOUR ABILITY. This is why these threads are a bore for many people today. You are arguing over minor details, IMO. Sure, Watchtower is not what it tells people it is. And most JW's have no idea what the entire JW picture looks like. People die because of these policies. Families are broken because of this religion. They are very arrogant in their views. Their past is full of holes, mistakes and embarrassments. And I have no problems confronting anybody that claims otherwise. But trinity is not what does it for most people that I have ever met. And if you think a believer and follower of Jesus can get everlasting life, while not believing in the trinity, then you've just made my point. Thanks for answering the question. All the best, Vinny

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

Hi Chalam, if you read my original post you would see I touched on many of those things already. Here, I'll share them again:

The bottom line, in my opinion, is this: Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or not; Whether the Holy Spirit is Personal or Impersonal; Whether there is a burning Hell or eternal sleep-like non existence; whether there will life in Heaven itself or on a Paradise Earth; whether the 144,000 is literal or figurative and probably another 100 different things I could list here, what REALLY matters here is that people, as professed followers of Christ, live each day of their lives trying to imitate him as best they possibly can. Applying His teachings in their life. The Golden Rule for example. The Sermon on the Mount teachings. Cultivating the Fruitage of the Spirit. Being like the "Good Samaritan". Showing Love to all mankind. Working more on humility. Being less judgmental. More patient, more forgiving, more helpful and loving as well as another 100 other things I could post here. These things are what really matters. Whatever these other things end up being, we can all know one thing for sure, if the bible is true it will be wonderful. Whether life after death is in Heaven or on a Paradise Earth, it will be fine with me and probably anybody. Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or subject to Him, it should not change people's love for either of them. Just focusing on being a True Christian is what worship should be all about. The rest will all be fine, whatever it turns out to be. I'll be sure to take it. If I am ever given the opportunity. I have not dug my heels in on any of this. I cannot even guaranty the bible is true. There are mistakes in it. And I do believe that this Trinity issue should not divide christians the way that it does today. I do not believe that if a christian believes that Jesus IS equal to the Father in all things, yet is still a "Believer", while also applying Christ's teachings in their personal life, helping others to do the same etc, that they are DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION as the JW's teach and believe.

**** Back to current.

But you see Chalam, you are sounding like a politician now and dancing all around the question that was asked many posts ago, and many times now. Why can't you just answer the question straight up? It's a simple enough question.

If a human being has what you consider a wrong understanding about Jesus' exact role, and believes Jesus is not equal to the Father, but rather is subject to the Father (though is doing everything else a Christian ought to), will that person still be granted everlasting life or not?

It's time to Answer up!

No more dancing now. I'm waiting for a yes or no answer. Surely you have an opinion, right?

347

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday in

personally i hate bible ping-pong.

i don't think it ever gets anywhere, i don't think it solves anything and i don't think the participants ever make any head room.

however i will say in this case, i have been proven wrong.

Vinny

So, do you think a professed Christian that believes the bible is God's word, follows Jesus steps, prays to God sincerely etc, but who also believes Jesus is not equal to God, would also fall under the category of those that will not make it?

I understand about missing the mark, living double lives, being hypocrites etc not making it. But, does, in your opinion, a believer that is none of those things, yet is one who has nonetheless concluded that Jesus is not equal to the Father, and prays to the father through Jesus instead; will such an individual (in your opinion) be granted everlasting life or not?

I am trying to get you to answer the question at hand. But you seem to be slipping around it many times. I realize this is probably not easy for you to say what you really think. But go ahead and tell me what you do believe. If you don't mind.

Thanks again,

v